Being polite when speaking in English?

[Hotteok]

Quote

Some people only appear to be humble. They may have an unassuming personality. Or they may show deference  or politeness because of their culture and upbringing. But deep down, they may actually be very prideful. Sooner or later, they will reveal what they truly are at heart.—

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-september-2019/jehovah-values-his-humble-servants/

 

In Korean and Japanese, they speak in a different version(?) when they address people who are older and who they think need more respect to be shown for them.. (is this grammar correct)

But a recent Watchtower article was interesting..as seen above.

 

People who speak the more respectful version of Korean and Japanese may not always be really respectful towards anyone. 

As Korean, this I can confirm more than anybody. But as the language itself requires me to show more respect through grammar and intonation and such, I do get the impression that this version of Korean can be used positively for those who want to show respect for others. Personally, I’m quite tired of speaking in that version, not tired of showing respect but of having to switch between those two. I prefer Chinese for that reason when speaking. I think it felt even freer to speak in that regard, even compared to English.

 

But not saying any language without this version of speaking is by any means lacking respect for other people.

For example, Hebrew, the one language Jehovah first created doesn’t have this (maybe except for things like Lord or Elohim) and is still doing fine.  

 

When I was in an English-speaking country, I felt that people used different words like could you, would you, do you mind etc to show respect. 

But it was because they wanted to show respect not because of age difference or some social status gap etc. 

From my point of view, it was like breaking these social walls that I originally had or felt in Korea. In some way, it felt freer. Other times, it felt rather individualistic and a bit rude.

At least, the language itself didn’t differentiate people based on age.. That alone was a huge relief. You just need to show respect by being humble. 

 

 

So my question is in English or in your mother tongue,

how much of a fuss(?) or cultural importance is put on showing respect through different, changed grammatical patterns?

Do people care a lot about being polite in speaking? 

Do you have to think about being polite when speaking in your language? Or is it okay as long as you are not being disrepectful?

If you do have to to a certain degree, how do you do it? A changed intonation? 

 

Thanks for reading!  

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by VisualizeUrParadise

[Alexa]

We know more than possible anyone else certain ones we talk to. The way we speak sometimes from how we normally talk with them. If they share their problems, we will speak in a more respectful tone. If you and the other person always just joking around, even you didnt notice you became more straightforward and it can severe your friendship. 

[M.J.]

Spanish also has a formal and informal way to speak certain words. Formal used for older ones,  strangers,  etc.

 

I learned that a Bethel in a Latin American country, banned the use of formal words within Bethel, apparently, to discourage the appearance of rank. I thought this was impractical outside of Bethel, since a typical person would simply see it as rude, not understanding all the reasons behind it. Though formal language can be used to convey rank or superiority, sometimes it is simply respectful and good manners. However, about 15 years later, times have changed, and now many people in that country are dropping the formal language.  I can tell you that it was a bit shocking for me to hear my family refer to my elderly mother in an informal way. But times are changing. And respect is a lot more than just using certain words. 

[EccentricM]

12 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

how much of a fuss(?) or cultural importance is put on showing respect through different, changed grammatical patterns?

Do people care a lot about being polite in speaking? 

Do you have to think about being polite when speaking in your language? Or is it okay as long as you are not being disrepectful?

If you do have to to a certain degree, how do you do it? A changed intonation? 

I don't even have to think about any of that. Respect is achieved just by expressing care or concern for someone. If someone is older, there is no "unique" language or wording for that, I speak to them how I speak to anyone else, but I show respect or consideration through action, whether that be just being careful to listen to them, adressing their needs and so on, or just showing affection.

Edited February 6, 2021 by EccentricM

[carlos]

In Spanish, as MJ explained above, we have courtesy pronouns and verb forms when we address the elderly, strangers and people in a higher position. I don't find it cumbersome, it just comes naturally when you speak with an elderly person. Although it's true with certain people you are not sure which form to use, for example an stranger who is more or less your age.

