Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Shawnster]

12 minutes ago, Doug said:

I agree that the FDS wouldn't have published this alternative understanding if it was merely a possibility.  It does give the impression that it's a probability, and why.

 

I actually disagree. Here is why.  This is what the Watchtower actually said:

Quote

 

Put simply, we do not know for sure the timing of the future proclamation of “peace and security.”

 

However, after further careful consideration, it seems that there is another possible explanation that we cannot rule out.

 

What, then, may we expect? In the near future, “the ten horns” and the greatly empowered wild beast will destroy false religion. This will be the start of the great tribulation. We also know that at some point, the nations will proclaim “peace and security.” When will that happen? We have discussed two possibilities.

 

 

The Watchtower is simply proposing two possibilities without leaning more toward one than the other. It seems to me that this second possibility is a new understanding and that, in the past, the Slave was only considering one possibility. 

 

Not that it matters. We will have to wait and see. The destruction of false religion will definitely be either before or after the cry of peace and security. 

 

 

[New World Explorer]

7 hours ago, shali said:

I know some friends have speculated that the GT could last years (like in the case of the Christians that fled Jerusalem when the Romans left with their encamped armies and it would be over 3 years before the Romans returned to destroy Jerusalem). 

Ehh.. don't blame them ... they don't eat enough donuts to have sane view of things ... hmmm.. or maybe it's vice versa?  🤔

[LeolaRootStew]

I have always believed the GT would last years precisely because of the Jerusalem situation and I know I'm not the only one. I hope I'm wrong.

[Dages]

4 hours ago, Shawnster said:

The Watchtower is simply proposing two possibilities without leaning more toward one than the other. It seems to me that this second possibility is a new understanding and that, in the past, the Slave was only considering one possibility. 

 

Not that it matters. We will have to wait and see. The destruction of false religion will definitely be either before or after the cry of peace and security. 

This flexibility helps us with our readiness.

[New World Explorer]

39 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I have always believed the GT would last years precisely because of the Jerusalem situation and I know I'm not the only one. I hope I'm wrong.

Did FDS ever suggested such an option? past ..present? I am just curious.. 

[Todd komaniak]

My view is that in Thessalonians it says when they declare peace and security then sudden destruction so in my opinion the government is going to declare Peace and security then somehow religion steps in to break that peace of security governments get rid of all religion which is put in the hearts by jehovah

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

Ehh.. don't blame them ... they don't eat enough donuts to have sane view of things ... hmmm.. or maybe it's vice versa?  🤔

 

 

Donuts don't agree with me like they used to. And that makes me sad. 

[LeolaRootStew]

2 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

Did FDS ever suggested such an option? past ..present? I am just curious.. 

 

I'm not sure. It could be one of those baseless assumptions I've taken for granted but can't find a source for. It's probably because it's compared to the fall of Jerusalem and that unexpectedly took longer than they thought it would.

[Sackedbysapp]

How long until we see that announcement? Just looking for opinions here…..1 year or less or 1 year or more?

[Lance]

I was thinking of our expectations of the Kingdom… it  is not an isolated, lonely journey…it’s a shared race with past and present witnesses, all awaiting the same finish line. Heb 11:… 

Heb 12:1 

So, then,……( after a review of faithful ones) .. because we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us,(past tense) 

let us also throw off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, (present tense) and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us

 

A good reframe: “I am not waiting alone; I am running with Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and countless others.”

 

2nd reframe : From “When will it come?” to “How can I endure today with joy?” and 

”We will run with endurance.. not anxiety”

 

Bottom line we don’t know .. and that is a good thing …

 

Expectation isn’t about knowing when, but about knowing Who. 

 

[trottigy]

5 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

Did FDS ever suggested such an option? past ..present? I am just curious.. 

 

As far back as I can remember... The slave compared what happened to Jerusalem starting at 66 until 70 as a parallel to what will happen at the GT. In fact, much of Jesus account at Matt 24 applies to both. Here is a more recent article that did just that ...

