Gunman opens fire in German city of Hamburg - Brothers and Sisters Wounded

[Bro_BT]

45 minutes ago, Sharkfin182 said:

Germans are actually now most enraged about the “lax gun laws” that allowed a man with known mental problems to have a gun, and not have it confiscated 

 

The Wikipedia article indicates the authorities were warned about his anger / hate. They interviewed him and subsequently allowed him keep his gun permit.

 

[Parale]

GERMANY: Front page of Augsburger Allgemeine, 11 March 2023 (newspaper based in Augsburg, Bavaria, which covers town of Kempten)

 

The headline translates as:

 

Gunman comes from the Allgäu

A 35-year-old man killed seven people and himself in a Jehovah's Witnesses building in Hamburg. The man grew up in Kempten. His motive is so far unclear. What a relative says about the assassin.

 

 

 

 

 

GERMANY: Front page of Neueste Nachrichten, 11 March 2023

 

The headline translates as:

 

Hints before Shooting

Marksman left the Jehovah's Witnesses church in a quarrel

 

[Bro_BT]

On 3/11/2023 at 2:22 AM, Jay D said:

Please pray for our dear hurt brothers and sisters. ❤️

 

I know it's hard to think of at a time like this, but we should also be showing love to our enemies, and praying for them also. 

 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/love-your-enemies-meaning/

 

Matthew 5

43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

Acts 7

59 As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, he fell asleep in death.

[Just another lowly sheep]

17 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

 

The Wikipedia article indicates the authorities were warned about his anger / hate. They interviewed him and subsequently allowed him keep his gun permit.

 

Yes, as I said, people are enraged that the LAWS allowed him to keep his gun and provided no LEGAL means for those visiting police to confiscate his gun. But there is much internal DEBATE in the government about all that, and people want change.

 

It all just further demonstrates the failure of human rulership, they’ve allowed guns to proliferate, and have no authority to control their use. Those of us living in U.S. cities have grown accustomed to DAILY shootings.

 

Just one of millions of mankind’s failures 

[Bro_BT]

1 minute ago, Sharkfin182 said:

It all just further demonstrates the failure of human rulership, they’ve allowed guns to proliferate, and have no authority to control their use. Those of us living in U.S. cities have grown accustomed to DAILY shootings.

 

Just one of millions of mankind’s failures 

 

I'm not so sure that guns are the real problem. People have been killing since Cain and Abel. 

 

Death by government (democide) is historically a much bigger killer with 262,000,000 estimated deaths from 1900 to 1999 (source: https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM). 

 

[Old]

17 minutes ago, Sharkfin182 said:

 

 

It all just further demonstrates the failure of human rulership, they’ve allowed guns to proliferate, and have no authority to control their use. ...

 

 

Germany has strict gun laws, but it made little difference in this case.

[Parale]

GERMANY: Front page of Osnabrücker Zeitung, 11 March 2023

 

The headline translates as:

 

Hamburg mourns after the Shooting

Among the eight victims in the Jehovah's Witnesses building is an unborn baby / US government also expresses condolences

 

 

Statement from the US Department of State:

 

 

 

 

GERMANY: Front page of Südkurier, 11 March 2023

 

The headline translates as:

 

Horror at the bloody deed in Hamburg

Shooting spree at Jehovah's Witnesses congregation building

Kills seven people and himself

Perpetrator comes from Memmingen in the Allgau

 

[carlos]

31 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

I know it's hard to think of at a time like this, but we should also be showing love to our enemies, and praying for them also. 

 

Bryce, this is a good point to keep in mind. We pray for our enemies when they are ignorant people who don't know they are actually attacking Jehovah's people.

 

But we do not pray for apostates or others who intentionally and with full knowledge oppose Jehovah's people. Jesus prayed for the soldiers who nailed him to the stake, but not for the Pharisees or for Satan and his demons.

 

As the Insight book under HATE puts it:

 

Quote

*** it-1 p. 1043 Hate ***
In true loyalty to Jehovah, his servants hate what and whom he hates. (2Ch 19:2) “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” (Ps 139:21, 22) But this hate does not seek to inflict injury on others and is not synonymous with spite or malice. Rather, it finds expression in its utter abhorrence of what is wicked, avoiding what is bad and those intensely hating Jehovah. (Ro 12:9, 17, 19) Christians rightly hate those who are confirmed enemies of God, such as the Devil and his demons, as well as men who have deliberately and knowingly taken their stand against Jehovah.

 

 

 

[Just another lowly sheep]

23 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

 

I'm not so sure that guns are the real problem. People have been killing since Cain and Abel. 

 

Death by government (democide) is historically a much bigger killer with 262,000,000 estimated deaths from 1900 to 1999 (source: https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM). 

