Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[truce]

31 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

I agree. A long while back we’ve had discussions here that a person had to be baptized before the GT to be saved...  However, the requirement for baptism applies to those who can make an informed dedication.

 

Evidently the GC in Rev 7 is portraying those who have a relationship with God and are baptized....”they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb”. These have a great advantage and opportunity for survival.

 

However this in itself does not necessarily rule out others surviving the GT. Like Baptism does not guarantee survival. Likewise, not being baptized because of circumstances beyond our control will not automatically mean our destruction would it?  Jehovah does not desire any to be destroyed.

 

Many may not be at that point of dedication before armageddon starts....however they may understand enough to join us during that time. But a dedication requires a relationship with God. We don[’t just want people going thru the motions. 

 

Just my opinion but I can’t see someone starting to study, then they are told;  "if you want to survive you better make a dedication right now and get baptized.”   Should dedication be pressured, or made in a desperate attempt to get saved?  

 

I think of the example of the Egyptians voluntarily leaving with the Israelites.....later they agreed to the terms of the Law covenant. 

 

Jehovah is a reasonable, and merciful God.  

Why, yes!

[Dages]

40 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

I think of the example of the Egyptians voluntarily leaving with the Israelites.....later they agreed to the terms of the Law covenant. 

Interesting comparison

[Tia]

3 hours ago, Richie said:

LGBTQ+ has already gained influence and can find refuge through UN Human Rights laws which are favored to them. Conservative religions can act as opposition to UN but with international pressures brought by UN members voted to LGBTQ+. OR change religions doctrine accustomed to LGBTQ+ belief. 

 

I see LGBTQ+ can use UN International Human Rights laws against to the strictest religions on earth (Islam). Now, huge number of UN members are gradually changing their stance to accept LGBTQ+ doctrine and sending pressures to other members to do the same. 

 

From this point of view, there will be war with UN/Governments and Conservative Religions because of gender discrimination which UN/Governments believe is against International Human Rights law. 

Huh!  Where did this come from - Of course this is quite evident everywhere!!!

 

I am referring to the Jehovah Organization and Brother Morris Talk - I think it is on the Broadcast 2016 

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

I think of the example of the Egyptians voluntarily leaving with the Israelites.....later they agreed to the terms of the Law covenant. 

That's because the Israelites and the Egyptians with them didn't receive the Law covenant until after they had left Egypt. Everyone received it at the same time, so I don't understand your point.

[Amygdala]

With the so-called time of peace on the earth, and BtG is destroyed, I wonder if some even in the Truth might get misled into thinking well the world is not such a bad place now without all those things. Hopefully not, but it makes you wonder why some drop out of the race, particularly at this late stage of the game. Satan is good at making some believe in his lies.

Edited May 9 by Amygdala

[Doug]

23 hours ago, Tortuga said:

It's just my opinion but if the cry of P&S is demon inspired, then it will be what they want, not what mankind wants, 

Since the cry of P&S may be demon inspired and possibly have demonic miracles, it seems more reasonable that

it will be all about them and their desires. 

 

The GB has explained the cry of P&S will be the signal that Jehovah's Day is about to begin.

 

But the cry of P&S is demon inspired.  Obviously, Jehovah isn't waiting on that demon inspired lie in order to get the GT started.

 

SO, it seems apparent that Satan and his agents will have enough information / evidence to be able to anticipate that Jehovah is about to destroy BtG,  and so they will generate this false flag of P&S as a grand distraction to what's coming.

 

It really will be all about them.  Their last gasp of deception leading billions to a false hope , a misdirected hope, and death.

 

Satan and his agents are is a state of spiritual darkness, but they also have observed humans for over 6,000 years and probably have a sense of when Jehovah will step in before it's too late.  And they time their P&S accordingly, to cause the greatest damage possible.

[Dhanyel]

7 minutes ago, Amygdala said:

With the so-called time of peace on the earth, and BtG is destroyed, I wonder if some even in the Truth might get misled into thinking well the world is not such a bad place now without all those things. Hopefully not, but it makes you wonder why some drop out of the race, particularly at this late stage of the game. Satan is good at making some believe in his lies.

The love of money, materialism can make someone lose their way, unfortunately some are sleeping.

[Tortuga]

28 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

The GB has explained the cry of P&S will be the signal that Jehovah's Day is about to begin.

