no country for women

[Ishaya]

 

I watched this documentary on the dowry crisis and the  associated humiliating condition of women in India.

it reveals that couples fear to have female child because of the dowry crisis,and commonly resolve to foeticide to  avoid this.

Ultrasound is banned because of this situation.

It makes me very sick,and i wonder why dowry is such an issue in some places.

[carlos]

In Bible times, as in some countries today, it was the bridegroom who paid a bride price to the bride's parents. Although I dislike that custom too because basically you were buying a bride, at least it meant a bride was valuable and worth paying a high price for. But dowry, where the bride family has to pay the bridegroom, that's humiliating. It's like they are paying to get rid of an undesirable daughter.

 

Dowry is forbidden in India since 1961 but, as with many other traditional customs, it's still followed by most of the population. India is also infamously know for the huge number of rapes, even group rapes, that take place constantly. The Indian government is sincerely trying to put an end to those barbaric traditions, but it's so difficult to change the mentality of people.

 

On the other hand, our brothers and sisters and India are a wonderful example of how divine principles are much higher than human traditions.

[BLEmom]

Even with the bride price, there can be humiliation. What if your sister is pretty and your parents are happier with her  because they can get more money?  Is the focus on marrying the daughter to someone rich or someone kind?   
It’s just another way mankind has messed up the institution of marriage and families. 

For many years this went on in China for different reasons. If they were only able to have one child, they wanted it to be a boy because boys are more valued.  

[Dustparticle]

I feel sad for women and my sister in those area. One sick world.

[daydream]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28540220/

Quote

Female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) is a traditional practice in which the external female genitalia is partially or totally incised or excised for a non-therapeutic reason, usually without the consent of the individual. FGM/C is common in Africa with varying prevalence in different countries, though the incidence is reducing because it is considered a human rights issue with tremendous advocacy for its elimination by mainly nongovernmental organizations.

 

[Ishaya]

On Tue Sep 21 2021 at 11:05 AM, carlos said:

In Bible times, as in some countries today, it was the bridegroom who paid a bride price to the bride's parents. Although I dislike that custom too because basically you were buying a bride, at least it meant a bride was valuable and worth paying a high price for. But dowry, where the bride family has to pay the bridegroom, that's humiliating. It's like they are paying to get rid of an undesirable daughter.

 

about the bride price,it seems people feel differently about it.but im sure alot of men will like that practice repealed.but i doubt the women will like it.

the women don't like to look cheap,and to not have the bride price paid makes alot of them feel that way.atimes they even get taunted by friends.some even give the man the money to pay the bride price if the man cannot afford it (which is commendable),alot of women who are rich actually help the men out during payment for the marriage requirements.

 

 

im not sure if there are places where men marry today without paying the bride price.it will be nice to know how they do it.

 

 

[Ishaya]

On Tue Sep 21 2021 at 12:58 PM, BLEmom said:

Even with the bride price, there can be humiliation. What if your sister is pretty and your parents are happier with her  because they can get more money?  Is the focus on marrying the daughter to someone rich or someone kind?   
It’s just another way mankind has messed up the institution of marriage and families. 

For many years this went on in China for different reasons. If they were only able to have one child, they wanted it to be a boy because boys are more valued.  

I agree,infact the bride price can get outrageously high in some places especially in eastern nigeria.

some men had a very bad experience with the covid lockdown in nigeria.after several months of savings to pay for bride price,the lockdown made them to spend all the money for feeding instead.now they have to start saving all over again.

that is sufficiently humiliating i guess.

[carlos]

1 hour ago, Ishaya said:

im not sure if there are places where men marry today without paying the bride price.it will be nice to know how they do it.

There is no custom to pay a bride price either in Europe or America (the whole continent). A man and a woman simply get married, without any party paying a price to the other. Typically their parents, as well as relatives and friends, will give them gifts to help them start their married life. In the past it was common for the man to have a formal meeting with his girlfriend's parents and ask them for her hand, but even that custom is disappearing, at least where I live. Now most couples simply inform their parents that they have decided to get married. It is no longer considered that they need their consent.

