warning to parents who don't vaccinate

[Jordan]

People all over the spectrum complain about stats (when it suits them) - I've taken stats and people can manipulate the wording of a question to influence how people will answer, or can manipulate the way the results are reported to produce whatever impression they like. Area bias, self selection bias, leading question bias, social desirability bias, etc... Bottom line is it's people inject these methods of lying and cheating, not the math. I'd give examples but Chuck might throw a shoe at me or something

These problems do exist... A similar problem exists in scientific measurements (climate change). This is why there some  major confusion. However, this is what I learned: Stats don't lie, people do. The numbers aren’t wrong. The people are reporting them wrong.

 

 

My teachers favorite saying was "97% of the people using stats are making them up 90% of the time"  (droll math humor)

 

The numbers aren’t being manipulated; the story about the numbers are being manipulated. So when someone tells you, hiding behind his best pocket protector and taped glasses, “statistics can be manipulated to give you any result you want”, he is wrong. He is, there is no doubt about it,  factually wrong. ( I forget the stat on this)...

This whole mindset has been pushed and has infected the world and made them look stupid. Black is white, good is bad etc... (incredibly enough, we were told this would happen in the Bible, hows that for a stat! )

It only takes a few minutes of checking and though to see what is truth and what is lie as far as stats go. The proof is in the pudding... always. The sad part is people would rather quickly take a side, based on a bias or sales pitch, rather then actually do the simple math (and it is simple) to find the truth. People count on you doing that, they count on you being a sucker or lazy.

 

In my humble opinion the greatest living teacher of stats on the planet. Stats made easy to understand... Very easy ... I hope you all enjoy it, he's very good. He's also a hard core eugenics supporter.

http://youtu.be/umFnrvcS6AQ

 

That's my two centavos ...
 

Edited November 15, 2013 by Jordan

[Qapla]

... Bottom line is it's people inject these methods of lying and cheating, not the math. ...My teachers favorite saying was "97% of the people using stats are making them up 90% of the time"  (droll math humor)

 

The numbers aren’t being manipulated; the story about the numbers are being manipulated. ...

 

 

I think we are both making the same point, just using different wording.

 

Like in my example, yes the actual "math" is simple, however, the math supports both conclusions. either 60% said no, or 80% said yes .. depending on how you count the results.

 

In my example, you can see all the responses to the survey and can see where I am manipulating the results .. however, if I only showed you the first 5 responses, you would think the 80% yes answer was accurate .... after all, the math supports it - but then, the math also supports the 60% no response also, if you use all ten answers.

 

Since we do not have access to the "raw" data from most studies, we have no idea if the conclusion is accurate.

[trottigy]

Yes, this is why when reviewing "stats" it is so important to LOOK at the back up info - NOT just the conclusions ones are making about it.

 

Be careful when someone interjects with "several studies show" and then they don't tell you what studies or provide access to them.

 

This is what I LOVE about the Bible - we have both - the expereinces and God's conclusions on those expereinces AND He is trustworthy and not intersted in "spin."

Edited November 15, 2013 by trottigy

[Lin ASL Ebron]

interesting documentary...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ_2BVsfdgI&list=PLHJaSvd6iSSAKJsR1xOVGfHc6h_nhqIJa

[maladee]

put me in the against vaccinations  I have seen what they can do.

[GrumpysWife]

To each side of this argument there is a + and a - . I have seen the results of a sister who was pregnant when the KH had a rash of measles break out. She was not aware she was pregnant. When her son was born, the defects were just horrendous. I helped her care for this little boy for a couple of years and the toll it took on everyone involved was staggering. There are no easy answers in this system when it involves our health problems. We just have to go with our own feelings in the matter and hope that our decisions don't affect others.

 

My son's were not vaccinated, but only because I didn't want to fight my mother in law over it because she was so against them. In order for my sons to get their high school diplomas, they each had to decide whether have them or not because the school refused to hand them out if they didn't. They did. Baby shots and all. I still am not sure how I feel about them, but I don't get flu shots, they scare me. I have never had the flu but Grumpy gets it bad every year.

