J. W.'s ordered to pay more than $20 million

[Joey]

Also, becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses doesn't give a predator easy access to children. The very notion is retarded.

Bob, i have to disagree with you to a point. I grew up in the truth (30 years ago) and it was not uncommon for my parents to let me work in field service with others, even going on calls or studies with them. Some of the brothers would take the young ones out to do fun things, like play sports or catch a movie. We sometimes take for granted that not all in the truth are genuine and let our guard down. Much the same way that some women will leave their purse at their seat at the hall when they would never do it anywhere else. Most of the time its safe, but maybe that 1% of the time it could be stolen. Parents need to protect their kids, even within the congregation.

I wholeheartedly agree that parents need to protect their kids, even in the congregation, and it is scriptural to boot.

The point I was trying to make is that a person does not have increased access to children, easier access to children, or uninhibited access to children by becoming a one of Jehovah's people, as if there were some flaw in our arrangement as the apostates who ride the false wave of child sex abuse would like to persuade others to believe. Child sex abuse is not an organizational issue, per se.

A predator would fair better in some occupation that puts them in close proximity with numerous potential victims. We would not rank very high on such a list.

Yeah, you know we don't even have Church buses ,Vacation Bible schools or Sunday schools where the kids are seperated from their parents. We drive our kids to meetings and keep them right with us during meetings.

[Brother_Bliss]

What happened to the posting I did earlier on the other sex abuse scandal? I never got an email, but when I tried to click it it said I didn't have permission.

It's in the recycle bin. Remember that new posts in this forum get scraped and emailed to mailing list subscribers every night. This is a carry-over feature from the former blog which focused on positive news stories about Jehovah's people. Our newsletter subscribers are not interested in negative material about us. There are plenty of unsavory sites on the internet they can go for that, and this will not be one of them.

One sex abuse story is enough, and this one is quite sufficient because it's "big", at least in appearance. The one you posted isn't even a legal case, but just a victim sounding off in the local paper. On top of that, the article features much dialogue from a notable apostate, along with links to his apostate site. We don't allow that here per the forum rules and direction from the faithful slave.

[Greenfield]

A predator would fair better in some occupation that puts them in close proximity with numerous potential victims. We would not rank very high on such a list.

Yeah, despite what some apostates may say, I doubt if any predators would be interested in being a Witness just to find victims. It takes a long time and a lot of convincing the elders and others that you are sincere if you are accepted.

[Bro.David Drake DeLaurento]

A predator would fair better in some occupation that puts them in close proximity with numerous potential victims. We would not rank very high on such a list.

Yeah, despite what some apostates may say, I doubt if any predators would be interested in being a Witness just to find victims. It takes a long time and a lot of convincing the elders and others that you are sincere if you are accepted.

Rick et al....

If you don't think that predators take the time to infiltrate an organization, especially an organization who has millions of involved families, then you obviously have not been in their world and investigated their tactics. Their efforts are patient and cunning. I have known perps who have families for the purposes of sexually molesting their kids they become of age. They are sick and need to be removed from society. Thier crime plays havoc on the victim emotionally, physically and psychologically. I would hear victims stories, especially raped victims being tortured by perps. The screams and thier pleading for thier lives are still burned in my mind. I had to get out of the world because it was the effect it was having on me. So, im not discredting your comment Rick. This is what you know from your own experience. My experience is vastly different from yours and it's reality that I have seen. I can handle thieves, drug dealers and users, and almost every other crime out there, but sexual offenders b.k.a. Pedophiles, I don't tolerate them and my beef with them is personal because of their victims are defenseless and deceived by cunning and confidence. I'm apologize for my harsh statements but this is reality.

Why doe so many crimes against children happen? Its purely Satanical in origin. Satan and his demons have vendetta with Jehovah. Why? Who did Jehovah destroy in the flood? Satan and his demons hybrid children, the Nephilim. How has Satan retaliate? Children sacrifices have been recorded in biblical history, Jeremiah 7:31. Another account is when the famine was so bad in Jersusalem that the women boiled their babies. Look at all the crimes being committed against babies today with the abortion movement, children being mistreated with child abuse, child neglect and so on. Pedophilia has been exposed only because its victims have voiced themselves. The victims are tired of being unheared. Again, I apologize for my harsh language but Satan has made a mess and we all need to be aware of his machinations.