 

I agree that paying a bride price where that's customary is not necessarily a bad thing. In a way it can be viewed as a show of appreciation for all the efforts those parents have invested in bringing up their daughter. But it can create some unpleasant situations. For example, a spiritual and mature brother and sister are in love with each other, but her parents ask for a huge bride price that he has no means to pay. That's sad. Of course, spiritual Christian parents will not give in to greed, rather will be glad that their daughter has a good brother as a husband.

 

Of course I am not neutral since I am looking at things through the lens of my own culture, but I like it a lot more the idea of a couple being able to get married by their own choice, without needing to pay any price nor ask parents for consent.

 

On the other hand, regarding dowry, I read that in some cultures it is paid TO the bride by her parents. In those cultures it is considered her part of the inheritance. I like that custom better.

[Old]

An individual that exhorts a particularly high, ie greedy bride price may be dealt with judicially.

[BLEmom]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

On the other hand, regarding dowry, I read that in some cultures it is paid TO the bride by her parents. In those cultures it is considered her part of the inheritance. I like that custom better.

It’s a lovely custom. The bride would feel valued as a daughter and have something of her own to start a new life with. 

[Ishaya]

13 hours ago, carlos said:

There is no custom to pay a bride price either in Europe or America (the whole continent). A man and a woman simply get married, without any party paying a price to the other. Typically their parents, as well as relatives and friends, will give them gifts to help them start their married life. In the past it was common for the man to have a formal meeting with his girlfriend's parents and ask them for her hand, but even that custom is disappearing, at least where I live. Now most couples simply inform their parents that they have decided to get married. It is no longer considered that they need their consent.

 

I agree that paying a bride price where that's customary is not necessarily a bad thing. In a way it can be viewed as a show of appreciation for all the efforts those parents have invested in bringing up their daughter. But it can create some unpleasant situations. For example, a spiritual and mature brother and sister are in love with each other, but her parents ask for a huge bride price that he has no means to pay. That's sad. Of course, spiritual Christian parents will not give in to greed, rather will be glad that their daughter has a good brother as a husband.

 

Of course I am not neutral since I am looking at things through the lens of my own culture, but I like it a lot more the idea of a couple being able to get married by their own choice, without needing to pay any price nor ask parents for consent.

 

On the other hand, regarding dowry, I read that in some cultures it is paid TO the bride by her parents. In those cultures it is considered her part of the inheritance. I like that custom better.

Im not sure how marriage got this easy in your place, but i admire it.

some people have argued though that divorces are very high in foreign countries because marriage is not made to look like a serious thing.

so people see it as something they can easily enter and come out of when they are no longer comfortable.

im not sure if really  there is a relationship.

 

On the other hand,Some have supported  that  keeping marriage requirements very high is good because it makes marriage a no-go area for someone who is not really prepared for it.they believe that the rigorous marriage requirements serves to determine the worthiness of a man to keep a wife and properly take care of a family.

common experience has shown that girls who simply elope with their boyfriends end up being deserted by those men after having kids for them. and some suffer serious domestic violence from those men.

surprisingly because of bad experiences alot of women support this idea that marriage shoud not be made very easy for men.they also feel that a man can only prove that she is really valueable to him if he is willing to follow the difficult requirements.

 

but i hope things really get easy in the future because i really feel concern for the men.Job is scarce,even for those working,the salary is very meager.

I visited one of my congregation elder yesterday.he lost his wife after three kids and he is still a young man and would want to marry again but he has changed jobs three times because payments is too small to even support him and his family.

 

[Ishaya]

13 hours ago, carlos said:

spiritual Christian parents will not give in to greed, rather will be glad that their daughter has a good brother as a husband.

 

You are very correct.

Christian parents usually have a more considerate view of marriage requirements.

however it becomes very challenging if the kinsmen of the girl's father are largely nonwitnesses.

this is because it is the kinsmen who take charge in negotiating the girl's marriage requirements and bride price,not the girl's father.

which means that a christian father cannot simply give his consent for the marriage until the demands of his kinsmen are met.,otherwise it may incur serious ostracism on him and his family.

so what a christian father  does is to try the much he can in appealing to his kinsmen to get some considerations for the suitor.

