Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Dustparticle]

3 hours ago, Richie said:

 

I think sis. Sofia is referrring to Daniel 11:45b..and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

 

This verse is a bit mind boggling prior to GT.

What makes you think that this  verse refers prior to GT?

Edited March 4 by Dustparticle

[Richie]

1 minute ago, Dustparticle said:

What make you think that this  received refers to prior  to GT?

Dan. 12:1 had been a talk by bro.. Splane I think more than a year ago or more and from another most updated reference. Several enlightenments from chapter 12  that may complicate the sorrounding contexts like Dan. 11:44, 45. I am sure the book of Daniel will have a future revsion like the book of Ezekiel. For now we are just keeping the new lights piece by piece and some unfolded verses like 11:44, 45 are for our personal studies and notes. So far Dan 12:1 is the start of GT (Mat. 24:21) and will end up to Armageddon. 

[Dustparticle]

18 minutes ago, Richie said:

Dan. 12:1 had been a talk by bro.. Splane I think more than a year ago or more and from another most updated reference. Several enlightenments from chapter 12  that may complicate the sorrounding contexts like Dan. 11:44, 45. I am sure the book of Daniel will have a future revsion like the book of Ezekiel. For now we are just keeping the new lights piece by piece and some unfolded verses like 11:44, 45 are for our personal studies and notes. So far Dan 12:1 is the start of GT (Mat. 24:21) and will end up to Armageddon. 

 

 

What is prior to the GT is different to during the GT. It is to my understanding that the KOTN will exist up to the GT.

[Richie]

22 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

What is prior to the GT is different to during the GT. It is to my understanding that the KOTN will exist up to the GT.

So far based on the latest, KOTS and KOTN will end up to Armageddon. No detailed information regarding Dan. 11:44, 45 which refers to the KOTN actions and status prior to GT. But based on my personal Scriptural notes and study, KOTN global dominion and influence may end up to prior GT based on my Dan. 11:45b undestanding. Still, KOTN may encounter West/NATO alliance until prior to Armageddon (this alliance may fight with or without US support). 

Edited March 4 by Richie

[LeolaRootStew]

9 hours ago, Richie said:

 

I think sis. Sofia is referrring to Daniel 11:45b..and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

 

This verse is a bit mind boggling prior to GT.

 

From what I've read, they apply that to Armageddon:

 

The Watchtower, May 2020Who Is “the King of the North” Today?

 

• ¹⁵ This hard-hitting message and the final attack by God’s enemies may be the same events referred to at Daniel 11:44, 45. (Read.) There, Daniel says that “reports out of the east and out of the north” disturb the king of the north, who goes off in “a great rage.” The king of the north intends “to devote many to destruction.” The “many” referred to seem to be Jehovah’s people.c Daniel may here be describing the final all-out assault on God’s people.

  ¹⁶ This attack by the king of the north, acting along with the rest of the world’s governments, provokes the Almighty and brings on the war of Armageddon. (Rev. 16:14, 16) At that time, the king of the north, along with the rest of the nations that make up Gog of Magog, comes to his end, and there will be “no helper for him”.—Dan. 11:45.

[Sofia]

Some prophecies we understand only when In fullfillment 

We have to wait and see 

 

dan 11:45 -> 12:1 are in sequence

the prophecy only ends on verse 4

 

since 12:1 mentions Great Tribulation seems odd that 11:45 is fullfilled during Armageddon.

GT happens before Armageddon 

 

This is the reason some of us don’t understand and wait the fullfillment 

Beside GB says “it seems. It looks like.”

the hard hitting message won’t be proclaimed the way it was thought in 2020 when that W was published🤗

So let’s wait and see.

[kejedo]

4 minutes ago, Sofia said:

Some prophecies we understand only when In fullfillment 

We have to wait and see 

 

[Mike047]

Prophecies do prepare us and ready us for future events. Plus they give us reason to do all we can now, which is also in fulfillment of bible prophecy (Matt 24:14) and the command attached to it ( Matt 28:19,20)

[Richie]

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

From what I've read, they apply that to Armageddon:

 

The Watchtower, May 2020Who Is “the King of the North” Today?