[SOHCAHTOA]

The point I was trying to make is that a person does not have increased access to children, easier access to children, or uninhibited access to children by becoming a one of Jehovah's people, as if there were some flaw in our arrangement as the apostates who ride the false wave of child sex abuse would like to persuade others to believe. Child sex abuse is not an organizational issue, per se.

A predator would fair better in some occupation that puts them in close proximity with numerous potential victims. We would not rank very high on such a list.

I wasn't implying that there is some sort of flaw in our organization. What I met is that cetain people such as religious officials, teachers, and doctors are trusted more with kids. Pedophiles know as trusted they'll have easy access to kids regardless of the religion.

[CMWYW]

Simon,

Do you know who put together the "third witness" site? I just read a great deal of it, and it is a very detailed answer to this issue.

I have a feeling it was a 3 year long joint effort by honest hearted brothers

From the site:-

http://thirdwitness.com/

The purpose of this website is mainly for Jehovah's Witnesses and interested ones who may have been discouraged and stumbled by what opposers are saying on these issues. Indeed there are those who have left the faith as a result of these accusations, some who had a record of faithful service for 30 years or even more. Even some of us who participated in the research and writing of the information presented here were either temporarily taken in by the claims made by opposers on some of these issues or we simply did not know for sure if their claims were true or not. That is why we were determined to do an honest and thorough investigation.

The information presented here is the result of that investigation. It is a collaboration of almost 3 years of research and investigation and covers all three issues definitively and in detail. If you have heard or read the accusations made on these three issues you owe it to yourself to examine the facts and read the information presented here before making a judgment based merely on hearsay or the words of others who are only out to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses regardless of what the documentation and facts actually reveal. If you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses make up God's true organization on earth you will be pleasingly surprised and you will find that opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses have no answer to this information other than their usual rhetoric.

[Joey]

Simon,

Do you know who put together the "third witness" site? I just read a great deal of it, and it is a very detailed answer to this issue.

I have a feeling it was a 3 year long joint effort by honest hearted brothers

From the site:-

http://thirdwitness.com/

The purpose of this website is mainly for Jehovah's Witnesses and interested ones who may have been discouraged and stumbled by what opposers are saying on these issues. Indeed there are those who have left the faith as a result of these accusations, some who had a record of faithful service for 30 years or even more. Even some of us who participated in the research and writing of the information presented here were either temporarily taken in by the claims made by opposers on some of these issues or we simply did not know for sure if their claims were true or not. That is why we were determined to do an honest and thorough investigation.

The information presented here is the result of that investigation. It is a collaboration of almost 3 years of research and investigation and covers all three issues definitively and in detail. If you have heard or read the accusations made on these three issues you owe it to yourself to examine the facts and read the information presented here before making a judgment based merely on hearsay or the words of others who are only out to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses regardless of what the documentation and facts actually reveal. If you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses make up God's true organization on earth you will be pleasingly surprised and you will find that opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses have no answer to this information other than their usual rhetoric.

I just finished reading thirdwitness.com . Many thanks to those who wrote it. This is one of my favorite scriptures... brings me alot of comfort...

(Isaiah 32:18, 19) . . .And my people must dwell in a peaceful abiding place and in residences of full confidence and in undisturbed resting-places.

[rbrown1205]

I have been told that there are links to apostate sites here, although in doing so the site does not encourage apostasy. Also references to letters to the elders have made some uncomfortable, since these are generally confidential.

I am a little uncomfortable about the fact that the makers of the site are not identified anywhere, not even in the site properties file. At least your response tells me that at least one site writer (you) is willing to identify himself.

I would also like to see somethng like this (with appopriate approvals) shouted from the rooftops. We should not be ashamed of who we are and what Jehovah has accomplished through his organization.

[Joey]

I have been told that there are links to apostate sites here, although in doing so the site does not encourage apostasy. Also references to letters to the elders have made some uncomfortable, since these are generally confidential.

I am a little uncomfortable about the fact that the makers of the site are not identified anywhere, not even in the site properties file. At least your response tells me that at least one site writer (you) is willing to identify himself.

I would also like to see somethng like this (with appopriate approvals) shouted from the rooftops. We should not be ashamed of who we are and what Jehovah has accomplished through his organization.

You think Simon was one of the ones who wrote it? He included a quote from the makers of the site I believe.

[CMWYW]

I have been told that there are links to apostate sites here, although in doing so the site does not encourage apostasy. Also references to letters to the elders have made some uncomfortable, since these are generally confidential.

I am a little uncomfortable about the fact that the makers of the site are not identified anywhere, not even in the site properties file. At least your response tells me that at least one site writer (you) is willing to identify himself.