[M.J.]

@Ishaya

What would happen if they eloped?

[Hope]

Closest thing to a "bride price" here is maybe an engagement ring not made of plastic and having a job and place to live that can support a wife?

 

It is surprising and sad, however, to learn that many brothers believe even those expectations are too high and reveal a materialistc spirit in the sister.  But they expect a sterling Proverbs 31 wife.

 

I have heard many years of casual conversations on this topic and it is disappointing to say the least.

 

On a certain level, it's not a bad custom to expect the man to have *something* before he takes a wife.

[Ishaya]

11 hours ago, M.J. said:

@Ishaya

What would happen if they eloped?

If they elope,then they won't be married.they will just be cohabiting instead.

Marriage in my place is mainly by consent of parents.signing of papers is not necessary except for couples intending to travel abroad.

 

A traditional event is used to signify full parental consent.papers are not needed and not usually recognized.

which means even if lovers elope and get papers,the community may still see their relationship as an abominable one.It is not usually adviceable for christians to do that unless they have to live very far away from the community.

 

[Ishaya]

1 hour ago, Ishaya said:

If they elope,then they won't be married.they will just be cohabiting instead.

Marriage in my place is mainly by consent of parents.signing of papers is not necessary except for couples intending to travel abroad.

 

A traditional event is used to signify full parental consent.papers are not needed and not usually recognized.

which means even if lovers elope and get papers,the community may still see their relationship as an abominable one.It is not usually adviceable for christians to do that unless they have to live very far away from the community.

 

 

to elope is harder here because people like to maintain close ties with extended family members.

[M.J.]

4 hours ago, Ishaya said:

If they elope,then they won't be married.they will just be cohabiting instead.

Marriage in my place is mainly by consent of parents.signing of papers is not necessary except for couples intending to travel abroad.

 

A traditional event is used to signify full parental consent.papers are not needed and not usually recognized.

which means even if lovers elope and get papers,the community may still see their relationship as an abominable one.It is not usually adviceable for christians to do that unless they have to live very far away from the community.

 

This must be very difficult for JW's with unbelieving parents. What if the parents refuse to ever let them marry a JW?

[EccentricM]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:37 AM, Ishaya said:

Im not sure how marriage got this easy in your place, but i admire it.

some people have argued though that divorces are very high in foreign countries because marriage is not made to look like a serious thing.

so people see it as something they can easily enter and come out of when they are no longer comfortable.

im not sure if really  there is a relationship.

It's very easy. If I wanted I could meet a girl who was willing today and if she wanted to be married we'd just go a register office and be married within the week, no questions asked, we wouldn't even need a ceremony if we didn't want one, we'd just sign a document, no permissions needed by anyone else. It would be seen as lawful, nobody would care.

 

However, culturally, it does not work like that, couples spend time dating, or becoming friends first, and if they fall in love they may choose to get married. Of course, in this part of the world it's just seen as a ceremonial tradition, marriage nor the bonds of marriage mean nothing to the people of the world here, it's just a formality. Couples live together "as if" they were married first, before getting married (if they ever do).

A husband and wife in this part of the world is just a glorified girlfriend and boyfriend, they can abandon each other whenever they wish, the vows mean nothing, the wedding ceremony means nothing, it's just for show. It's why many don't marry at all in this part of the world, but just live together as a married couple would, without ever being married.

 

So the "relationship" is there, but the marriage often isn't, as they are not equated as the same thing here, a marriage is not a relationship and a relationship is not a marriage.

All marriage achieves here is a contract to get your surname changed and a fancy day out with an excuse to get drunk at a party. But after that the marriage is meaningless, because nothing has changed, they go on living as they would have in an unmarried relationship, they can break up when they want and get a divorce within the same week no questions asked.

 

More often than not now, the "children" of the couple act as bridesmaids or pageboys for the parents getting married, it's seen as unusual in our culture (in the world) to get married before having children, but instead, giving birth to children usually then encourages marriage, but even then, it's purely lip service. Marriage is more of a one day event, than it is a contract or promise to someone else.