 

• ¹⁵ This hard-hitting message and the final attack by God’s enemies may be the same events referred to at Daniel 11:44, 45. (Read.) There, Daniel says that “reports out of the east and out of the north” disturb the king of the north, who goes off in “a great rage.” The king of the north intends “to devote many to destruction.” The “many” referred to seem to be Jehovah’s people.c Daniel may here be describing the final all-out assault on God’s people.

  ¹⁶ This attack by the king of the north, acting along with the rest of the world’s governments, provokes the Almighty and brings on the war of Armageddon. (Rev. 16:14, 16) At that time, the king of the north, along with the rest of the nations that make up Gog of Magog, comes to his end, and there will be “no helper for him”.—Dan. 11:45.

From the reference above, Dan 11:45 has become a reference text for the end of KOTN along with the rest. The text doesn't really say the end of entire governments. Some how it is used to show the future end of KOTN. After May 2020 study article, Dan. 12:1 a verse after the 11:45 has been enlightened further sometime after 2021. Noticably, when chapter 11 further explained, last verses were skipped including 44, 45. Then 12:1 was explained and referred to the period of GT. Since then, some of us assume the future enlightenment of these verses versus the actual fulfillment. 

 

[Richie]

Mind boggling verses are good for personal studies and keep Jehovah's servants become alert and active as long as they are kept personal. Happy to say that some of them became partially true when fulfillment occurred. Not only one but I can say not less than 5. These are now held truth. 

[Sofia]

22 minutes ago, Mike047 said:

Prophecies do prepare us and ready us for future events. Plus they give us reason to do all we can now, which is also in fulfillment of bible prophecy (Matt 24:14) and the command attached to it ( Matt 28:19,20)

In deed! And March s broadcasting shows that precisely how it gives us hope 🙏🥰

No mater the sequence things will happen… or even overlap.

We know for sure ALL of them will be fullfilled in Jehovah’s proper time 🌺❤️

 

Edited March 4 by Sofia

[Richie]

20 minutes ago, Mike047 said:

Prophecies do prepare us and ready us for future events. Plus they give us reason to do all we can now, which is also in fulfillment of bible prophecy (Matt 24:14) and the command attached to it ( Matt 28:19,20)

I believe we are so zealous and fullfill the prophecy of preaching works🤗

[Sofia]

11 hours ago, Richie said:

 

I think sis. Sofia is referrring to Daniel 11:45b..and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

 

This verse is a bit mind boggling prior to GT.

I’m not against what s written in our publications but things are changing fast in the World. Daniel prophecy is in fullfillment.

Kotn coming all the way to his end doesn’t mean the end of Russia.

it means a change in leadership.

Will it happen before GT? Since it’s mentioned BEFORE Dan. 12:1?

we don’t know.

Daniel had prophetized a change in KOTN leadership before:

and KOTN has continued till now. All governments will be destroyed at Armageddon but not necessarily the very same rulers / presidents kings ministers that now exist. 

[trottigy]

3 hours ago, Sofia said:

Some prophecies we understand only when In fullfillment 

We have to wait and see 

 

dan 11:45 -> 12:1 are in sequence

the prophecy only ends on verse 4

 

since 12:1 mentions Great Tribulation seems odd that 11:45 is fullfilled during Armageddon.

GT happens before Armageddon 

 

This is the reason some of us don’t understand and wait the fullfillment 

Beside GB says “it seems. It looks like.”

the hard hitting message won’t be proclaimed the way it was thought in 2020 when that W was published🤗

So let’s wait and see.

 

Just a note: :44 &45 happening during the GT and 12:1 happening at the end of the GT @ Armageddon IS "in sequence".

 

In fact, our understanding is that those 2 verses fit with the attack of Gog of Magog and that is at the END of the GT, just before Armageddon. 

[Sofia]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

 

Just a note: :44 &45 happening during the GT and 12:1 happening at the end of the GT @ Armageddon IS "in sequence".

 

In fact, our understanding is that those 2 verses fit with the attack of Gog of Magog and that is at the END of the GT, just before Armageddon. 