[Lin ASL Ebron]

I think we're all in agreement that there is no "one size fits all" when referring to human efforts.  Only Jehovah can provide that.  We are so fortunate that our loving Creator gives us a sound mind and wonderful direction from Mother!  We are encouraged to look at available information, reason based on our circumstances and pray to Jehovah for His direction.  In this system, we're subjected to time and unforeseen occurrence, and if all else fails, we have a wonderful hope of life without end and no sickness.

 

It's so encouraging to discuss matters, that the world politicizes, under the context of Bible principles.  We are definitely united but not uniform.  The world demands conformity.  It's only in Jehovah's organization that we find true freedom of choice.

 

Agape'

[trottigy]

I hate to see the children dying (well, really I hate to see ANY die, but it seems especially egregious when the children through no fault of their own become casualties). They are so often the casualties of war  

 

More polio cases confirmed in Syria, WHO says

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/26/world/meast/syria-polio/

 

 

It can be prevented through immunization, but there is no cure. The incidence of the disease has dropped by more than 99% since 1988. It remains endemic in three countries -- Pakistan, Nigeria and Afghanistan -- down from more than 125 countries in 1988.

 

Public health can be among the first casualties of war, as resources are diverted from ensuring clean water supplies and intact sewer lines.

Edited November 26, 2013 by trottigy

[Guest Guest]

Even Jehovah's Faithful and Discreet Slave has evolved its view on vaccines:

 

1931 – “Old Light”

g31 2/4 pp. 293-294 The Sacredness of Human Blood
 

SINCE vaccination has become a topic for discussion, I cannot restrain myself from writing you in regard to this great evil. Every father and mother ought to have a right to say what should be done to the body of their own child; yet the vaccination law reduces the father and mother to mere slavery, almost as bad as the colored people were in, when their children were put up on the block and sold. In many slave-sale cases the mother and father were even forbidden to shed tears.

 

Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood. In Genesis 9:1-17 we read: "And God blessed Noah … And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."

 

This covenant not only involves the entire human family, but also includes every other living creature upon the earth (See Genesis 9:10, 12). So important was this covenant that God placed His bow in the clouds as an everlasting reminder of the danger of its violation.... All reasonable minds must conclude that it was not the eating of the blood that God objected to, but it was bringing the blood of the beast in contact with the blood of man. Not only has man shed the blood of his fellow man unlawfully, but he has taken the body of the beast and unlawfully polluted its blood with poison and afterwards taken this blood and injected it directly into contact with the blood of man, in the name of vaccine and antitoxin. To my mind, this is a violation of the law of God, in the most degrading manner possible to conceive of.... Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does not prevent smallpox. Good food, good water, and sanitary living conditions are the basis of human health. No disease has ever proven this more prominently than smallpox.

 

1952 – New Light!!

wt52 12/15, Questions from Readers

 

Is vaccination a violation of God's law forbidding the taking of blood into the system?-G. C., North Carolina. 

The matter of vaccination is one for the individual that has to face it to decide for himself. Each individual has to take the consequences for whatever position and action he takes toward a case of compulsory vaccination, doing so according to his own conscience and his appreciation of what is for good health and the interests of advancing God's work. And our Society cannot afford to be drawn into the affair legally or take the responsibility for the way the case turns out. 

After consideration of the matter, it does not appear to us to be in violation of the everlasting covenant made with Noah, as set down in Genesis 9:4, nor contrary to God's related commandment at Leviticus 17:10-14. Most certainly it cannot reasonably or Scripturally be argued and proved that, by being vaccinated, the inoculated person is either eating or drinking blood and consuming it as food or receiving a blood transfusion. Vaccination does not bear any relationship to or any likeness to the intermarriage of angelic "sons of God" with the daughters of men, as described in Genesis 6:1-4. Neither can it be put in the same class as described at Leviticus 18:23, 24, which forbids the mingling of humans with animals. It has nothing to do with sex relations. 