 

Yet in Spain we never use those courtesy forms when we are speaking to a brother or a sister in the faith, no matter their age or their responsibilities in the congregation. I don't know the reason for this, and it has never been said at any conventions or printed on any publications that I can remember. Everybody in the congregation simply assumes we are all brothers so we don't need to show special respect in our words.

 

The usage of that courtesy style is different in other Spanish-speaking countries, so I don't know how the friends address each other there.

[Katty]

I find it interesting how language is a reflection of culture. I learned Vietnamese for a little while, and I believe it's a similar principle of different grammar depending on the age and rank of the person you're speaking to in relation to yourself. I believe when you're introducing yourself, to most adults your age and older, you refer to yourself as a child, don't you?
English is a language that developed in the West which has a more individualistic culture. Now, I know French has vous versus tous when it comes to you in formal/informal language, and in Latin Spanish, it's usted vs tu. But in English, it's simply "you". 

 

The only phrase that I would correlate to formality in English is to address someone as "Sir" or "Ma'am", to address your elders by their last name, if you're a youth or you don't know them very well. I find just English speaking cultures tend to be relatively informal compared to much of the world and adults generally view each other more or less as equals despite age and gender differences or marital status.

[Thesauron]

In Spanish, as MJ explained above, we have courtesy pronouns and verb forms when we address the elderly, strangers and people in a higher position. I don't find it cumbersome, it just comes naturally when you speak with an elderly person. Although it's true with certain people you are not sure which form to use, for example an stranger who is more or less your age.
 
Yet in Spain we never use those courtesy forms when we are speaking to a brother or a sister in the faith, no matter their age or their responsibilities in the congregation. I don't know the reason for this, and it has never been said at any conventions or printed on any publications that I can remember. Everybody in the congregation simply assumes we are all brothers so we don't need to show special respect in our words.
 
The usage of that courtesy style is different in other Spanish-speaking countries, so I don't know how the friends address each other there.

Why not be courteous to everyone you meet? Why single out some groups?

[Qapla]

I had an experience years ago that has stuck with me:

 

In the Congregation I grew up in we had an "older" brother. I always called him "Brother S" (name shortened for convenience). I was 8 when I first met him and am not really sure how much "older" he actually was - but most likely was 30-40 or so years older than me. Suffice it to say he used to witness with a phonograph (he demoed it at some of our meetings) and he had used a "sound car" - had some interesting experiences he related. I had been in Service with him many times and had nice chats about his many experiences pioneering when he was young.

 

Some years later I was appointed to the body and we served together on this body. One day he came up to me and said, "It is about time you call me by my first name since we are serving as Elders together". That caught me by surprise. I had called him "Br. S" ever since I had known him. To now call him by his first name was ... strange different. It took me a while but I did manage it.

 

That helped me to later let some of the younger ones call me by my first name - but allow that they may not feel comfortable with it at first and continue calling me "Br. H"

 

It also impressed on me that others may think you are not being "polite" by calling someone older by their first name when, in fact, you are being polite because you are doing as they asked.

[EccentricM]

@Qapla I've never heard of it being impolite of calling someone by their first name here, I've only ever called people by their first. Perhaps it's a generational thing, or a cultural thing (or both).

 

The only time I have is when it comes to the elderly as a "child" and we're told "call them aunty x, not linda!". But that was only when I was about 5-7 years old (and I was rarely told such, and for some reason it only seemed to apply to elderly women). But such didn't apply when I got older, it's usually told to children, in the same way they are told to adress teachers at school as "mr or mrs x".

Edited February 11, 2021 by EccentricM

[Qapla]

@EccentricM

 

So, in your culture, if a 14 year old were introduced to an 80 year old Brother named "Joe Smith" it would be considered normal for the 14 year old to call him "Joe" instead of "Br. Smith"?

 

I was brought up to call older ones "Brother/Sister" [last name] - and that still seems to be the case where I live.