 

As I said, just one of MILLIONS of mankind’s failures. They’ve painted themselves into a corner. A growing population fighting for land & food & resources, out-of-control crime & violence, total devastation of the environment, etc. 

 

Just another facet of man’s unsustainable system. Jehovah all-along knew the exact day & hour to rescue mankind right before the absolute BRINK of collapse, and that day is getting closer!

[carlos]

This morning several people approached us at the carts to express their condolences for the Hamburg massacre. Some of them accepted a publication or a Memorial invitation.

 

This is of course a terrible and tragic event, but Jehovah can even make some good come from it.

[Jay D]

54 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

 

I know it's hard to think of at a time like this, but we should also be showing love to our enemies, and praying for them also. 

 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/love-your-enemies-meaning/

 

Matthew 5

43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

Acts 7

59 As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, he fell asleep in death.

 

My dear brother, these words are so true, but our enemies aren't in the picture here. These thoughts you are making are ever so irrelevant to this topic. An enemy has attacked our dear friends and killed himself, so we can't pray for him, and the authorities are hardly our "enemies" in this instance as they have come to the aid of our brothers, what swift, courageous and effective action the police took. 

The ones we must primarily pray for now are our dear brothers and sisters, showing our full support to them. 

[Parale]

GERMAN: Front page of Schwarzwälder Bote, 11 March 2023

 

The headline translates as:

 

Not only Hamburg in shock

 

 

 

 

 

GERMANY: Front page of Schwäbische Zeitung, 11 March 2023 (newspaper covers Baden-Württemberg which borders Memminger)

 

The headline translates as:

 

Hamburg Perpetrator comes from Allgäu

Born in Memminger, he shoots seven people in the community of Jehovah's Witnesses
 

[Bro_BT]

16 minutes ago, carlos said:

But we do not pray for apostates or others who intentionally and with full knowledge oppose Jehovah's people. Jesus prayed for the soldiers who nailed him to the stake, but not for the Pharisees or for Satan and his demons.

 

That's a good point.

 

I don't have enough knowledge about the perpetrator to know what his motivation or heart condition was. 

[Parale]

Fury in Germany as Hamburg shooting brings ‘lax’ gun laws into focus

 

11 March 2023, The Observer, UK

 

Gun laws in Germany, where weapon ownership is among the highest in Europe, could be further tightened after last week’s mass shooting in which seven people, including an unborn child, were killed in a Jehovah’s Witness hall in Hamburg.

 

Hamburg authorities have highlighted the speed of the police response: a specialist unit arrived within minutes of the first bullets being fired by 35-year-old Philipp Fusz. Since 2021, the city has been piloting a specialist unit modelled on a taskforce formed in Vienna after four people died in a shooting there in November 2020.

 

The officers almost certainly saved many lives by arriving within four minutes of the emergency calls and blasting their way into the church near Hamburg airport as Fusz, a freelance business consultant who left the local Jehovah’s Witness chapter 18 months ago, was attempting to systematically murder the 36 people inside with bursts of fire from his semi-automatic Heckler & Koch P30.

 

Fusz – who had fallen out with fellow members over a book he had written and self-published and compared to the Bible – was chased to the first storey of the hall, where he died after shooting himself in the chest.

 

In a country whose fragmented political system is often a cause for complaint, a reckoning is coming over Hamburg’s weapons control authority’s response to an anonymous letter sent two months ago about Fusz’s mental health.

 

On 7 February, officers visited Fusz at his flat in west Hamburg but gave him just a verbal warning after finding a loose bullet on top of the safe in which his gun and ammunition were supposed to be stored. The city’s health services seem to have had no involvement in the unannounced visit, despite the red flags of his book and the anonymous letter, which had suggested that Fusz was suffering from a psychological disorder but refused to seek treatment.

 

A member of Hamburg’s Hanseatic Gun Club, Fusz had held a weapons licence since December last year, and the awarding of this permit is a focus of attention as the people of Hamburg prepare to bury their dead.

 

Though Germany has some of the strictest gun laws in Europe, it has a high per capita ratio of firearms. Around a million people legally own a total of more than 5 million guns. Most of them are sport shooters, hunters or foresters, but while violence remains rare, an average of 155 people are killed by gunfire every year. The past two decades have seen a gradual tightening of controls.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/11/fury-in-germany-as-hamburg-shooting-brings-lax-gun-laws-into-focus

Edited March 12, 2023 by Parale

[Jay D]

48 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

 

I'm not so sure that guns are the real problem. People have been killing since Cain and Abel. 

 

Death by government (democide) is historically a much bigger killer with 262,000,000 estimated deaths from 1900 to 1999 (source: https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM). 