Yes brother Jerry. Its the truth. That´s our current understanding. 

Dont forget that Dan. 12:1 was once understood as ARMAGEDON not GT.

 

w54 5/15 p. 300-301

Those typically executed judgments will be realistically and fully performed, earthwide, in Jehovah’s anciently foretold, and now impending, battle at Armageddon: Revelation 16:13-16. After that battle comes God’s permanent new world under Christ Jesus. (2 Pet. 3:13) That unprecedented battle (also anciently foretold in Jeremiah 25:32-38, in Daniel 12:1, and other prophecies Jesus quoted) a minority of men of free will now living upon earth shall survive, according to God’s promise.

*****

*** w76 8/1 p. 459 Insight on the News ***
Thus, just as God’s prophetic Word foretold, in our day this anti-God power has come to the fore, growing swiftly in scientific militarism. And, as Daniel foretold, he has kept “thrusting out his hand against the lands.” But the Bible shows that this “king of the north” will be brought to an end along with all other political powers at God’s war of Armageddon.—Dan. 11:36–12:1; Rev. 16:14-16.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1976563&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=9

 

*****

 

*** w87 7/1 p. 17 par. 7 Michael the Great Prince Stands Up ***
7 For example, according to the angel, Michael is to “stand up.” In the angel’s prophecy, “to stand” or “to stand up” (Hebrew, ‛a·madhʹ) can mean “to give support.” (Daniel 11:1) It can also variously imply “to prevail,” “to rebel,” “to oppose,” or “to withstand.” (Daniel 11:6, 11, 14, 15, 16a, 17, 25) But frequently, it refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Daniel 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21, 25) This is the meaning that fits best the angel’s words in Daniel 12:1. And it certainly supports the fact that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Armageddon. (Revelation 11:15; 16:14-16; 19:11-16) It also harmonizes with the other prophecies that point to the time when God’s Kingdom, under Jesus Christ, acts against this world’s nations.—Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14, 26, 27.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1987485&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=10

****

Therefore it made sense... verses 44,45 .... Gog´s attack, then verse 1 - Armagedon.

But in recent years that understanding was updated: Dan 12:1 happens in GT, not Armageddon.

*** es24 p. 103 October ***
The book of Daniel reveals the sequence of exciting events that will occur during the time of the end. For example, Daniel 12:1 reveals that Michael, who is Jesus Christ, is “standing in behalf of [God’s] people.” That part of the prophecy began to be fulfilled in 1914 when Jesus was appointed as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom. However, Daniel was also told that Jesus would “stand up” during “a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time.” This “time of distress” is the “great tribulation” mentioned at Matthew 24:21. Jesus stands up, or acts to defend God’s people, at the end of this time of distress, that is, at Armageddon. The book of Revelation refers to these ones as “a great crowd who come out of the great tribulation.”—Rev. 7:9, 14. w22.09 21 ¶4-5
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1102024209&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=49

 

I respect what´s written, but makes no sense to see Dan 11:44,45 being fullfilled AFTER GT starts.

I keep on the watch, paying attention to the news. Hoping that GT is around the corner. To see the salvation comming from Jehovah to all His loyal ones. To see His name santifyed finally!

 

[Paulo]

2 hours ago, Sofia said:

 

We can also propose a scenario where the leadership will not change, because it already changed, if we consider some of USSR and Russia Federation History.

 

19 Then he will turn his face back to the fortresses of his own land, and he will stumble and fall, and he will not be found.

The USSR would come to its end

 

20 “And there will stand up in his position one who causes an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom,

Someone would have the power to make an exactor/taskmaster/accountant inspect the USSR.

Too much expending caused the ruin of USSR, and lots of foreign experts were populating all branchs of the soviet government. Some government official where Americans with the US flags on their desk.

This ended gradually after Putin came to power.

 

but in a few days he will be broken, though not in anger nor in warfare.

This the perfect description of the unimaginable fast USSR collapse.