 

[Hotteok]

At this point, Hebrew culture starts to appear weird. Everyone called Jesus Jesus. Or was he called rabbi?

[carlos]

6 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Why not be courteous to everyone you meet? Why single out some groups?

Maybe "courtesy pronouns" is not the best term because, as you say, we should be courteous to everyone. Being courteous would mean to use words such as "please" and "thank you". Those special forms I mentioned are not really about courtesy but about respect. As far as I know they exist in Swedish too ("du" vs "Ni"), although they are losing usage nowadays. You can be courteous to a child but you don't address him the same as an elderly person. If you used those special forms with everybody, then they wouldn't be special anymore.

 

In fact that's what happened to English. Old English used to have a singular pronoun thou, thee and a plural pronoun ye, you. The later was used to show respect, exactly the same as "usted" in Spanish or "Ni" in Swedish. But for some reason the singular form was gradually abandoned in favor of the respectful form you to address everybody. Of course, once you use it for everybody it no longer shows special respect. So English speakers had to find other ways to show respect such as the use of last names.

[Thesauron]

Maybe "courtesy pronouns" is not the best term because, as you say, we should be courteous to everyone. Being courteous would mean to use words such as "please" and "thank you". Those special forms I mentioned are not really about courtesy but about respect. As far as I know they exist in Swedish too ("du" vs "Ni"), although they are losing usage nowadays. You can be courteous to a child but you don't address him the same as an elderly person. If you used those special forms with everybody, then they wouldn't be special anymore.
 
In fact that's what happened to English. Old English used to have a singular pronoun thou, thee and a plural pronoun ye, you. The later was used to show respect, exactly the same as "usted" in Spanish or "Ni" in Swedish. But for some reason the singular form was gradually abandoned in favor of the respectful form you to address everybody. Of course, once you use it for everybody it no longer shows special respect. So English speakers had to find other ways to show respect such as the use of last names.

”Ni” in Swedish as a courtesy expression is a misunderstanding. Some, especially uneducated younger people, use it thinking that older people expect it. But it was never used historically as a courtesy expression. Instead, you always used people’s titles. This was done away with in the mid twentieth century as it conveyed social differences and a class system. And the older people who once did away with the courtesy expression now have to stand such a language use once more. The brothers do not use it in the publications.

[Hotteok]

There were two ways to address a brother back in 70,80’s in Korea.

 

Quote

The honorific suffix -님 (-nim) is affixed to many kinship terms to make them honorific. Thus, someone may address his own grandmother as 할머니 (halmeoni) but refer to someone else's grandmother as 할머님 (halmeonim).

So that some people used to call brothers they especially liked not just brother but brother-nim, showing more respect.

In the end, there came to be a group of brothers who were mainly called just brothers, which is definitely differentiating.

Although the reason they added ‘nim’ for some brothers had a good motive, as it caused division, with the help of the headquarter and the Korean branch, it was eventually done away with. 

 

[EccentricM]

12 hours ago, Qapla said:

"Joe Smith" it would be considered normal for the 14 year old to call him "Joe" instead of "Br. Smith"?

It wouldn't be looked down upon I don't think. I did at that age. I'd call Elders by their first names from a younger age.

Edited February 12, 2021 by EccentricM

[M.J.]

9 hours ago, EccentricM said:

It wouldn't be looked down upon I don't think. I did at that age. I'd call Elders by their first names from a younger age.

Was that just you doing that? Or all the children?

[EccentricM]

7 minutes ago, M.J. said:

Was that just you doing that? Or all the children?

I can't recall to be honest 😄 Maybe it was just me. I was never told off about such though, nor did anyone express any unhappiness with it.

Edited February 12, 2021 by EccentricM

[M.J.]

Maybe they were all humoring you lol

 

But I do see how times have changed. Children used to be taught respect by using Br. and Sister --- when addressing an adult.  Now that custom is fading... it is a bit strange.... and I'm still uneasy about it. Children especially need clearer boundaries when they are younger.  I think we may have moved from one extreme to another.