Hence all objection to vaccination on Scriptural grounds seems to be lacking. The only proper objection that some persons could raise to it would be on the matter of the health risks involved or of keeping their blood stream clean from diseased matter coming from a foreign source, whether from an animal sore or from a human sore. Medical science, in fact, claims that vaccination actually results in building up the vitality of the blood to resist the disease against which the person is inoculated. But, of course, that is a question for each individual concerned to decide for himself and as he sees it to be Jehovah's will for him.

 

..........................................

 

Just as He does with those who die in 2013 while faithfully obeying by refusing blood products, I’m sure Jehovah remembers faithful brothers, sisters or their children who may have died from a disease that a vaccine would have prevented prior to 1952.  My grandmother still remembers when this change occurred and was grateful to be able to vaccinate my young father.

[rocket]

@Guest

Your post might seem a bit deceptive to some because it leaves out some very important details. First off in the twenties and thirties vaccines were made with live viruses and it is a fact that more people died from the vaccines than would have without it..Secondly, during the 40's and ever since the society made it known that all missionaries going to foreign asignments were to be vaccinated.

I don't think very many people today would stand still for a live virus vaccnation but that was how it was done and the scab was scraped off one person to infect another. Seems to be a topic apostates love to deceive ones with.

[pnutts]

@Guest

Your post might seem a bit deceptive to some because it leaves out some very important details. ...seems to be a topic apostates love to deceive ones with.

In addition - about brothers dying for maintaining their stand on blood products.

 

First of all - the number dying is a lot less than apostates would have everybody believe.

 

Second- how many die from lack of transfusions that would have died even with a transfusion?  That is downplayed.

 

Third -of those few who do die -is it from lack of transfusion or Lack of Timely & Appropriate care? I've seen doctors do nothing! Patients sometime survived in-spite of doctor's lack of care. This is a very big issue.

We hardly ever hear about doctors doing nothing - they state "Our hands were tied and patient died for not receiving a transfusion" when in truth - The doctors did nothing or too little too late and are guilty of letting patient die!

[pnutts]

Forgot to add. Even though our stand on blood transfusions is a matter of Godly Obedience -Evidenced Based Medicine is proving our stand to be a Gold Standard for Medicine.

 

What that means is that patients receive the best care - without the hazards of transfusions without breaking Jehovah's law.

 

Many apostates ignore that All Transfusions are an organ transplant and body rejects them. But this is getting off topic.

[trottigy]

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-protect-yourself-forgotten-disease-coming-across-border

 

Quote

As both a physician and a mother of young children, my perspective on this issue is twofold, blending medical expertise with maternal instinct. 
 
From a medical standpoint, the resurgence of measles underscores the critical importance of vaccination in preventing the spread of infectious diseases. Measles is highly contagious, with the virus capable of surviving in the air and on surfaces for several hours, making containment efforts challenging.  

 

Honestly, I was surprised to see a positive article about vaccinations from a news platform that is often against them. This tells me -> getting vaccinations is critical.

 

note: they blame immigrants for the cause and while we love all people and don't want to demonize anyone, it is quite likely that a group of people trying to escape an oppressive regime are not vaccinated and will likely have issues. I hope they get the help they need AND that soon the Kingdom will take full control of all of Earth’s affairs – Then “no resident will say, ‘I am sick.’ “

[Tortuga]

10 years later...

[trottigy]

5 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

10 years later...

 

Didn't want to start a new thread.

 

 

[Parale]

32 minutes ago, trottigy said:

Honestly, I was surprised to see a positive article about vaccinations from a news platform that is often against them. This tells me -> getting vaccinations is critical.

 

I don't think it is that surprising, after all with Foxnews et al, I believe it wasn't vaccines per se, but rather COVID vaccines specifically.