 

But the cry of P&S is demon inspired.  Obviously, Jehovah isn't waiting on that demon inspired lie in order to get the GT started.

 

SO, it seems apparent that Satan and his agents will have enough information / evidence to be able to anticipate that Jehovah is about to destroy BtG,  and so they will generate this false flag of P&S as a grand distraction to what's coming.

 

It really will be all about them.  Their last gasp of deception leading billions to a false hope , a misdirected hope, and death.

 

Satan and his agents are is a state of spiritual darkness, but they also have observed humans for over 6,000 years and probably have a sense of when Jehovah will step in before it's too late.  And they time their P&S accordingly, to cause the greatest damage possible.

I understand your point, but they know what the bible says so why would they intentionally do that?

[Tortuga]

42 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

The GB has explained the cry of P&S will be the signal that Jehovah's Day is about to begin.

 

But the cry of P&S is demon inspired.  Obviously, Jehovah isn't waiting on that demon inspired lie in order to get the GT started.

 

SO, it seems apparent that Satan and his agents will have enough information / evidence to be able to anticipate that Jehovah is about to destroy BtG,  and so they will generate this false flag of P&S as a grand distraction to what's coming.

 

It really will be all about them.  Their last gasp of deception leading billions to a false hope , a misdirected hope, and death.

 

Satan and his agents are is a state of spiritual darkness, but they also have observed humans for over 6,000 years and probably have a sense of when Jehovah will step in before it's too late.  And they time their P&S accordingly, to cause the greatest damage possible.

My original point was that it will be hard for us to predict what will lead to the declaration of P&S because it comes from Satan. We are looking at the things from a human viewpoint that may be leading indicators to a declaration, but we have a huge unknown factor that we need to remember, the cry of P&S is inspired by demons and will no doubt be from their desires, not our expectations. So, it seems a waste of time for us to be looking at specific world events to determine how close we may be to the cry of P&S, because we don't know exactly what Satan's reasons are for inspiring it to happen. 

Edited May 9 by Tortuga

[Pjdriver]

55 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

That's because the Israelites and the Egyptians with them didn't receive the Law covenant until after they had left Egypt. Everyone received it at the same time, so I don't understand your point.

 

Yes the Law didn’t come until shortly after they left Egypt. 

My point was that for non-worshipers of Jehovah, they decided last minute  to join or go with what appeared to them to be Gods People.....there was no "formal commitment" to make.

 

However the circumstances allowed for them to make a formal commitment later. Which they had to do.  Point being....the formal commitment does not always have to come first. It just depends on the circumstances. It doesn’t mean people will fool Jehovah’s judgement.  There may not be enough time for all who join us after the GT starts, to make a dedication and get baptized. 

 

Later those non-worshipers were definitely required to make a commitment.  Just pointing out that the order of things is not always one way in that regard. It does not have to be. Jehovah can sort it out as he goes......we have 1000 years.  

 

The scriptures gives us a general rule: If you learn a reasonable amount about Jehovah you are obligated to dedicate your life to him and get baptised. Only Jehovah can determine at what point that person should have responded and got baptized.

 

Another example similar, is Cornelius, and his whole household who were anointed with HS for heavenly life as Kings and Preist...... before being baptized.  Havent’ heard of it since, but  it was to show they had God’s approval so Peter would allow them to be baptized. Point being.... Jehovah is not obligated to a certain order in that regard. 

 

 

 

 

[Pjdriver]

32 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

My original point was that it will be hard for us to predict what will lead to the declaration of P&S because it comes from Satan.

I was thinking: was Paul referring to the sudden destruction of the nations or BTG?

Just my musings but it seems if there is a specific declaration of peace, it would come after BTG is no more and just prior to the final end (armageddon). I;m not sure of any reason it has to come before that. Maybe someone knows. Maybe that is the calm before storm....  the final blow. 

[Dhanyel]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

I was thinking: was Paul referring to the sudden destruction of the nations or BTG?

Just my musings but it seems if there is a specific declaration of peace, it would come after BTG is no more and just prior to the final end (armageddon). I;m not sure of any reason it has to come before that. Maybe someone knows. Maybe that is the calm before storm....  the final blow. 