I would also like to see somethng like this (with appopriate approvals) shouted from the rooftops. We should not be ashamed of who we are and what Jehovah has accomplished through his organization.

Hi Roberta, I am not sure where the links to apostate sites are I couldn't find any although certain sites were mentioned that try to slander us.

If you type in jwtalk.net to your search browser then most of the links are apostate sites, the internet is crawling with them unfortunately when you search about anything to do with us. Thirdwitness.com is hated by opposers as it completely refutes their lies they try to pin on us.

I know for sure it is not composed by opposers, even being able to get extra information if I need to from one of the writers of the site which i have done before.. “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?" - Matthew 12:25,26

If Satan refutes one of his darkest weapons against us then he is stupider than i thought.

The last thing the writers would want to do is put their real name out their for all the opposers to see. It doesn't take much for people to find out where you live once people know your name and some brothers are smart when it comes to that kind of thing.

You can also if you want find all the elders letters on the internet if you look. Although I have a feeling the writers actually did not have too and asked the local elders to help them with their research.

I have read the child abuse related part of the website thoroughly and found it although sobering, also encouraging and highly informative. It answers questions that many of us may have (especially at this time) and is constructed in a way that you can read it in an hour or so and understand how we have been consistant and thorough over the years with relation to this issue.

I hope you find it personnaly useful. I don't go around giving everybody I know the site location as most of the time brothers and sisters do not need much of the information that is covered. I however have chosen to be on the web where opposers views are rampant and have the potential to stumble many of my brothers and sisters. I have always been genuinely worried about those that could be stumbled over things like this as their are some big fat lies out their waiting to stumble us.

I did not write any of the site though but I am willing to help others understand our consistant view and way of doing things in relation to this issue if people are getting stumbled over it.

Hope this helps.

Take care your brother

Simon

[LuanaGlobal]

That bad man who was at fault should pay time or money of his own to pay for his crime.

Could there be more attacks on the organization as a whole, yes.

How timely the "Safeguard your heart" provision is.

"Yes, our King is moving ahead to final victory and will soon “complete his conquest.” What a privilege to be moving along with him, knowing that shortly no one will ever again contradict Jehovah’s worshipers when they say: “God is for us”!—Romans 8:31; Philippians 1:27, 28."

WT library

[LizzyJo]

There were a couple of comments about how this case has not even been tried yet ao how can the victim sue.

Remember the OJ case. He was acquitted in the criminal trial and held at fault in the civil trial.

[rbrown1205]

I agree completely. If someone comes into Jehovah's clean organization with the pretext of wanting to be clean by Jesus' blood and dedicated to Jehovah and his righteousness, and then he/she targets the most vulnerable among us, then they should be in prison, even under the prison if possible. So many hateful people intimate that Jehovah's clean organization are to blame for the actions of these lying perpetrators. But, as the site repeatedly states, there IS NO BETTER SYSTEM on this earth for dealing with unrepentant sinners than that followed by Jehovah's Witnesses.

If my brother sees this, I hope that he knows that his caution is entirely understandable (and I see that you are not among the writers, but you just cut and pasted the introduction from the site), as is the caution of the writers of the site, when it comes to not letting their names out there for apostates to persecute them. I know that I am sometimes overly candid about things, and will even disregard the dangers of the internet as means of communication. But our Lord said that we must be cautious as serpents, yet innocent as doves. I also hope that this information, perhaps not as detailed, but clear and straightforward, becomes available to anyone who wants it, but also with the oversight of the faithful slave.

[Willow]

So' date=' will we be required to post on the information board all "registered" sex offenders in the area - or any member in the congregation who was ever convicted of being a sex offender? Will ALL churches have this requirement? [/quote']

My thoughts were running along the same line. In fact, it crossed my mind that if this nonsense goes through, maybe it will become a landmark ruling (precedent setting) that will bring Babylon to her final destruction because she is so full of such sickening abuse and would never be able to protect its members from such conduct!!!

[rbrown1205]

That's a thought. If the elders in all congregations have to make some kind of announcement to the congregation when somebody becomes a Witness or moves into a congregation as to whether a person is a sex offender or pedophile, this should be the case with all religions, and with all clubs and organizations that involve children or other vulnerable persons, like the handicapped. If the courts don't apply this rule of law to everyone, they should not apply it to anyone.

