Money in the New System

[Qapla]

No need to have money or barter if we follow the admonition at Matthew 10:8 . . .You received free, give free. . .

 

[Dages]

With eternal life, we basically all get infinite money, ie valueless money.

[New World Explorer]

What is better commodity,  money? or endless time? 

Endless time will afford us to learn to make basically everything we need. 

I might learn from resurrected skillful she man how to make shoes ...manually 

400 years later in my workshop I built advanced machinery that makes perfect shoes.. better than manually. 

In 4000 years I have incredible advanced 3D printer that makes shoes better than a previous machine ..

in 18.000 years I don't need shoes..because I live on the sandy beach LOL 

[bobby]

look at the system now on the one hand you have people who don't lack anything food. homes. cars because they have money

on the there hand you have people who are homeless, starving, and can't get the basic things in life 

so why would Jehovah support or keep infrastructure that would suppress a large population 

 and if he kept the same way we have it now what would be the point of the new system 

[LeolaRootStew]

15 hours ago, Dark King said:

I think the only currency Will Be Loved. We all would be just like the Good Samaritan.

 

Also, think about who would decide the value of the currency and who will decide the value of my labor.

 

it would be decided between the two parties involved

[LeolaRootStew]

14 hours ago, Qapla said:

No need to have money or barter if we follow the admonition at Matthew 10:8 . . .You received free, give free. . .

 

 

that is talking about spiritual truth/miracles, not material things. we can be generous with our things, but we are not obligated to give it all  - it's a choice

Edited January 22 by LeolaRootStew

[Katty]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:12 PM, LeolaRootStew said:

 

But if i don't want your produce, i'd rather get money so i can save up for something i actually want. Money is useful.

That's a fair point. As all money is an abstraction for barter, and my idea is not just a straightforward transaction as I described. It was just an example. It might be just a ledger that I'm obligated to give you something with equal value to what I took from you, and you can incur that debt for anything you'd like, because I would also, in this scenario, I would not only have a variety of goods and abilities (I can already grow lettuce, spinach, potatoes, and spring onions with my limited space and limited time, as well as crochet a variety of items, sew clothes, paint, and do basic things with clay, so I'm sure I'll be able to do even more in the new system). I would also have a ledger of things owed to me from those who want the things I produce, so if nothing I make interests you, perhaps, I can build credit with others who produce different things from myself: like a friend of mine who deep dives and collects coral, or a friend who mines and collects geodes or gemstones (these are just examples). I might have sufficient credit with the coral diver or geode collector to be equivalent of a thousand oranges from your orchard, so instead of giving something I make, it might be more value to you to pass on the credit I've obtained with such people onto you, instead. 
Yes, it would be complicated, and it would be a lot to keep in our heads, but the advantages such a system would have over money would be, it would be completely decentralized, and no one would produce anything that's necessarily more valuable than what someone else produces. Value is in the eye of the beholder anyway. The trouble with money is that it has, at least, somewhat  of an objective value. A dollar has a specific value based meaning in the world exchange. I believe that a ledger based barter system would be nice, because value would be aggregated at an individual level based on what any given individual actually wants at any given time. As for the complication, if you have forever, then you have time to deal with it, and if everyone is perfect or reaching perfection, I'm sure we'll be able to keep a lot in our heads. Cryptocurrency is based on a similar system, although a bit more abstracted, and it has to implement checks and balances, because, again, people can't always be trusted in this system. 

Also: not trying to dogmatic with this: in reality, we have no idea how trade will work out, even if we do have a massive trade system. I'm just saying one possibility that I could see happening, possibly.

Edited January 22 by Katty

[LeolaRootStew]

16 hours ago, Dages said:

With eternal life, we basically all get infinite money, ie valueless money.

 

if we had a set supply, there would not be an infinite amount, nor would there be inflation/deflation.