How will peace and security come after the destruction of Babylon with the situation the world will experience, civil conflicts, people expecting the things that will come upon the earth? How will it come afterward if peace and security are a sign that the great tribulation is about to begin? As the Bible itself says, when they are saying "peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them, how can it be before?

[Dhanyel]

2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

My original point was that it will be hard for us to predict what will lead to the declaration of P&S because it comes from Satan. We are looking at the things from a human viewpoint that may be leading indicators to a declaration, but we have a huge unknown factor that we need to remember, the cry of P&S is inspired by demons and will no doubt be from their desires, not our expectations. So, it seems a waste of time for us to be looking at specific world events to determine how close we may be to the cry of P&S, because we don't know exactly what Satan's reasons are for inspiring it to happen. 

But the devil will make it something convincing, a way that human beings understand and believe, so it is necessary to maintain vigilance, and what is happening on the world stage indicates that this prophecy is about to happen. 

[coolbrz731]

2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I understand your point, but they know what the bible says so why would they intentionally do that?

We're talking about spirits who thought it was a good idea to try to get their "creator"(Jesus) to worship them!  That's a whole 'nother level of crazy and lack of reasoning.  I can see them trying to pull something like that and thinking it will work.  

[Tortuga]

15 minutes ago, Dhanyel said:

But the devil will make it something convincing, a way that human beings understand and believe, so it is necessary to maintain vigilance, and what is happening on the world stage indicates that this prophecy is about to happen. 

Absolutely, but some people thought that a cure for Covid would trigger a cry of P&S, but if the declaration of P&S is from the demons, why would a cure for a pandemic cause them to declare the world has achieved P&S? why would they care?

 

Some think that a ceasefire in the Mid-East would be a start of P&S, but if the demons are inspiring the declaration of P&S, why would they be interested in a ceasefire? How does that satisfy their depraved desires?

 

We wanted a cure to the pandemic, and we want a ceasefire in the Mid-East, we think those things will be a beginning to P&S, but we have to remember that the declaration of P&S is inspired by demons, so it will be about what they want, not what we want.

 

We are to keep on the watch and understand that world events identify this as the Last Days and Bible prophecies are being fulfilled, but we can't use specific world events to tell us when there will be a declaration of P&S. That declaration is not based on world events.

[Doug]

20 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

 it will be about what they want, not what we want.

 That declaration is not based on world events.

 

The only connection between P&S and current events may be the convincing aspect of P&S.

 

In other words, the world population isn't likely to buy-in to the P&S if the reason for it is that aliens have found us and they want to help us fix things.  Crazy talk, not gonna win the crowd with that.

 

P&S will be convincing, to the point that Christians need to be on guard not to believe it themselves.

So, there needs to be a plausible, convincing reason for the world at large to buy-in.

 

Why does Satan and the demons even care?  Why bother?   To cause harm.  To distract from what JW's are preaching.

[Jakubs_pl]

Hi.  I come from Poland.  I write using Google translator.  I would like to share my thoughts regarding peace and security.  I have a theory that was suggested to me by a Polish Think Tank because it used the exact words "peace and security".  Generally informed people dealing with geopolitics and strategy in Poland and Eastern Europe believe that America overestimates its current capabilities.  That the Americans will withdraw from Europe, towards the Pacific.  Countries such as Germany and France will want to take advantage of the weakening US.  And in the name of Peace and security, when the USA leaves Europe (because it no longer has the ability to be everywhere), there will be a great new opening (after the truce or Russia's victory over Ukraine) towards Russia/China.  Personally, it makes sense to me.  The US is fading into the shadows, but European leaders say "it's nothing, we will reach an agreement with Russia when there are no more Americans in Europe. There will be peace and security."

[coolbrz731]

37 minutes ago, Jakubs_pl said:

Hi.  I come from Poland.  I write using Google translator.  I would like to share my thoughts regarding peace and security.  I have a theory that was suggested to me by a Polish Think Tank because it used the exact words "peace and security".  Generally informed people dealing with geopolitics and strategy in Poland and Eastern Europe believe that America overestimates its current capabilities.  That the Americans will withdraw from Europe, towards the Pacific.  Countries such as Germany and France will want to take advantage of the weakening US.  And in the name of Peace and security, when the USA leaves Europe (because it no longer has the ability to be everywhere), there will be a great new opening (after the truce or Russia's victory over Ukraine) towards Russia/China.  Personally, it makes sense to me.  The US is fading into the shadows, but European leaders say "it's nothing, we will reach an agreement with Russia when there are no more Americans in Europe. There will be peace and security."

