Genderless baby

[carlos]

9 hours ago, Thesauron said:

I can understand it. I know a couple who refuses to tell people the gender of their new baby. The name don't give it away either. They want to avoid stereotypical gender focus from day one, so no "pink for girls and blue for boys". They don't say him, her, or it, just the name, or 'the baby'. Mind you, they are not LGBTQ people. The do not consider it an 'experiment' any more than any other parents experiment with brining up healthy kids. It will come a day when the gender will become obvious, but till then, it's just a lovely little kid.

Johan, we discussed something before about gender ambiguity in children and couldn't agree on it. I feel that scripturally anything that promotes sexual ambiguity is wrong. Jehovah created us in such a way that we can clearly and instantly tell a man from a woman. And he made clear in Moses' Law that he detests sexual ambiguity. But I wouldn't force that view on you or those parents.

 

9 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Would it be at puberty that the true gender manifests?

I have no idea. But as far back as I remember I have always known I was a boy. I guess this knowledge is inherent, as Luezette says. But obviously it's not for everybody.

 

9 hours ago, Thesauron said:

A blood test would reveal the biological gender most of the time. But, from what I understand, doctors hesitate to do this on very small babies.

I'm not sure if that would be the solution in this case. Depending on the severity of the disorder, some intersexual individuals may have male genetic make up (XY chromosome included) and yet their male organs be internal while the external ones are female, and have all the features of a woman (or the other way around). I really don't know what I would do in that situation. Is the true gender the genetic one, the one you have "plumbing" for, the one you feel you belong to? I'm glad that I don't have to decide, it's such a complex situation.

 

[Thesauron]

I'm not sure if that would be the solution in this case. Depending on the severity of the disorder, some intersexual individuals may have male genetic make up (XY chromosome included) and yet their male organs be internal while the external ones are female, and have all the features of a woman (or the other way around). I really don't know what I would do in that situation. Is the true gender the genetic one, the one you have "plumbing" for, the one you feel you belong to? I'm glad that I don't have to decide, it's such a complex situation.
 

The physical gender is easier to correct at the moment, I guess. The physical/biological gender might be one thing and your mental/psychological gender another. Quite confusing for the kids affected, and leads to many suicides, unfortunately.


Johan

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

 

 

I have no idea. But as far back as I remember I have always known I was a boy. I guess this knowledge is inherent, as Luezette says. But obviously it's not for everybody.

 

 

Was it inherent or continually reinforced from birth by outside sources like parents, friends, way you were dressed, etc? 

[carlos]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

Was it inherent or continually reinforced from birth by outside sources like parents, friends, way you were dressed, etc? 

Good question. It was certainly reinforced all the time by external influences. So there's no way to tell if that perception was there and was reinforced or rather it was actually instilled.

 

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

The physical gender is easier to correct at the moment, I guess. The physical/biological gender might be one thing and your mental/psychological gender another. Quite confusing for the kids affected, and leads to many suicides, unfortunately.

Yes, gender issues must be among the most puzzling and stressing situations you can be in. I guess that's one of those areas where Jesus will have to show an additional measure of compassion during the jugdment.

[Luezette]

Johan, you made a good point about a blood test would reveal whether the child is male or female but doctors hesitate to do that. 

My question is, but why would they hesitate? Their hesitation makes no sense to me. It's a simple prick. Unless, drum roll, they don't want to invest the money and time? But still, that doesn't make sense either. Yet they're willing, assuming the money situation is the point, to cut off the wrong organ and make the child grow up into a miserable man or woman. Yes, I do believe, because of this situation of doing the wrong cutting, that a few people are "made that way" as they say. (Notice I said "a few people" as in less than half. So no, I'm not advocating the majority who take that stand). 

Jehovah made us "wonderfully" as the psalmist said. Everything, inside and outside, is in its proper place with its proper function(s). It's not the intersex child's fault if their father (Adam) purposely made their life miserable. Only Jehovah can set things right. And he will, in due time, make their bodies whole as he intended. 