 

21 “And there will stand up in his position a despised one,

Putin was driving a cab to make ends meet. A former low rank officer before being chosen by Yeltsin

 

and they will not give him the majesty of the kingdom;

Russia was a shadow of USSR. Drastic economic reforms and deep recession, collapse of social services, full scale privatization and the rise of oligarchs

 

and he will come in during a time of security

The wind of change was blowing, end of cold war, peace and security speeches everywhere, new world order announcement

 

and take hold of the kingdom by means of smoothness.

After Yeltsin resignation, Putin,  then Prime Minister of Russia became Acting President. Slowly foreign agents and influence were removed from the Russia government. Oligarchs power started to be contained.

 

Next verses follow the modern History of Russia.

 

[Mike047]

Paulo, you seem to have more information than GB

[Sofia]

21 minutes ago, Paulo said:

 

We can also propose a scenario where the leadership will not change, because it already changed, if we consider some of USSR and Russia Federation History.

 

19 Then he will turn his face back to the fortresses of his own land, and he will stumble and fall, and he will not be found.

The USSR would come to its end

 

20 “And there will stand up in his position one who causes an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom,

Someone would have the power to make an exactor/taskmaster/accountant inspect the USSR.

Too much expending caused the ruin of USSR, and lots of foreign experts were populating all branchs of the soviet government. Some government official where Americans with the US flags on their desk.

This ended gradually after Putin came to power.

 

but in a few days he will be broken, though not in anger nor in warfare.

This the perfect description of the unimaginable fast USSR collapse.

 

21 “And there will stand up in his position a despised one,

Putin was driving a cab to make ends meet. A former low rank officer before being chosen by Yeltsin

 

and they will not give him the majesty of the kingdom;

Russia was a shadow of USSR. Drastic economic reforms and deep recession, collapse of social services, full scale privatization and the rise of oligarchs

 

and he will come in during a time of security

The wind of change was blowing, end of cold war, peace and security speeches everywhere, new world order announcement

 

and take hold of the kingdom by means of smoothness.

After Yeltsin resignation, Putin,  then Prime Minister of Russia became Acting President. Slowly foreign agents and influence were removed from the Russia government. Oligarchs power started to be contained.

 

Next verses follow the modern History of Russia.

 

This was fullfilled 2000 years ago…

*** dp chap. 14 p. 233 par. 6 The Two Kings Change Identities ***
6 “The splendid kingdom” of Augustus included “the land of the Decoration”—the Roman province of Judea. (Daniel 11:16) In 2 B.C.E., Augustus sent out “an exactor” by ordering a registration, or census, probably so that he could learn the number of the population for purposes of taxation and military conscription. Because of this decree, Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem for registration, resulting in Jesus’ birth at that foretold location. (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1-12) In August 14 C.E.—“in a few days,” or not long after decreeing the registration—Augustus died at the age of 76, neither “in anger” at an assassin’s hands nor “in warfare,” but as a result of illness. The king of the north had indeed changed identity! This king had by now become the Roman Empire in the person of its emperors.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1101999034&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=9

Edited March 4 by Sofia

[Paulo]

11 minutes ago, Mike047 said:

Paulo, you seem to have more information than GB

No I do not. I only proposed a scenario for the leadership not to change.

And some events did not happen yet when the GB gave the last full explanation on Daniel.

[Paulo]

6 minutes ago, Sofia said:

This was fullfilled 2000 years ago…

and yet it happened again after the events in verse 18b, that ended in February 15, 1989 with the pic bellow.

 

[vern]

trying to understand the Daniel drama has been a challenge.  Its officially changed many times.

 

Revelation kinda supersedes it and probably gives a bigger picture for the time of the end.

[trottigy]

2 hours ago, Sofia said:

Yes brother Jerry. Its the truth. That´s our current understanding. 

Dont forget that Dan. 12:1 was once understood as ARMAGEDON not GT.

