October Watchtower 2021

[Hope]

2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Did you sing the song that said that Noah had never seen rain before? 

Haha- no.. the song was #139.  But I kept thinking about our discussions on the topic here, the entire time.  That outline is pretty old.. 😬

[James the Less]

2 hours ago, Hope said:

That outline is pretty old

Well… yes and no. That talk has been given since at least the 1960s but the outline has been revised several times since then. The most recent revision to the outline was in September 2015, and there is not a single reference in the outline or the related reference material to the water canopy. So it seems this is more a case of a brother who has given this talk for many years and has failed to update his talk when the new outline came out. That was six years ago. Makes you wonder how he’s gone this long without someone pulling him up about it. Or how he even missed it in the first place. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

[Tortuga]

27 minutes ago, jscotchie said:

Well… yes and no. That talk has been given since at least the 1960s but the outline has been revised several times since then. The most recent revision to the outline was in September 2015, and there is not a single reference in the outline or the related reference material to the water canopy. So it seems this is more a case of a brother who has given this talk for many years and has failed to update his talk when the new outline came out. That was six years ago. Makes you wonder how he’s gone this long without someone pulling him up about it. Or how he even missed it in the first place. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

I noticed the oldest reference in the outline, besides the Bible, is a WT02.

[Hope]

36 minutes ago, jscotchie said:

Well… yes and no. That talk has been given since at least the 1960s but the outline has been revised several times since then. The most recent revision to the outline was in September 2015, and there is not a single reference in the outline or the related reference material to the water canopy. So it seems this is more a case of a brother who has given this talk for many years and has failed to update his talk when the new outline came out. That was six years ago. Makes you wonder how he’s gone this long without someone pulling him up about it. Or how he even missed it in the first place. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

You'd have to know this brother to know how "unhip" to the times he is! 😄  He runs a couple of our meetings for service and is a bit cringey at times- but we appreciate he's there. If something needs correcting I'm sure someone will do it. Someday... 😉

 

It was just interesting to me 

[Tortuga]

58 minutes ago, jscotchie said:

So it seems this is more a case of a brother who has given this talk for many years and has failed to update his talk when the new outline came out.

I tried to follow along in the outline during a recent public talk but the speaker wasn't following the outline at all and I finally gave up trying to follow along.  He gave a talk that I use to give in the 90s but it has been revised since then. I recognized the material that he used was from the old outline. 

[Eejay]

On 7/22/2021 at 1:21 PM, jayrtom said:

Let's forget once and for all about the flood waters being the rupture and fallen down of that canopy

Well, the specific notion of a "canopy" appears to have been confined to the realm of speculation in The Floodwaters section under Deluge in Vol 1 of our Insight On the Scriptures.

However, the Scriptural references of Gen.6:17; Gen.7:11; Gen.1:6-8 and 2Pet.3:5-6 are still sequenced there in relation to a vast amount of water being retained in the upper atmosphere by means unknown. And this same "reservoir" is cited as a source of the Deluge waters which constitute the first specific mention of rain in God's word. As for the appearance of the sky in pre-Flood times, there will be many eye-witness accounts in due time, including those of how the sky looked immediately prior to the Flood (which I believe is the time depicted on the cover of the Oct 2021 WT). 🙂

[jayrtom]

1 minute ago, Eejay said:

Well, the specific notion of a "canopy" appears to have been confined to the realm of speculation in The Floodwaters section under Deluge in Vol 1 of our Insight On the Scriptures.

However, the Scriptural references of Gen.6:17; Gen.7:11; Gen.1:6-8 and 2Pet.3:5-6 are still sequenced there in relation to a vast amount of water being retained in the upper atmosphere by means unknown. And this same "reservoir" is cited as a source of the Deluge waters which constitute the first specific mention of rain in God's word. As for the appearance of the sky in pre-Flood times, there will be many eye-witness accounts in due time, including those of how the sky looked immediately prior to the Flood (which I believe is the time depicted on the cover of the Oct 2021 WT). 🙂

Off course we don't have any eye witness at the moment

However my comment was related to the fact that, previously, there were no mention from the slave indicating that the idea of a canopy was absolutely retired. Many, myself included, still held the idea presented on the IT as a current interpretation. 

The depiction on this magazine cover represents, for me, a complete shift on this and I believe now that the slave as completly ruled out the canopy idea or the fact that the sky was somehow different before the flood than after it

 

 

[Paradise-Lover]

4 hours ago, Tortuga said:

5 hours ago, jscotchie said:

 

I tried to follow along in the outline during a recent public talk but the speaker wasn't following the outline at all and I finally gave up trying to follow along.

This is why I never want to keep an outline within reach while listening to a talk. I'd rather the auxiliary counselor deal with that headache. Unless I was asked by the speaker. 

[Eejay]

5 hours ago, jayrtom said:

the slave as completly ruled out the canopy idea or the fact that the sky was somehow different before the flood than after it

The canopy idea was confined to speculation in the Insight article from 1988. Everything pre-deluge apart from detail specifically revealed in Scripture is speculation.

[jwhess]

6 hours ago, Paradise-Lover said:

This is why I never want to keep an outline within reach while listening to a talk. I'd rather the auxiliary counselor deal with that headache. Unless I was asked by the speaker. 

Back in 2018, when we were still going out to congregations to give Public Talks, I used a newer outline from 3002 (not the old 1996 version).  When the meeting was over, the Chairman and the Aux Counselor asked what version I was using.  I said it was the 2002.  they said the outline had been updated a couple of months before (so it was 2018).  I suggested that when they contacted my congregation about the talk, that they mention the older outline situation.