That would affect America and Europe, but what about Asia, which is have a whole different set of problems?  Africa and South America also kind of don't care how many Americans are in Europe.  Whatever the proclamation of peace and security is, it will not just affect a couple of continents.   It will affect the whole world and all its disparate problems.  That's the only way mankind will truly buy into it so that it fulfills bible prophecy.

[Tortuga]

41 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

The only connection between P&S and current events may be the convincing aspect of P&S.

 

In other words, the world population isn't likely to buy-in to the P&S if the reason for it is that aliens have found us and they want to help us fix things.  Crazy talk, not gonna win the crowd with that.

 

P&S will be convincing, to the point that Christians need to be on guard not to believe it themselves.

So, there needs to be a plausible, convincing reason for the world at large to buy-in.

 

Why does Satan and the demons even care?  Why bother?   To cause harm.  To distract from what JW's are preaching.

So true. It seems reasonable that whatever they do will be something in direct opposition to Jehovah. I can imagine how Satan and the demons would love to convince the world that it doesn't need God's Kingdom. 

[Pjdriver]

2 hours ago, Dhanyel said:

How will peace and security come after the destruction of Babylon with the situation the world will experience, civil conflicts, people expecting the things that will come upon the earth? How will it come afterward if peace and security are a sign that the great tribulation is about to begin? As the Bible itself says, when they are saying "peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them, how can it be before?

 

Daniel, these are just my musings.......this is not critical to life values base in scripture or my relationship with Jehovah. 

 

When the Romans initially surrounded Jerusalem in 66 C.E. then retreated and didn’t come back for almost 4 years.....that was an interim of “peace"....so they thought.  And some Christian were tempted to stay. 

 

Just sayin’ the order of the P&S and destruction doesn’t seem to be plainly written.

 

One question I wondered about was; if peace is declared before BTG goes down....what is the motive for putting her down.... if there is already peace.

 

So, if the nations see BTG as a deterrent to peace, and they shut her down....couldn’t this lead to a declaration of peace and perhaps a brief interim of Peace before armageddon?

 

Since peace is a major reason why they shut her down....they would be able to use Peace and security to justify why the  take down of organized religion/ BTG.   Then they (Gog) come after us.....And Bang!  Armageddon, "Sudden destruction" with complete chaos in the streets. and "fearful signs in heaven” etc....

 

So, Was Paul talking about  "sudden destruction" of religion or the destruction of the whole system. The later part (armageddon) seems to makes just as much sense.   

 

Why is that not feasible?  Is there some way to show it could not be that way?  This is just my musings, I don’t claim to “Know” ....but it seems logical. Nevertheless, either way I’ll be happy. I don’t try to teach that to the public. I stick with the slave interpretation on that. 

 

 

Anyway, The feet (Anglo-American) made of iron and partly of clay is now experiencing a rebellion of sorts....with violent protesters....radicalizing the next generation.  The current war and subsequent protests originate in religion (Jew/Muslim/Christian). 

 

I would think at some point these protest have  to stop before the nations can claim there's peace. When got tries to attack God’s people...He responds suddenly, like "touching the pupil of his eye."

Then comes armageddon suddenly with the "fearful sights” .etc....and chaos.... until Jesus hits them on the head with his  iron Rod,  and ends it once and for all.   Just sayin'

 

 

Edited May 9 by Pjdriver

[LeolaRootStew]

5 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I understand your point, but they know what the bible says so why would they intentionally do that?

The demons also knew what the Bible said about Messianic prophecies, yet they still tried to kill him and tempt him into leaving Jehovah. 

 

Is it possible that Satan will use the cry of peace and security in an attempt to stop the destruction of false religion and, just like his prior attempts to interfere, Jehovah will intervene with the "one thought" in order for His will to take place?

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Daniel, these are just my musings.......this is not critical to life values base in scripture or my relationship with Jehovah. 

 

When the Romans initially surrounded Jerusalem in 66 C.E. then retreated and didn’t come back for almost 4 years.....that was an interim of “peace"....so they thought.  And some Christian were tempted to stay. 

 

Just sayin’ the order of the P&S and destruction doesn’t seem to be plainly written.