It is a better arrangement what we already have in our congregations - if somebody comes into the congregation, their servoce records go with them, their "publisher card". Any other legally pertinent information about the publisher, if any, also go to the new body of elders, and the elders shepherd the congregation and the publisher discreetly (which means talking and listening to them privately, and counseling them publicly in talks). It is in the literature that certain past activities can disqualify a brother from being used in a responsible or exemplary capacity. If any individual in a congregation wants to find out if, say, a Witness is on some kind of official police list, there is nothing to keep him or her from looking them up.

[Daniel Metz]

Brothers and sisters, I would like to get your views on something I have been thinking about. When this first appeared in the news, I came here and found the link to the court documents at the Alameda County Superior Court site and spent a lot of time reading all the documents. I realized however that doing so was taking a lot of my time for personal study. When I think about Satan's strategy and his "designs", I can imagine that he would like me to be so preoccupied with this matter that I neglect my personal study or even become hesitant to witness, for fear of someone bringing up this matter, when I don't have all the facts as to what really happened.

I have thought that if someone does bring it up, I will say that the decision has been appealed by our lawyers and I will wait to see what the court of appeals says about this. I will say that I don't think all of the facts have come out in the newspaper reports that I have read.

What would you say in the service about this?

[Hallett 82]

Keep your interest simple and uncomplicated.

There are thousands of news stories every day . . we need to be aware but not alarmed about them to remain informed for our ministry.

Don't spend too much time doing background research . .thats the job for journalists and the brothers will keep us informed if we need to be.

The appeals for this case will drag on for years . . ;)

[trottigy]

What would you say in the service about this?

Well, I haven't been asked about this and I imagine it would probably be an apostate who asks, but I would initially give them the benefit of the doubt.

Go with something simple like - "I am very sad to hear anytime someone is abused. I wish it never happened! I know our organization is VERY interested in the safety of our young people. Would you like to see what the Bible says will happen to people who hurt others like this? 1 Cor 6:9-11. Soon things like this will never happen - I am offering this magazine that talks about how - "Announcing Jah's Kingdom" - website on back if you want to know more. Can I return and talk more about that Kingdom? - say tomorrow - this time???????????"

[bohemian]

I haven't seen anything on UK news sources about this, so I imagine it would be rare to have it mentioned in the ministry over here. Nothing so far, at least.

[Daniel Metz]

Thank you, Jan and Jerry.

[Old]

I don’t know why this thread ended in July 2012, but I as a newby I would like to add to it a little.

I think it is fair to conclude that only a few who have commented on this case have read the court record. To do so could be a waste of time and it can really put a knot in your stomach. Candace Conti verses The Watchtower Society … differs from what that most of us understand about jury trials.

I think the most difficult thing to appreciate is that in this case there was no requirement to rule on whether sexual abuse actually took place. The whole issue boils down did we do enough organizationally. The undisputed fact was that as an organization we were ahead of everybody in protecting our children. We were also totally in compliance the law at that time. The argument presented in court was that all our efforts were not enough to prevent the ‘possibility’ of this sort of thing happening, and since Candace totally believes it happened YOU WILL PAY.

Many may not know that as a matter of court record for this case, the plaintiff attornies conspired with her “abuser” to prevent him from testifying and effectively gave him a ‘GET OUT OF JAIL FREE’ card. A written financial agreement was in place between the plaintiff and the so called abuser that he would not testify. Try that in a criminal case and it is ‘GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL, DO NOT PASS GO’. In addition in civil cases the right to subpoena is very limited. His testimony may have set the record straight on some issues.

The majority of the witnesses (Most were Witnesses) testified that the opportunity for the wrong doing did not exist in their congregational arrangement. Her parents also testified that there was no way she and the abuser were allowed to be together alone.

A unanimous jury is not required in a civil case. Finding for the plaintiff requires only nine of twelve of the jurors to find for the plaintiff.

‘Beyond reasonable doubt’ is not a requirement in a civil case.

Obligation placed on the juror is to decide what testimony is more LIKELY true than not true; whether it is TRUE is not the issue.

In my opinion the judge’s instructions to the jury prejudiced the verdict in favor of the plaintiff. (But having said that…. I am not a lawyer. This is in the appeal by the way.)

Many may not know that an appeal was filed August 30, 2013. It makes an interesting read.

Has anybody heard the status of the appeal? Appeals typically take years.

The appeal is a matter of public record, PM me if you are interested. 

[Joe Schmoe]

I would definitely be interested in hearing updates about the appeals process. I really hope that the organization is vindicated.