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015523#h=8:0-10:397

 

Quote

IMAGINE that you are a Christian living in Jerusalem in 66 C.E. A lot has been happening around you. First, the Roman procurator Florus seized 17 talents from the sacred temple treasury. Immediately, Jews rose in revolt, slaughtering the Roman forces .....

 

Due to the Slave's regularly comparing the 2, I also believe the GT will be years ... Maybe that same 3.5 ...

Edited 19 hours ago by trottigy

[Sweet Tooth]

4 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Donuts don't agree with me like they used to. And that makes me sad. 

We are almost there @Shawnster. Hold on! Donut Give up! (Pun intended) 

[Sofia]

 

 

[Ysaias]

Time to revisit these talks! I'm putting the oldest one first.

 

2022 AM: Geoffrey W. Jackson: Be Alert, Be Decisive

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwb-100_2_VIDEO

"What do we learn from this brief review of the events of 66 C.E.? It wasn’t just one event —was it?— but a series of events. Were you amazed at how many events occurred in 66 C.E.? And that was just a brief summary."

"It’s not just one event coming up in the future. It can be a series of events all happening at the same time that could be distracting."

 

2023 AM: Geoffrey W. Jackson: What Do We Know About Jehovah’s Future Judgments?

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwb-108_19_VIDEO

"How long will that time period be from start to finish? The answer is we don’t know. We do know that many events are foretold to happen during that time period. But these events may all occur in a reasonably short period of time."

"We know that the closer we get to the great tribulation, the clearer our understanding is of what will occur. Yes, our understanding is clarified according to the proper time and also in a way that will help us not only to endure the great tribulation but also to prosper during that period of time."

 

2024 AM: Geoffrey W. Jackson: Don’t Be Surprised by Sudden Changes

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwb-120_10_VIDEO

"So, what’s the takeaway? Don’t be complacent. Don’t think, ‘Oh, this is going to gradually change.’ No, some things won’t gradually change. They will occur suddenly as acts of God! So be ready, and don’t be surprised by sudden change!"

 

[Dhanyel]

I believe that during the great tribulation each one of us will be like a walking library. Jehovah, through the organization, has been training all of us a lot. That’s why reading the Bible, doing personal study, family study, memorizing Kingdom songs, starting conversations, and giving brief and discreet witness has always been so important.

 

If one day everything is taken away  access to JW.org, the ability to go to the Kingdom Hall or the Assembly Hall, or even if it becomes difficult to communicate with the elders or the branch  Jehovah, through his holy spirit, will help us remember who we are and everything we’ve learned. And we will keep preaching.

 

We have already seen many cases in prisons and in times of war where our brothers were literally alone, with no physical or digital resources. Even so, with only their mind and heart, they continued preaching, stayed faithful, and even held the Memorial the best way they could, imagining the bread and the wine.

 

I truly believe in the extraordinary power Jehovah will give his servants during that difficult time that is approaching. People may take everything away from us, but our faith and our love for Jehovah  no one can take that away.

Edited 8 hours ago by Dhanyel

[eliaseje]

17 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I have always believed the GT would last years precisely because of the Jerusalem situation and I know I'm not the only one. I hope I'm wrong.

I question whether the GT will last years because Jesus said if it were not cut short no one would survive. So, this coming tribulation will be more severe of a tribulation than any other. Therefore my personal opinion is that it wont be years in length but who knows.

[Doug]

22 hours ago, Shawnster said:

 

I actually disagree. Here is why.  This is what the Watchtower actually said:

The Watchtower is simply proposing two possibilities without leaning more toward one than the other. It seems to me that this second possibility is a new understanding and that, in the past, the Slave was only considering one possibility. 

 

 

The FDS has been more forthright by saying "We don't know" , even as they present possible scenarios.  They are simply letting us know to keep on the watch for the possibility.  I see their modesty in that.

 

But, Amos 3:7 says Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants.

The time for revealing confidential matters is growing ever shorter.