Edited September 26, 2021 by EccentricM

[Ishaya]

7 hours ago, M.J. said:

This must be very difficult for JW's with unbelieving parents. What if the parents refuse to ever let them marry a JW?

The problem is not usually about marrying a JW specifically,but rather parents may have other qualities which they expect or desire.

 

Some non-witness parents are very understanding and are mainly concerned about the behavior of the wife-to-be or suitor.if it is a good person,they give their consent.but if they are not comfortable with the person they ask you to end the relationship.

The bible gives parents authority over their children,the same way it gives the husband authority over the wife.

 

It is true that some non-witness parents  may be harder to deal with. the would-be couple will usually have to alienate themselves from the extended families to proceed with the marriage.

the extended family may not recognize the union but at least the marriage registry does (if they sign papers.).

 

however,one's conscience  may have  to struggle with the thought of having been  disobedient to parents.

 

how can someone justify that?

 

at what point does the authority of parents over their children cease?

 

is it proper to elope?

[EccentricM]

44 minutes ago, Ishaya said:

however,one's conscience  may have  to struggle with the thought of having been  disobedient to parents.

 

how can someone justify that?

 

at what point does the authority of parents over their children cease?

 

is it proper to elope?

Easy.

 

The Bible says to compare headship in family in the same way Jehovah is head of, Christ is head of the Congregation, and the Congregation Elders are the heads of the flock.

 

This is speaking on spiritual matters. If a parent begins to "irritate" their children, they are breaking the Bible's commands, and therefore the child of the parent would not be required to submit, in the same way that if a leader of a Congregation begins to teach unbiblical things, we are not required to listen to them. For example, a child is not required to submit to sexual abuse or to physical beatings just because the person doing it is their father or mother. The same can be said of overly controlling parents.

 

The Bible in harmonisation creates unity and balance, nobody has power over another person, but instead, people who "lead" merely have responsiblilty to advise and teach, not dictate and command. If they begin to dictate or command, then they have broken the law of Christ.

 

Matthew 23:8-21: “But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

1 Corinthians 11:3: "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God".

 

Acts 5:29: "Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men".

 

 

Therefore, if anyone in a headship position begins to abuse it as an excuse to control those under them, rather than to simply guide or teach them, they forfeit their authority, and the person who is the submissive position will resort to appealing to the immediate higher authority above that individual.

 

God>Christ>Congregation>Husband>wife/parents>children

If anyone in that chain breaks the command of the person higher than them, then they can no longer tell the person below them what to do. In this case an abusive or overly controlling parent is breaking this command:  Colossians 3:21: "You fathers, do not be exasperating your children".

 

 

This goes for the Congregation, parents and children. We must "get out of her" (her being false religion, but the princible can apply in every day lives too on a smaller scale) in all respects, no matter who the person in that chain is who begins to abuse the Bible's commands. And if they do that they are taken out the chain.

 

Example of Harmony: God>Christ>Congregation>Husband>wife/parents>children

Examples of Disharmony:
God>Christ>Congregation>Husband>wife/parents>children
God>Christ>Congregation>Husband>wife/parents>children

God>Christ>Congregation>Husband>wife/parents>children

God>Christ>Congregation>Husband>wife/parents>children

 

In harmony everyone is doing what is biblically correct and there is a sense of unified organisatio, fairness and cooperation, in disharmony, when someone in the chain is doing wrong (red) the person below has to go the next person who is still "green" (doing what is right).

Edited September 26, 2021 by EccentricM

[Thesauron]

The problem is not usually about marrying a JW specifically,but rather parents may have other qualities which they expect or desire.
 
Some non-witness parents are very understanding and are mainly concerned about the behavior of the wife-to-be or suitor.if it is a good person,they give their consent.but if they are not comfortable with the person they ask you to end the relationship.
The bible gives parents authority over their children,the same way it gives the husband authority over the wife.
 