 

How come a ten-year-old thread? Threads are locked after just one year?? 🤷‍♂️

[Tronora]

I LOVE to read old threads   Keep 'em coming!

[BLEmom]

 

😂

[zoebarry]

What happened to the thread about ivermectin? I received a message. My post was approved and now the whole thread has disappeared?

 

So we can talk about vaccines but not about ivermectin?

there seems to be a lot of cherry picking of posts around here……

Edited March 17 by zoebarry

[trottigy]

13 hours ago, zoebarry said:

What happened to the thread about ivermectin? I received a message. My post was approved and now the whole thread has disappeared?

 

So we can talk about vaccines but not about ivermectin?

there seems to be a lot of cherry picking of posts around here……

 

I am sorry about that. That was my fault. I wasn't able to moderate that thread (and since I was the CRAZY!! person who reopened it -> it should be me to moderate it). This is our prep for Memorial - so, a big weekend for hall maintenance and clean-up. I am on the Operating Committee for our hall - so, busy times.)

 

I had a little time this morning to go back and re-open it. note however: it IS in the "alt" news thread (specifically so it wont show on public searches and that allows us to be frank without worrying that some will think there is disagreement among God's people. AND while we all have our own opinions we all love it each other and would willingly live or die for anyone of us!!). That also means - I will have to "approve" all the posts (and there haven't been any that I have not approved) before it is seen by anyone else. OK- off to the special talk. I hope you all enjoy (or have enjoyed) yours.

 

Good health to you all 

 

 

Edited March 17 by trottigy

[Allabord4Jah]

Let's see here. Widespread diseases popping up, more rampant then 50 yrs in USA?  Well let's remember, those individuals coming across the border in the Southern US, are poor people, who have little education, and their government never pushed preventive shots for measles, chicken pox, etc.  They are in every city and town in the US.  No Covid vaccines, no chicken pox, no polio, no measles vaccine.  Majority of individuals mistrust the doctor's, they are afraid they will be deported, or their kids taken away.  Some could careless about their own health. Fear and ignorance, and those with "Who cares" attitude.  

 

Not only the citizens (people who were born and raised in the US), some due to their beliefs won't allow vaccinations for their kids.  Others are selfish, ignorant, and or they made not have the time to get off work to take their infant or older kids to doctor to get shots.  Some schools its mandatory to have vaccinations or else your child does not go to school.  Other schools don't care. 

 

I know and I have records, that I got shots, not just as a child but as an adult.  One day who knows, because the scene of this sick world can change over night.  I know there is a rise again of measles in USA.  Its contain for but we just never know when the next ones explode will be.  

 

To this day,  if I visit someone of our friends in hospital or a nursing home, or urgent care with si k friend, I wear a face mask and I bring hand sanitizer.  Mask not just for Covid, but the rise. In diseases that were once wiped out but now surfacing in cities n towns in USA.  

[Witness1970]

I will not debate the good or bad about vaccines.  Vaccines work for some people.  Other people have compromised immune systems and, for them, vaccines are a problem.  Each person has to decide for themselves about the vaccines.  The Governing Body will not decide for anyone else.  The Governing Body does not support one health system over another.  If you want to use the standard medical system, that is fine.  If you choose a holistic approach instead of traditional medicine that is your choice.

 

Anti-vaxxers point to a reporting system such as VAERS and claim that that is evidence that vaccines are bad.  VAERS is simply a reporting system and no research has been done to show how many of these adverse events were actually caused by the vaccine.  On VAERS if someone takes a vaccine and has an adverse reaction later, it is reported even if the adverse event had nothing to do with being vaccinated.

 

I joke that there were 2 brothers who took the vaccine and both died a week later.  The car they were riding in was also totaled.

Edited April 11 by Witness1970
added last paragraph.

[Mike047]

Good point, Randall. VAERS is a passive reporting system so should really be viewed as such. It reminds us of the problems of assuming data to be factual when it is untested.