I personally think this explanation is new light emerging, modestly presented.  For the following reasons:

 

The article says "Let us now take a close look at 1 Thess. 5:2,3. (This 'close look' apparently prompted by the new explanation of Rev 17:17 and the QFR  of November 2025).

It continues: "However, after further careful consideration, it seems there is another possible explanation that we cannot rule out".  (This sounds like an Amos 3:7 moment. Cannot be ruled out. Definitely possible)

 

Add to the above, in the 2023 AM (thanks to Ysaias for quoting it), Br. Jackson said "We know that the closer we get to the great tribulation the clearer our understanding is of what will occur".

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Consider the preponderance of evidence:

Possibility 1 ~  What we have believed for years, first the proclamation of P&S, then the destruction of BtG.

 

Possibility 2 ~ The prostitute has been a force for war and aggression, not P&S.  So, would it be logical for the nations to proclaim P&S with the fomentar of war and aggression still riding the wild beast?

 

There will be little or no time between the proclamation of P&S and the destruction that will come up on those making that cry. The destruction of all those nations would follow with striking suddenness. (Powerful point).

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The FDS is presenting two strong reasons for this new possibility versus the other possibility which has always given rise to many unanswered questions. For example: The idea that the proclamation could be a series of claims, rather than one big one.  And, some have said they think that 1 Thess 5:3 has already been fulfilled.  These speculations are moot if the new possibility is new light and an adjustment of our understanding.  Once BtG has been destroyed, the GT has started.

 

Hopefully, the FDS will follow-up on this QFR in an update or broadcast!

Edited 6 hours ago by Doug
make it better

[Bruceq]

13 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

As far back as I can remember... The slave compared what happened to Jerusalem starting at 66 until 70 as a parallel to what will happen at the GT. In fact, much of Jesus account at Matt 24 applies to both. Here is a more recent article that did just that ...

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015523#h=8:0-10:397

 

 

Due to the Slave's regularly comparing the 2, I also believe the GT will be years ... Maybe that same 3.5 ...

I agree that it will likely be more than just a few days or weeks. They have stated there is a first phase and a respite or interval then a final phase. Also we will be preaching good news and some will respond likely during the interval just as the vast mixed company joined after the ten plagues on the false gods but before the Red Sea finale. A first phase [ten plagues] and the final phase [Red Sea] with the Exodus being the interval when they all fled. Considering the timing of each phase the final phase is likely to be the shortest with the first phase taking maybe several months and the longest being possibly the respite. Thus, a possible total time of between 1 to 3 years.

[trottigy]

1 hour ago, eliaseje said:

I question whether the GT will last years because Jesus said if it were not cut short no one would survive. So, this coming tribulation will be more severe of a tribulation than any other. Therefore my personal opinion is that it wont be years in length but who knows.

 

You'll want to do a little research and the meaning of those verses.

 

This is paragraph 6 of that same 2015 article:

 

Quote

How will God’s people fare at that time? Jesus explains: “In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matt. 24:22) As we considered, in 66 C.E. the tribulation was “cut short.” This allowed “the chosen ones,” anointed Christians, to flee the city and its environs. Likewise, the initial part of the future great tribulation will be “cut short” because of “the chosen ones.” The political “ten horns” will not be allowed to annihilate God’s people. Rather, there will be a brief respite.

 

The "cutting short" is in reference to the initial phase not the entire thing. 

 

This explains how the UN attacks ALL religions, but we are preserved from being completely destroyed along with the rest ... As the attack on all religion is cut short from destroying all "the chosen ones" / God's people.