In the meantime, some have parents who again proves the wisdom that indeed man was not intended to rule themselves. Real sad. 

[Thesauron]

Johan, you made a good point about a blood test would reveal whether the child is male or female but doctors hesitate to do that. 
My question is, but why would they hesitate? Their hesitation makes no sense to me. It's a simple prick. Unless, drum roll, they don't want to invest the money and time? But still, that doesn't make sense either. Yet they're willing, assuming the money situation is the point, to cut off the wrong organ and make the child grow up into a miserable man or woman. Yes, I do believe, because of this situation of doing the wrong cutting, that a few people are "made that way" as they say. (Notice I said "a few people" as in less than half. So no, I'm not advocating the majority who take that stand). 
Jehovah made us "wonderfully" as the psalmist said. Everything, inside and outside, is in its proper place with its proper function(s). It's not the intersex child's fault if their father (Adam) purposely made their life miserable. Only Jehovah can set things right. And he will, in due time, make their bodies whole as he intended. 
In the meantime, some have parents who again proves the wisdom that indeed man was not intended to rule themselves. Real sad. 

It's not a simple prick. You draw blood from babies, which should be avoided if possible, from what I've understood.


Johan

[dove]

On the other hand, they think nothing of injecting foreign substances into them right after birth, before their immune systems have had time to develop..

[Luezette]

Oh? But what do you understand about it Johan? I don't understand myself really. I mean, they use a thin needle called the "butterfly" needle. They even use it in me because I'm such a baby with needles, and my veins are ridiculously thin, and they move. 

And Dove, you're right. They do inject foreign substances in babies. 

But what we gonna do eh? The new world is just around the corner practically. 

[Thesauron]

Oh? But what do you understand about it Johan? I don't understand myself really. I mean, they use a thin needle called the "butterfly" needle. They even use it in me because I'm such a baby with needles, and my veins are ridiculously thin, and they move. 
And Dove, you're right. They do inject foreign substances in babies. 
But what we gonna do eh? The new world is just around the corner practically. 

There are needed for the purpose, but drawing blood from babies is still never good, according to some doctors. Not because of the needle, but because even a small amount for an adult is great for newborn babies. Some feel prick tests are alright.


Johan

[Luezette]

Ohhhh! I evidently gave you the wrong impression concerning the blood test method. I'm sorry.

When I mentioned a "prick" I wasn't referring to a finger prick, as in testing blood sugar for instance. I was referring to an actual vein blood test, thus the butterfly needle. 

As far as it not being good for babies, maybe you have a point. But it's a known fact that babies do get blood tests. As a matter of fact, because some babies, because of whatever reason, get more serious tests as, for example, in intensive care (neonatal). Even while in utero (during pregnancy) doctors perform surgery on them. 

You may, however, take exception with blood tests on a baby for something that's not life threatening what doctors call "elective" which is quite understandable (and in this case for intersex babies since that's what this whole discussion is about).

Yet, even with babies having surgery in utero the bottom line is such procedures are still up to the parents, how much so a simple blood test (such as consent forms). 

I still believe however, as you previously mentioned, a blood test would be great to determine the sex of the baby, before the cutting. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know there was such a blood test before it was mentioned. But why not? Everything we basically need in our bodies for survival is in the blood. Thus no wonder Jehovah's stance that the life of the person is in the blood. 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Luezette

[Thesauron]

Ohhhh! I evidently gave you the wrong impression concerning the blood test method. I'm sorry.
When I mentioned a "prick" I wasn't referring to a finger prick, as in testing blood sugar for instance. I was referring to an actual vein blood test, thus the butterfly needle. 
As far as it not being good for babies, maybe you have a point. But it's a known fact that babies do get blood tests. As a matter of fact, because some babies, because of whatever reason, get more serious tests as, for example, in intensive care (neonatal). Even while in utero (during pregnancy) doctors perform surgery on them. 
You may, however, take exception with blood tests on a baby for something that's not life threatening what doctors call "elective" which is quite understandable (and in this case for intersex babies since that's what this whole discussion is about).
Yet, even with babies having surgery in utero the bottom line is such procedures are still up to the parents, how much so a simple blood test (such as consent forms). 
I still believe however, as you previously mentioned, a blood test would be great to determine the sex of the baby, before the cutting. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know there was such a blood test before it was mentioned. But why not? Everything we basically need in our bodies for survival is in the blood. Thus no wonder Jehovah's stance that the life of the person is in the blood. 
 