It is true that some non-witness parents  may be harder to deal with. the would-be couple will usually have to alienate themselves from the extended families to proceed with the marriage.
the extended family may not recognize the union but at least the marriage registry does (if they sign papers.).
 
however,one's conscience  may have  to struggle with the thought of having been  disobedient to parents.
 
how can someone justify that?
 
at what point does the authority of parents over their children cease?
 
is it proper to elope?

The scriptural authority ends when a person is married, or old enough to marry. Parents have no say about anything, scripturally, when it comes to their married children. They are now one, and their own family unit, with ties closer than that of a mother and child.

You should, if course, always honour your parents, even when they are elderly.

“Children—young and old—honor their parents when they respect and obey them. (Leviticus 19:3; Proverbs 1:8) Even when grown children later have families of their own, they continue to take a loving interest in their parents. For example, they ensure that their parents are well cared for in their old age, even giving them financial help when needed.—Matthew 15:4-6; 1 Timothy 5:4, 8.”

Exodus 20:12—“Honor Your Father and Your Mother” https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=502300107&srctype=wol&srcid=share

“Usually, parental authority is being replaced by the authority of the husband. God authorizes him to exercise headship over his wife. (1 Cor. 11:3) Some new husbands and wives do not find this to be easy. According to God’s Word, a wife is to accept that she will be directed by her husband rather than by her parents. Relationships with in-laws may become strained and cause tribulation for the newlyweds.”

Jehovah Provides Comfort in All Our Trials https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2017441&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=12

[Hope]

Quote

@Ishaya wrote:  The bible gives parents authority over their children, the same way it gives the husband authority over the wife.

No.  The Bible does NOT. When you become an adult and move out and/or when you marry, your parents no longer have any authority over their children. 

 

If a woman is out living on her own, her head is the Christ- not her fleshly father.

[Ishaya]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

No.  The Bible does NOT. When you become an adult and move out and/or when you marry, your parents no longer have any authority over their children. 

 

If a woman is out living on her own, her head is the Christ- not her fleshly father.

 

It makes sense when children get married, i can think of scriptures to support that.

but about not being under you parents authority when you're an unmarried adult doesn't seem scriptural to me,since i cannot think of any verse to support that.

 

I think a better way to put it is that parents may decide to give unmarried adult children freedom to make their own decisions (which is a fine thing on the part of the parents).

but it will seem presumptous if unmarried adult children declare themselves free while their parents are still alive.

 

It seems logical that parental authority only ceases when;

>adult children get married or

>when parents are not alive or

>when parents use their authority in a way that opposes Jehovah.

[Thesauron]

 
It makes sense when children get married, i can think of scriptures to support that.
but about not being under you parents authority when you're an unmarried adult doesn't seem scriptural to me,since i cannot think of any verse to support that.
 
I think a better way to put it is that parents may decide to give unmarried adult children freedom to make their own decisions (which is a fine thing on the part of the parents).
but it will seem presumptous if unmarried adult children declare themselves free while their parents are still alive.
 
It seems logical that parental authority only ceases when;
>adult children get married or
>when parents are not alive or
>when parents use their authority in a way that opposes Jehovah.

As far as we know, Jesus Christ wasn’t married. He made sure his mother was taken care of, and hence gave her the honour befitting her. Nowhere does the Bible in any way indicate that he was an adult who could make his own decisions simply because his mother and father let him.

In some societies, becoming an adult means you have reached a certain age, according to the law, but it is also a gradual matter when you take on more and more responsibility. Eventually, you leave home and set up your own.

In other societies, you reach a milestone after which you are considered an adult.

Either way, from now on, you make decisions that are yours and yours alone. Your parents have no say in them, and also no responsibility for them.

No human, not even a parent, is the head of a single adult Christian man or woman. Christ is.

[Old]

10 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

Either way, from now on, you make decisions that are yours and yours alone. Your parents have no say in them, and also no responsibility for them.

Would not the account in Mark speak contrary to the "no responibility for them"?

 

(Mark 7:11-13) . . .‘If a man says to his father or his mother: “Whatever I have that could benefit you is corban (that is, a gift dedicated to God),”’ 12 you no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother. 13 Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. . . .