JW Parents take their sick boy from hospital

[Old]

It looks like the father is taking to heart 1Timothy 5:8 and is going the extra mile in "providing for his own."

I see nothing unreasonable in the King's actions. My heart and prayers go out to them.

[Stavro]

Blood and being Witnesses has nothing to do with it.

 

Perhaps, but in a world that will cite "Jehovah's witnesses beliefs" even if the actual story is someone about someone who once attended a Kingdom hall, it's probably best to at least consult with the elders before causing Jehovah's name to be dragged through the international media like this.

[futurepromise]

http://youtu.be/14ETQn9ZPwk

 

This video Gives you the complete explanation. The father has done what I would also do. He desires another treatment for his son.

[shali]

http://youtu.be/14ETQn9ZPwk

 

This video Gives you the complete explanation. The father has done what I would also do. He desires another treatment for his son.

That was posted on the last page of this thread (page 2), I listened to it in entirity and I agree with you. Just wish they had clued their local elders in on what they were doing, but they probably acted immediately after the doctor told them they would use "emergency" procedures if they didn't agree with the treatment this doctor recommended. They would of had to leave their son die without anyone around him who truly loved him and that thought would of been unbearable for me personnally.

[rocket]

Missing British patient, 5, found in Spain, police say

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/30/world/europe/uk-boy-search/index.html#cnn-disqus-area

[futurepromise]

Mr King said he spoke to specialists following Ashya’s surgery and requested proton beam treatment, which was not available on the NHS.He said: “The surgeon did a wonderful job on his head that took out the brain tumour, completely they reckon.“But straight away afterwards he went into what’s called posterior fossa syndrome, which means very limited moving or talking or doing anything.”

He said proton beam was “so much better for children with brain cancer”.Mr King added: “It zones in on the area, whereby normal radiation passes right through his head and comes out the other side and destroys everything in his head.“We pleaded with them for proton beam treatment. They looked at me straight in the face and said with his cancer it would have no benefit.“I went straight back to my room and looked it up and the American sites and French sites and Switzerland sites where they have proton beam said the opposite.”Mr King said he would sell their flat to fund proton beam treatment.Officers had earlier said they thought the family had “taken steps” to be able to feed him.

The parents were permitted to take him out of the hospital but to bring him back after a short visit. They decided to leave before the hospital would get a court order, after learning that they would oppose the chemo etc treatment they would force on their son. They didn't break any law by taking their son.  The hospital is to blame for causing this stir.

I understand that no blood issue is involved in their decission, but as parents Jehovah holds them responsible to determine the best health care of their son. What they are doing deserves all of our Brotherhood to give complete support and comfort to them.

[futurepromise]

Perhaps, but in a world that will cite "Jehovah's witnesses beliefs" even if the actual story is someone about someone who once attended a Kingdom hall, it's probably best to at least consult with the elders before causing Jehovah's name to be dragged through the international media like this.

 

There was no time, to allow discussion with Elders. The procedure you state is for blood issues, not for your right to decide medical treatment for a terminal illness. The hospital didn't allow the parents to decide what treatment they would choose.  The course of treatment was going to be forced upon them. Realizing  if they would oppose would result in a court order and then they would be breaking the law.  They had to act while they had hospital permission to leave with their son.

 

The branch did make the comment that this was not a religious issue but a personal one.

[Fiona]

It's as I said right at the start, DRs think they are gods. How dare you question them. Idiots.

Makes me soooo mad my blood pressure is through the roof, I'm so upset for them.

So upset... I can only pray.. Feels like not enough.

Horrible. I HaTE this system. I HATE satan. GRRRRR

[shali]

There was no time, to allow discussion with Elders. The procedure you state is for blood issues, not for your right to decide medical treatment for a terminal illness. The hospital didn't allow the parents to decide what treatment they would choose.  The course of treatment was going to be forced upon them. Realizing  if they would oppose would result in a court order and then they would be breaking the law.  They had to act while they had hospital permission to leave with their son.

 

The branch did make the comment that this was not a religious issue but a personal one.

Talk about a rock and a hard place!!!! This is it!

[ava]

This is clearly about parents at the end of their tether with the health system and wanting the best care available. Blood and being Witnesses has nothing to do with it. Perhaps there are different ways of getting what they want. Perhaps others would do things differently. But until you are faced with the same circumstances you have no idea how you might react.

 

Agreed.