You're right. Intersex babies do not have a life threatening situation. That's why some doctors feel it is unnecessary to draw blood for the purpose. There are far more serious issues that might require it.


Johan

[Shawnster]

Can a DNA test be done? Would a less invasive cheek swab work just as well?   Blood tests are quicker than the DNA tests but surely it isn't more thorough. 

[Ferb]

DNA could certainly be tested in plenty of other ways, and I think a cheek swab is more common.  I can't really think what use a blood test would be in this instance, except perhaps to check for hormones, but I'm not sure how much hormonal difference is expected between babies anyway.

 

On 06/07/2017 at 0:16 PM, Shawnster said:

Was it inherent or continually reinforced from birth by outside sources like parents, friends, way you were dressed, etc? 

 

Like almost everything in psychology, it's partly both, but mostly the latter.  Like language - it's partly inherent, in that we humans have an innate ability for it, but obviously largely comes from hearing others around us speak the language.  Or spirituality - partly inherent, we all have a natural spiritual need, but if we are not taught about Jehovah, we end up not having an accurate knowledge.  Yes, there are probably some inherent mental differences between genders - but they are probably mostly caused by outside sources, and just as with the language and spirituality, this is a good thing, all part of Jehovah's plan for what we are supposed to learn, and which it would be negligent to deprive a child of.

 

On 06/07/2017 at 11:40 AM, Thesauron said:

The physical gender is easier to correct at the moment, I guess. The physical/biological gender might be one thing and your mental/psychological gender another. Quite confusing for the kids affected, and leads to many suicides, unfortunately.

 

I don't think it does 'lead to' any suicides, I think the suicides are the result of whatever mental problems cause a person to be so detached from reality that they deny who they are.  What's unfortunate is that those problems go untreated for fear of being politcally incorrect.

[ChocoBro]

On 4.7.2017 at 4:32 PM, Ferb said:

 A man who believed he was a giraffe [...] would quite rightly be treated for his mental disorder. 

 

Not so sure about that anymore, thinking you're a cat is already acceptable.

 

 

Or how about a grown mid-50ies man who thinks he's a little schoolgirl?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by ChocoBro

[Luezette]

Oh goodness! "The whole world is going to pot" as my generation used to say. 

This whole thing is crazy. 

Blood tests, cheek swabs, etc...What is needed is Jehovah's kingdom that's all. 

I'm aware that right now this is a serious and very sad, heartrending situation, especially for those intimately involved. But relief is real soon. 

Then and only then will girl babies born as girl babies with their girl organs be real girl babies, and the same for boy babies. There will be no intersex babies. 

So we can talk all we want, myself included, about this sad situation and try to figure it out, but the bottom line is the ultimate solution is Jehovah's kingdom. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Luezette

[Thesauron]

DNA could certainly be tested in plenty of other ways, and I think a cheek swab is more common.  I can't really think what use a blood test would be in this instance, except perhaps to check for hormones, but I'm not sure how much hormonal difference is expected between babies anyway.
 
 
I don't think it does 'lead to' any suicides, I think the suicides are the result of whatever mental problems cause a person to be so detached from reality that they deny who they are.  What's unfortunate is that those problems go untreated for fear of being politcally incorrect.

What leads to suicide is the wish to remain within the norm yet knowing it's impossible, knowing the world frowns upon you and consider you a freak. Basically, they can't be who they are, which creates a bad spiral of events quite often leading to the idea that suicide is the easiest way out.


Johan