 

One question I wondered about was; if peace is declared before BTG goes down....what is the motive for putting her down.... if there is already peace.

 

So, if the nations see BTG as a deterrent to peace, and they shut her down....couldn’t this lead to a declaration of peace and perhaps a brief interim of Peace before armageddon?

 

Since peace is a major reason why they shut her down....they would be able to use Peace and security to justify why the  take down of organized religion/ BTG.   Then they (Gog) come after us.....And Bang!  Armageddon, "Sudden destruction" with complete chaos in the streets. and "fearful signs in heaven” etc....

 

So, Was Paul talking about  "sudden destruction" of religion or the destruction of the whole system. The later part (armageddon) seems to makes just as much sense.   

 

Why is that not feasible?  Is there some way to show it could not be that way?  This is just my musings, I don’t claim to “Know” ....but it seems logical. Nevertheless, either way I’ll be happy. I don’t try to teach that to the public. I stick with the slave interpretation on that. 

 

 

Anyway, The feet (Anglo-American) made of iron and partly of clay is now experiencing a rebellion of sorts....with violent protesters....radicalizing the next generation.  The current war and subsequent protests originate in religion (Jew/Muslim/Christian). 

 

I would think at some point these protest have  to stop before the nations can claim there's peace. When got tries to attack God’s people...He responds suddenly, like "touching the pupil of his eye."

Then comes armageddon suddenly with the "fearful sights” .etc....and chaos.... until Jesus hits them on the head with his  iron Rod,  and ends it once and for all.   Just sayin'

 

 

To add to your musings.

The Bible does not “spell out exact reason” for saying of PS. It only links both the PS and immediate destruction of BTG. Therefore prophecy could surprise us all how it will be eventually fulfilled. There are many ways how things could play out … and slide us immediately into GT, where at that point we could say … wow! I did not expect that! But here we are. 
 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 minute ago, New World Explorer said:

To add to your musings.

The Bible does not “spell out exact reason” for saying of PS. It only links both the PS and immediate destruction of BTG. Therefore prophecy could surprise us all how it will be eventually fulfilled. There are many ways how things could play out … and slide us immediately into GT, where at that point we could say … wow! I did not expect that! But here we are. 
 

 @Pjdriver

To add even further, I suppose it's even possible that we will get an update on the great tribulation after it has begun because it unfolded in a way we didn't fully expect.

[Tortuga]

47 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

The demons also knew what the Bible said about Messianic prophecies, yet they still tried to kill him and tempt him into leaving Jehovah. 

 

Is it possible that Satan will use the cry of peace and security in an attempt to stop the destruction of false religion and, just like his prior attempts to interfere, Jehovah will intervene with the "one thought" in order for His will to take place?

True. It is reasonable that Satan's intent is to prevent Jehovah from doing what he has promised to do. For example, if Satan was able to convince the world that it didn't need God's Kingdom, that there was another way to solve all of mankind's problems, it would be consistent with his challenge to Jehovah's sovereignty. 

 

As Doug mentioned earlier, Satan's claim would have to be plausible and related to current world events for people to accept it. I think it would be interesting if the United Nations organization was suddenly restructured into a bigger and stronger peace keeping organization. The world would believe the New United Nations will solve every issue and bring peace and security, especially if there are demonic miracles that prove its power. Then when religion tries to give that organization a moral compass, it turns on religion for the greater good of mankind. 

 

There, I figured it out. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it..

Edited May 9 by Tortuga

[trottigy]

3 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

True. It is reasonable that Satan's intent is to prevent Jehovah from doing what he has promised to do. For example, if Satan was able to convince the world that it didn't need God's Kingdom, that there was another way to solve all of mankind's problems, it would be consistent with his challenge to Jehovah's sovereignty. 

 

As Doug mentioned earlier, Satan's claim would have to be plausible and related to current world events for people to accept it. I think it would be interesting if the United Nations organization was suddenly restructured into a bigger and stronger peace keeping organization. The world would believe the New United Nations will solve every issue and bring peace and security, especially if there are demonic miracles that prove its power. Then when religion tries to give that organization a moral compass, it turns on religion for the greater good of mankind. 

 

Which is why I always thought it would be related to some major scientific discovery, like: free energy or major medical advance - maybe even something that dramatically increases life span or something.

 

Anyway, it will be interesting - that's for sure!