 

 

When I returned home, I contacted the COBE and suggested that he and the Talk Coordinator reach out to ALL the elders & MS and let them know that they should check all of their outlines in view of the current updates.  He sent a memo to all of us and I had just the one to update, but it caused a slight embarrassment.  No spiritual harm done and that was good.

[Shawnster]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:29 PM, Hope said:

We had the old Noah talk today... a full ten minutes about the canopy 😃

We had this talk this summer. It is a shame that some brothers don't realize their talks are updated.  Understandable, but a shame. 

[shali]

I'm sorry but it bugs the crud out of me when Brothers don't update the statistics and spiritual information in their talks!!! I can't think of anything else so I get nothing out of the talk 

[Shawnster]

5 minutes ago, shali said:

I'm sorry but it bugs the crud out of me when Brothers don't update the statistics and spiritual information in their talks!!! I can't think of anything else so I get nothing out of the talk 

I'm most cases the revised outlines are considerably different. These are much more than just revised stats or data. 

 

I have outline #23 "Life does have a purpose." The vast majority of the talk was about creation, Earth's place in the solar system, water cycle, earth's ability to repair itself.  Only the conclusion did it bring out scriptures and spiritual points.  The entire talk was updated  and now only 1 little 8 min section is devoted to Jehovah's physical creations. It's a major overhaul. 

[Tbs77]

How many brothers have outlines that are revised with already selected pictures that don’t use either, the revised outline let alone the selected pics?

[Thesauron]

This is one reason why we do not circulate talks, no matter how “good” they appear to be.

[New World Explorer]

I like "updating" my talks even when they are not formally revised.

I have updated one 2 weeks ago, now working on another one.

What do I mean by "updating?" 

 

1. Providing simpler approach and clear understanding of the subject.

2. Refining illustrations

3.Providing more targeted explanations of the scriptures cited.

4. Checking jw.org for newer information to reflect our most current understanding of the subject/scripture etc. (when applicable) 

 

I do not subscribe to the theory that once PT is prepared, then it's locked and dusted. 

For me personally, I see benefits of reviewing and "improving" talks all the time. (Within a reason and time available to do that) 

 

 

 

[carlos]

2 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

What do I mean by "updating?" 

I agree. A talk evolves with time. As you give it more times you notice some points need polishing, while others work well. Circumstances change also. What was in the news (and in everybody's mind) five years ago is completely different from what is today.

 

If possible, I also try to take into account the audience. I ask the brothers if there will be students present at the meeting. If there are, I include some points for them and try to explain all theocratic terms. Sometimes if I know the elder who invites me I ask if there's any specific need in the congregation the talk may address.

 

 

[Keep Fighting]

(This is normally) In most of the congregations there is a Coordinator for public talks (dont know the English name, sorry) he will ask the brothers when they will have their talk if their outlines are "updated"

He will also know the "need" in the congregation so the best outlines will be prepared as "food at the right time" Elders and MS will try their best to always follow Provb.27:23

This person an elder or ministral servant will work close with CO in the congregation. If the public talk from an elder/MS is not "updated" or come with "disturbance understanding" CAN the Auxiliary Counselor tell the visiting speaker and make he be aware of the matter. In our congregation our CO also are the Auxiliary Counselor and for around 3 years ago a brother from another area was talking about this canoby after the meeting he was so happy for the guidance. Hope you understand. 😃

 

[Hope]

14 hours ago, Tbs77 said:

How many brothers have outlines that are revised with already selected pictures that don’t use either, the revised outline let alone the selected pics?

I attended a congregation this past Spring that had Philip Ingram (singer of many of our songs) as the speaker.  His talk was good... but it used pix from the Revelation book!  You could tell the outline was older... but he's been giving that talks to many different congregations.  :shrug: 

15 hours ago, shali said:

I'm sorry but it bugs the crud out of me when Brothers don't update the statistics and spiritual information in their talks!!! I can't think of anything else so I get nothing out of the talk 

Same...

Edited October 14, 2021 by Hope

[Tbs77]

I used a pic from revelation book because pure worship book doesn’t have a pic of prostitute sitting on waters….….
I replaced the word harlot with prostitute, too

Agape

[Tbs77]

I'm sorry but it bugs the crud out of me when Brothers don't update the statistics and spiritual information in their talks!!! I can't think of anything else so I get nothing out of the talk 

Brother in today’s talk said, “ Go down to Blockbuster”….

SMH

[Thesauron]

Brother in today’s talk said, “ Go down to Blockbuster”….

SMH

He probably meant “netflix and chill.”

[jwhess]

How many times do we all hold on to something (idea, phrase, etc) that is not accurate or "up-to-date".  Just the other day someone used the expression "Broad and Spacious" road leading to destruction.  The scripture in Matthew describes the Gate and the Road,  It is a broad "gate" and a spacious "road" in Matthew 7:13.  The same is true of the following verse.  Narrow describes the "gate" and cramped describes the "road"..

 

I started my journey with Jehovah's people using the King James version of the Bible.  For me it I remember the phrase as "Wide is the gate and broad the way".  Similarly I readily recall the following verse as "Strait is the gate and narrow is the way"...the proverbial 'straight and narrow' expression.

 

I try to update both my talks and my expressions (and thinking) for the benefit of the audience,