 

 

It would be best to err on the side of caution, lest this thread becomes a political debate about gun laws. We must be politically neutral in imitation of Christ Jesus. 

 

Read Matthew 26:52, replace the word sword with gun and the same principle applies. It is an instrument with the intention of killing, Jehovah knows this and wants us to understand how sacred life is and we would want to make sure we have the correct view of weapons, perhaps this would be a beneficial study project to consider on our Watchtower online Library. 😊

 

[carlos]

12 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

That's a good point.

 

I don't have enough knowledge about the perpetrator to know what his motivation or heart condition was. 

 

I agree, we cannot judge that man. Besides, it seems he suffered some mental condition.

 

Since there is no point in praying for a dead person, I thought your comment referred to apostates who are taking advantage of this sad event to spread misinformation, as mentioned in several posts in this topic.

 

My only feeling for those enemies who intentionally spread lies about Jehovah's people is the same as Paul's in Galatians 5:12: "I wish the men who are trying to unsettle you would emasculate themselves."

 

[New World Explorer]

2 hours ago, Michał said:

So, its either a peak of arrogance or a symptom of schizophrenia… 

Could be both, or even narcissistic personality in play.

Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration. Others often describe people with NPD as cocky, manipulative, selfish, patronizing, and demanding. This way of thinking and behaving surfaces in every area of the narcissist's life: from work and friendships to family and love relationships.

People with narcissistic personality disorder are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it's causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. What's more, they are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticisms, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as personal attacks. https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm

[Bro_BT]

12 minutes ago, carlos said:

Since there is no point in praying for a dead person, I thought your comment referred to apostates who are taking advantage of this sad event to spread misinformation, as mentioned in several posts in this topic.

 

I haven't read those posts. But if they are truly apostates in the sense of having renounced or abandoned their faith, then no, we shouldn't pray for them.

 

If on the other hand they are opposers using this sad event to persecute us, then we should pray for them.

[Bro_BT]

45 minutes ago, Jay D said:

My dear brother, these words are so true, but our enemies aren't in the picture here. These thoughts you are making are ever so irrelevant to this topic.

 

Unfortunately there are may opposers who will use this event persecute us further. It's good to remember that the Apostle Paul was once opposed.  

 

I've already encountered an opposer (non believer) who has joked about this event to me in a mocking way. 

 

As discussed above, this would not apply to apostates.

[Bro_BT]

50 minutes ago, Jay D said:

t would be best to err on the side of caution, lest this thread becomes a political debate about gun laws. We must be politically neutral in imitation of Christ Jesus. 

 

Read Matthew 26:52, replace the word sword with gun and the same principle applies. It is an instrument with the intention of killing, Jehovah knows this and wants us to understand how sacred life is and we would want to make sure we have the correct view of weapons, perhaps this would be a beneficial study project to consider on our Watchtower online Library. 😊

 

I would hate for this to turn into a political debate, and that was never my intent. I'm also not suggesting that anybody should or should not own a gun.

 

We do not have an official stance on gun ownership, as the matter is considered a personal decision for each individual to make based on the reason for ownership, their own conscience, and the laws of their country. Keeping in mind that there are some practical and necessary reasons to own guns, especially in rural areas. 

[Shawnster]

49 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

 

If on the other hand they are opposers using this sad event to persecute us, then we should pray for them.

And what would be the subj of said prayers? Pray for them in what sense? 

[Bro_BT]

1 minute ago, Shawnster said:

And what would be the subj of said prayers? Pray for them in what sense? 

 

In the same sense as Matthew 5:44-45.

[Violin]

5 hours ago, Percy said:

About a month ago, we in Victoria had a special meeting on what to do if a shooter enters the Kingdom Hall. I thought it was unusual. Was this topic covered across the country?

We typically lock our Kingdom Hall after the meeting starts, but there is a button and a camera for the attendant to allow the door to be opened. If someone shows up with a hidden weapon this might not stop him. Do we need x-ray machines and metal detectors now? Yikes!!!!!

Percy

We had that same part in Ontario. 

[Shawnster]

17 minutes ago, Bro_BT said:

 

In the same sense as Matthew 5:44-45.

How do you apply that scripture? Because all it says is pray for them.  So, do we pray they have a good day? Pray that God blesses their efforts? Pray they have peace?  

 

According to Matthew 5:44, 45 in what sense are we to pray for our enemies?  How would you respond? 

 

 

[Just another lowly sheep]

4 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

How do you apply that scripture? Because all it says is pray for them.  So, do we pray they have a good day? Pray that God blesses their efforts? Pray they have peace?  

 

According to Matthew 5:44, 45 in what sense are we to pray for our enemies?  How would you respond? 

 

 

Regarding Russian prison officers, they said they pray for them to have a change of heart