[Bruceq]

Under "Great Tribulation" in the index note how many events occur. Some of which are at the same time:

This is before our current change in the possible timing of peace and security. I wrote in the "phases" in the timeline:

 

events before, in apparent sequence: kr 224; w11 8/15 21; w86 2/15 5-6

gathering of nations (Re 16:14 re 230-233; rs 48-49; ws 19-20

“saying, ‘peace and security!’” (1Th 5:3 w23.02 16; w23.06 13; w23.10 21; w19.09 9-10; w19.10 9; kr 222-224; w13 11/15 12-13; w12 9/15 3-4; w10 7/15 5; g 4/08 7; w04 2/1 20-21; wt 182; w97 6/1 9-10; w86 10/1 18-20; tp 5-7, 85

final sealing of 144,000 (Re 7:1-3 rr 180; w16.01 23; w15 3/15 15; kr 224; w13 11/15 13; w10 9/15 28; w07 1/1 30-31; w07 12/15 16; re 115-116, 277

----------------------------------FIRST PHASE------------------------------------------

events during, in apparent sequence: ijwbq article 115; w23.10 21; w22.05 16-17; mwb22.11 11; mwb20.08 3; rr 64, 66, 69-70; w15 7/15 15-19; kr 224-225; w13 7/15 4-5; w12 4/15 22; w10 7/15 3; w08 5/15 15-16; w07 12/15 16; re 277; wt 182-183; w99 5/1 12-13; w97 4/1 14-16; w96 4/1 18-20; w96 8/15 19-20; kl 106; w94 3/1 19-23; w93 5/1 23-26; w86 10/1 20

heavens darkened for entire period (Re 6:12, 13 re 109-110; w88 10/15 17

disgusting thing stands “in a holy place,” “where it should not be” (Mt 24:15; Mr 13:14 w13 7/15 4-5; w99 5/1 15-18

Babylon the Great destroyed: ijwbq article 115; w22.05 16; w19.09 10-11; w19.10 14-15; rr 69-70, 168-170; w15 7/15 15-16; kr 223, 226; w13 7/15 4-5; w13 11/15 13; w12 9/15 4-5; g 11/12 12-13; w10 9/15 28; w09 3/15 18; re 256-258, 267-276; w97 4/1 14-15; w96 8/15 19

tribulation “cut short” (Mt 24:22; Mr 13:20 w19.10 15; w15 7/15 16; kr 223, 226; w13 7/15 5; w10 9/15 28; w99 5/1 10; w96 8/15 17-18

-------------------------------------INTERVAL-------------------------------------------

flight to safety (Mt 24:16; Mr 13:14; Lu 21:21 w15 7/15 16; w12 4/15 26; w11 1/15 4; w99 5/1 18-19; w96 6/1 14-19

preaching “good news of the Kingdom” continues (Mt 24:14 w25.08 31

judgment message proclaimed (Re 16:21 w25.08 31; w20.05 15; w19.10 16; rr 66, 198; w15 7/15 16; w08 7/15 7; re 234

------------------------------------FINAL PHASE----------------------------------------

nations attack Jehovah’s people (Eze 38 ijwbq article 115; w24.05 12; w22.05 17; w22.10 16-17; w20.05 15; w19.09 11-12; w19.10 17; rr 186-188; w15 7/15 16-17, 19; w14 11/15 27; kr 227; w12 4/15 22, 26; w12 9/15 5-6; w09 3/15 18-19; w07 8/15 26; w03 6/1 15-22; w02 10/1 16; dp 283, 285; w97 4/1 15; w96 8/15 19-20

king of the north attacks Jehovah’s people (Da 11:44, 45 w20.05 15-16; rr 183; w15 5/15 29-30; dp 282; w93 11/1 21

‘kings of entire inhabited earth’ attack Jehovah’s people (Re 16:14, 16; 17:14; 19:19, 20 rr 183

“Assyrian” attacks Jehovah’s people (Mic 5:5 rr 183; w13 11/15 20

during attack, Jehovah’s people ‘enter inner rooms’ (Isa 26:20 w25.05 12-13; w23.07 7; w14 11/15 27

celestial phenomena (Mt 24:29; Mr 13:24, 25; Lu 21:25, 26 rr 198; w15 7/15 17; jy 258; kr 226; w94 2/15 17-20