 

Both of my children were born with low blood platelet counts due to an issue in their bone marrow.  I can not begin to tell you what it is like dealing with the hospital, the law when the hospital says "the children must have a blood transfusion or they will die".  When you are an adult, they respect your wishes to refuse blood, but the moment it's about a minor child, you are threatened with all kinds of things. I was told that my husband and I would lose temporary custody of our child and charged with neglect if we didn't allow the blood transfusion.  Out of desperation, I seriously considered taking my child out of the hospital and far away.  I know that is wrong, but when you have not slept in days, and your child is laying in an incubator ready to die, and you are being threatened with legal charges and loss of your child, well all I can say is your mind doesn't think straight.

 

Fortunately, my children never got the blood, and due to the wonderful efforts of the Hospital Liaison Committee, we got new doctors at new hospitals who treated my children without the blood.

 

I know this case is not about blood, but we shouldn't condemn the parents. We don't have all the facts, simple as that.

[shali]

I haven't seen a hint of the Hospital Liasion Committee in any of this story. Were they there? If they were, things might of gone differently, who knows.

[futurepromise]

I haven't seen a hint of the Hospital Liasion Committee in any of this story. Were they there? If they were, things might of gone differently, who knows.

 

I haven't seen a hint of the Hospital Liasion Committee in any of this story. Were they there? If they were, things might of gone differently, who knows.

 

This could not involve the Hospital Liasion Committee, they only deal with blood issues, not the right to choose your medical care.

[futurepromise]

This is what the hospital said:

 

A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after the family left, said on Friday: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.

"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."

Mr Shead said police were told by the hospital the child was missing at 20:35 BST on Thursday - more than six hours after he had been taken by his parents.

 

Parents have the right to remove their children from hospital unless they are prevented from doing so by a court order - No court order was made when they did not return their son. The hospital is to blame for making it go to the news media.

 

If doctors are concerned that parents intend to remove a child, deny it the medical treatment it needs, and expose it to the risk of serious harm, they can seek a court order.

This will normally involve CAFCASS (the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service), the non-departmental public body which provides guardians to represent the best interests of children in family court proceedings.

Once an order is in place, any parent who removes their child in breach of the order is committing a contempt of court for which they could be imprisoned.

 

Hampshire Police confirmed the family are Jehovah's Witnesses, but there is no suggestion this is why he was taken.

Officers were keeping an "open mind" on the motives, Mr Shead said.

The Office of Public Information for Jehovah's Witnesses said in a statement: "There is absolutely no indication, as far as we are aware, that their decision is in any way motivated by any religious convictions."

[Stavro]

There was no time, to allow discussion with Elders.

 

There was several days between removing him from the hospital and their arrest, and there was a direct plea from the French branch office to get in contact with the congregation.

 

Instead, their first contact with anyone wasn't with their elders, or the branch, or anyone associated with the congregation, it was via Youtube video released to the media, which has subsequently been re-edited to bring even more reproach on Jehovah's name.

 

As I said earlier, I will not discuss matters that are not verified, and since I do not know his condition or the viability of any particular treatment, I will not comment on that aspect of this. However, given that they directly opposed the directions of the branch, I cannot condone their actions, nor do I believe it is wise to praise anyone for intentionally and publicly opposing the clear and very public directions of the organization.

 

I apologize I hurt anyone's feelings by saying this, but the fact of the matter is that we have to remain CLOSE to the congregation, which would most certainly NOT mean going into hiding from the elders and causing multiple branch offices to join in the search.

 

(Proverbs 11:14) When there is no skillful direction, the people fall, But there is success through many advisers.

 

See also: w13 9/15 p. 9; w13 11/15 pp. 23-25

[Fiona]

Boy brother Stavro I pray your kids never get sick, they won't have anyone to fight for them

[shali]

How do you know Stavro that they didn't contact anyone in your rosters of people before they made this decision?  This reminds me of what we may go through during the GT - we will be told to do things that no one may understand and we won't be able to confirm it before we have to act.  When the elders tell us to do something - will we have to contact the FDS to make sure they are telling us the truth? Or will we act out of trust?

[seagull]

Perhaps, but in a world that will cite "Jehovah's witnesses beliefs" even if the actual story is someone about someone who once attended a Kingdom hall, it's probably best to at least consult with the elders before causing Jehovah's name to be dragged through the international media like this.

In this particular case they had no idea about the storm this would cause. They had every right to remove the child as he was not a ward of court.

In general terms I don't think there is any reason to consult the elders about medical treatment. Other than if you were to ask them about having one of the main components of blood, no elder with any experience would give you a yes or no answer about any medical treatment. What would the elders have actually done? I know from experience that even the HLC would likely be very cautious about stepping outside of the scope of bloodless surgery.

[Old]

Did I miss out on something?

I don't know if he had a confidential discussion with "the elders" or one elder, or none, that is what confidential means.