 

 

**
The book of Daniel reveals the sequence of exciting events that will occur during the time of the end. For example, Daniel 12:1 reveals that Michael, who is Jesus Christ, is “standing in behalf of [God’s] people.” That part of the prophecy began to be fulfilled in 1914 when Jesus was appointed as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom. However, Daniel was also told that Jesus would “stand up” during “a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time.” This “time of distress” is the “great tribulation” mentioned at Matthew 24:21. Jesus stands up, or acts to defend God’s people, at the end of this time of distress, that is, at Armageddon. The book of Revelation refers to these ones as “a great crowd who come out of the great tribulation.”—Rev. 7:9, 14. w22.09 21 ¶4-5
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1102024209&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=49

 

I respect what´s written, but makes no sense to see Dan 11:44,45 being fullfilled AFTER GT starts.

I keep on the watch, paying attention to the news. Hoping that GT is around the corner. To see the salvation comming from Jehovah to all His loyal ones. To see His name santifyed finally!

 

 

Note: Our thinking on 12:1 did NOT change. We are still pointing to it as @ Armageddon / the "end" of the GT. See your quote. It is important to remember that Armageddon is the END of the "time of distress" or the "Great Tribulation" (GT).

 

So 11:44 & 45 show events during and 12: 1-3 flow right from that time to the "end" of the GT / Armageddon and on into the resurrection AFTER the GT/ Armageddon. 

 

What we updated is 12:2 & 3 (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2022568#h=12) Now, we see that they too flow in time from 11:44&45 (during the GT), to 12:1 (the end/ Armageddon) to 12:2-3 (AFTER the GT).

 

All this makes more sense than suddenly jumping back in time for 12:2 & 3 - as we previously taught.

 

So all of this flows in time from one to the other - rather than jumping. It really is smooth and logical. I hope this helps.

 

(EDIT: Who knows - maybe we will point to all the other things written in Daniel 12 to AFTER the GT too.)

Edited March 4 by trottigy

[Richie]

Everyone is pointing to the same direction although we understand some verses and publications in different ways. That's normal that even BOE have different understanding from the written instructions from Branch🤣. The most important is UNiTY and LOVE. 

 

We are trying to assimilate things against current world events, that the safest way to make conclusion on our notes (less corrections in later times). 

 

One thing for sure, Jehovah will allow us to see the fulfillment in the near future and some of our notes will become a partial reality or may fully discarded🤣. 

 

FDS is the final channel to feed Jehovah's organization. For us, our study notes have made us firmed and strong even most of them are meant for correction in the future or maybe we can get some truth that's a blessing from Jehovah😂🤗. 

Edited March 5 by Richie

[Richie]

9 hours ago, Sofia said:

I’m not against what s written in our publications but things are changing fast in the World. Daniel prophecy is in fullfillment.

Kotn coming all the way to his end doesn’t mean the end of Russia.

it means a change in leadership.

Will it happen before GT? Since it’s mentioned BEFORE Dan. 12:1?

we don’t know.

Daniel had prophetized a change in KOTN leadership before:

and KOTN has continued till now. All governments will be destroyed at Armageddon but not necessarily the very same rulers / presidents kings ministers that now exist. 

I have the same understanding from these verses and from the latest publication. Dan. 12:1 is the period of GT. From my personal note on Dan 11:44, 45, the current world events align to these descriptions. Unfortunately, we cannot share it until FDS enlightens them further. I remembered last time we talked about new lights before the AM broadcast, the new lights for judgement. Unfortunately I had note many years prior that everybody will be judge prior to Armageddon not at the start of GT. I cannot forget this because I was corrected by jw sister regarding the former belief. Fortunately, I am happy the correction was made and the belief has been adjusted according to better understanding. That's why I believe that some of us have a piece of truths similar to what bro. Russell said. Later on these truths make us smile because Jehovah blesses us to understand some. 

[Ysaias]

14 hours ago, trottigy said:

(EDIT: Who knows - maybe we will point to all the other things written in Daniel 12 to AFTER the GT too.)

 

It may be, brother Jerry.

 

Like the number of days in 12:11, 12. To this date it's understood that all are in the past.

- 1,290 days: Jan 1919 to Sep 1922

- 1,335 days: Sep 1922 to May 1926

 

It may not be the case anymore, but we'll clearly understand the math after A-Day, maybe with a Kingdom Update (formerly, GB Update). And then, we all will say "Aha! That makes sense. So easy. Why didn't I notice?"