Jesus comes, arrives (Mt 24:30; Mr 13:26; Lu 21:27 rr 179-180, 198; w15 7/15 17; kr 226; w13 7/15 7-8, 24; w98 9/15 16-18; w94 2/15 20-21

“chosen ones” gathered (Mt 24:31; Mr 13:27 ijwbq article 115; w24.02 2; w19.10 17-18; rr 198-199; w16.01 26; w15 7/15 18-19; kr 227-228; w13 7/15 5; w94 2/15 21

“faithful and discreet slave” appointed over all master’s belongings (Mt 24:46, 47 od 20; w13 7/15 24-25; w13 12/15 16

judgment of sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-46), deserving ones marked on forehead (Eze 9:4 ijwbq article 115; w24.09 20-21, 24; rr 179-180; w15 7/15 17-19; kr 226; w13 7/15 6-7; w10 9/15 28-29; w99 5/1 13; w95 10/15 22-24

war of Armageddon (Re 16:16; 17:14; 19:11-21 ijwbq article 115; w22.05 17; w22.09 21; rr 180; kr 228; w13 7/15 5-6; w97 4/1 15

Edited 5 hours ago by Bruceq

[eliaseje]

50 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

You'll want to do a little research and the meaning of those verses.

 

This is paragraph 6 of that same 2015 article:

 

 

The "cutting short" is in reference to the initial phase not the entire thing. 

 

This explains how the UN attacks ALL religions, but we are preserved from being completely destroyed along with the rest ... As the attack on all religion is cut short from destroying all "the chosen ones" / God's people.

True but also false religions destruction will be swift as in one day (not to be taken as a literal day) as Revelation states. An day goes by pretty quick...then that day must be cut short...the GT will last more than weeks and months but again just my personal thoughts that it wont take 2 to 3 years. 

Edited 5 hours ago by eliaseje
I said hour when I meant day

[ChrisC]

Hiding literature:

For several years I had hidden an old small iPhone stuffed with everything, but that died. The safest place to store everything is obviously in my head - it does feel like I retain more scriptural details recently thanks to the ease of access of study material in JW Library, the slower Bible reading schedule etc. + holy spirit.

We wont go hungry anyway.

 

——-

 

1Th 5:

”You need nothing to be written to you, … you yourselves know very well”

Either the holy spirit had enlightened all the Thessalonian brothers or Paul had given them some awesome talks!

 

——-

 

I just said to Emma: "Did I give you your [cup of] tea? Because we are discussing peace and security and I’m all distracted.

She replied: "You would know if you didn’t, because there would be sudden destruction."

[feebee]

Things move a lot more quickly today than they did in the first century. 

 

Christians fled Jerusalem in 66CE, and society started breaking down soon after.

 

The Roman army returned to Jerusalem around the time of the Passover in 70 CE. So in just 4 months and 25 days, from April 3 to August 30, the destruction of Jerusalem had been completed.

 

The Insight book under "Jerusalem" says "Thus, the tribulation, though, intense, was remarkably short".

[Bruceq]

Study project to prepare for the great tribulation: 

Without using any Bible try to write down on a plain piece of paper how many Scriptures you can recall. You will be surprised how educated Jehovah's people are. If the authorities do take away our Bibles and electronic devices holy spirit can help you basically write the Bible from memory on a piece of paper and if they take that away remember it came from you so it was never taken away after all. If you can only recall 10 Scriptures then that is better than none. But I am sure most of us can recall more then 10. Remember Jehovah will help you not to become spiritually malnourished. Pray and Jehovah will do the rest. And of course we are not alone. In our inner rooms will be our brothers and sisters imagine how many Scriptures we well remember then.

Edited 4 hours ago by Bruceq

[Áine]

I just feel that we have an awful lot more clarification to come and that the FDS are watching closely

 

 Jehovah gives us food at the proper time and at a time that we are able to digest it.

 

 We may surmise and to some extent speculate but to be perfectly honest we don’t have the full facts at this time and so in many ways it becomes a fruitless exercise