I won't second guess what might have said in private conversation.

I might have counseled them to do 'as you deem appropriate, but try to keep Jehovah's name out of it.' And then again I might not have.

We don't know what the elders know.

We don't know a lot and most of the options were formed before we heard from the father, since then I see a little back tracking, he should have talked to the elders, he should have talked the Hospital Liaison Committee (? I am sure they have, in dealing with blood issues, this is not blood issue.) not within their purview.

[shali]

This could not involve the Hospital Liasion Committee, they only deal with blood issues, not the right to choose your medical care.

Wow, where I live, no matter what you go into  the hospital for, the HLC is there! Doesn't have to be a matter of blood, they are they to help, support and comfort.  Sorry that in our part of the states they are only there when blood is involved. My mother died in a hospital when blood was not involved and yet the HLC was there to help and answer any questions we had or the doctors had. I was hoping this would be the same for the King family.

Edited August 31, 2014 by shali

[Stavro]

Boy brother Stavro I pray your kids never get sick, they won't have anyone to fight for them

 

Is it really necessary to move into personal attacks?

 

The branch, under the direction of the Faithful and Discreet slave, asked the family to come forward. The family refused that direction, and intentionally contributed to international media circus that caused more reproach on Jehovah's name than any case in recent history.

 

If you feel that it's praiseworthy to ignore Jehovah's clear direction through his appointed channel of communication, I guess we'll agree to disagree and let Jehovah sort it out.

 

 

 

When the elders tell us to do something - will we have to contact the FDS to make sure they are telling us the truth? Or will we act out of trust?

 

Exactly, thank you. When the branch tells us to do something, we have to be ready to follow that direction quickly and unquestioningly. By all reports, this family refused.

 

Also, those in the congregation went directly to the media to say that they had no idea where the family was. I find it highly unlikely that the elders would discuss the matter with the family, then go to the media and lie that they don't know where they are or what motive they had.

[Musky]

I must have missed a post, where was it said the "branch asked them to come forward"?

[Stavro]

http://news.sky.com/story/1326571/missing-ashya-fears-feeding-tube-has-run-out

Guy Canonici, the president of the Jehovah's Witnesses in France, has told Sky News he has put over 1,000 Kingdom Halls (places of worship) on alert for the missing boy.

He said so far no one had come forward with any information.

[Musky]

I did miss that, thanks

[Old]

Brother jez you deserve 5 I likes, but I can only do it once.

 

 

Also, those in the congregation went directly to the media to say that they had no idea where the family was. I find it highly unlikely that the elders would discuss the matter with the family, then go to the media and lie that they don't know where they are or what motive they had.

"The Congregation went directly to the media" ?  Bad.

Our Congregation was involved in one of the biggest news scandals I have ever known. We were counseled not to go to the media!!!

I can't believe that the UK Branch would give contrary advice. 

[seagull]

There was several days between removing him from the hospital and their arrest, and there was a direct plea from the French branch office to get in contact with the congregation.

 

Instead, their first contact with anyone wasn't with their elders, or the branch, or anyone associated with the congregation, it was via Youtube video released to the media, which has subsequently been re-edited to bring even more reproach on Jehovah's name.

 

As I said earlier, I will not discuss matters that are not verified, and since I do not know his condition or the viability of any particular treatment, I will not comment on that aspect of this. However, given that they directly opposed the directions of the branch, I cannot condone their actions, nor do I believe it is wise to praise anyone for intentionally and publicly opposing the clear and very public directions of the organization.

 

I apologize I hurt anyone's feelings by saying this, but the fact of the matter is that we have to remain CLOSE to the congregation, which would most certainly NOT mean going into hiding from the elders and causing multiple branch offices to join in the search.

 

(Proverbs 11:14) When there is no skillful direction, the people fall, But there is success through many advisers.

 

See also: w13 9/15 p. 9; w13 11/15 pp. 23-25

The family were in Spain, having travelled from Britain. Of course they travelled through France but they might not even have known of the advice of the French branch. Regardless, they are under no obligation to get in contact with the elders or any other witnesses in the UK, France or Spain. Getting in touch would make no difference to their situation. They simply wanted space to have time to seek the treatment they wanted for their child.

Of course there could be other ways of handling the situation but I fail to see what real difference going to the elders or branch anywhere would really make. What do you think would have happened if they had turned up on the doorstep of Bethel in Spain or France? Do you think the brothers would welcome them in with open arms especially given the growing media interest?

Given the circumstances of this case, I think the lack of direct contact with branches or congregations has actually has defused attention away from Jehovah's Witnesses.