[LeolaRootStew]

2 hours ago, Katty said:

That's a fair point. As all money is an abstraction for barter, and my idea is not just a straightforward transaction as I described. It was just an example. It might be just a ledger that I'm obligated to give you something with equal value to what I took from you, and you can incur that debt for anything you'd like, because I would also, in this scenario, I would not only have a variety of goods and abilities (I can already grow lettuce, spinach, potatoes, and spring onions with my limited space and limited time, as well as crochet a variety of items, sew clothes, paint, and do basic things with clay, so I'm sure I'll be able to do even more in the new system). I would also have a ledger of things owed to me from those who want the things I produce, so if nothing I make interests you, perhaps, I can build credit with others who produce different things from myself: like a friend of mine who deep dives and collects coral, or a friend who mines and collects geodes or gemstones (these are just examples). I might have sufficient credit with the coral diver or geode collector to be equivalent of a thousand oranges from your orchard, so instead of giving something I make, it might be more value to you to pass on the credit I've obtained with such people onto you, instead. 
Yes, it would be complicated, and it would be a lot to keep in our heads, but the advantages such a system would have over money would be, it would be completely decentralized, and no one would produce anything that's necessarily more valuable than what someone else produces. Value is in the eye of the beholder anyway. The trouble with money is that it has, at least, somewhat  of an objective value. A dollar has a specific value based meaning in the world exchange. I believe that a ledger based barter system would be nice, because value would be aggregated at an individual level based on what any given individual actually wants at any given time. As for the complication, if you have forever, then you have time to deal with it, and if everyone is perfect or reaching perfection, I'm sure we'll be able to keep a lot in our heads. Cryptocurrency is based on a similar system, although a bit more abstracted, and it has to implement checks and balances, because, again, people can't always be trusted in this system. 

Also: not trying to dogmatic with this: in reality, we have no idea how trade will work out, even if we do have a massive trade system. I'm just saying one possibility that I could see happening, possibly.

 

Thank you, that was very well thought out. 

 

For me, I'm not afraid of centralization because we'll be able to trust the government. It would also help to have an idea of the "prices" of things if you could see a record of them being traded online. For instance, you may believe that one geode is worth 1000 oranges, but imagine what would happen if the person with the oranges looked it up online and determined they were worth more like 10 oranges. Having a reference point like that could prevent a negative situation where one person feels like the other might have been trying to take advantage of them. That being said, it will always be difficult to put a price on beauty.

 

I can imagine a scenario in New England where maple syrup is made. There's a limited supply, and I'm sure they would be happy to give away many bottles of it, but at some point the supplies run out. I can imagine that I would strike a deal with the makers to provide them with something in exchange for guaranteeing that i get a bottle or two. I could provide products, but I could also provide money.

 

It makes sense to me that in a world where only so much supply of something exists, even if it was given away for free, the rarity of getting it would make it inherently more valuable to people. I can easily imagine trying to bribe someone into giving me a bottle they got for free. That's why I think money still makes sense. It would make sense to me that something that is sought after and rare would cost more than something that is plentiful. And money is a useful third-party object when you don't have something specific to trade that someone else wants.

 

The only other option I can think of is either some kind of lottery system that people can enter into to get maple syrup, or that certain goods are never traded with individuals over a certain distance from the source, but can be traded with towns. And maybe when they are sent to towns it is treated like share-cropping - everyone gets an even amount distributed to them. But what about the insane people who don't want a share of maple syrup? they can trade it in...for money. 😉

 

All I know is I want maple syrup.

 

 

[LeolaRootStew]

8 hours ago, bobby said:

look at the system now on the one hand you have people who don't lack anything food. homes. cars because they have money

on the there hand you have people who are homeless, starving, and can't get the basic things in life 

so why would Jehovah support or keep infrastructure that would suppress a large population 

 and if he kept the same way we have it now what would be the point of the new system 

 

Money didn't create poverty.

 

Ii support the second option where things like public housing and food will always be free, but there will be other things that are harder to come by (see my reply on maple syrup) that may cost money because of their rarity - so no one will be homeless or starving unless they want to be.

 

I don't think money will be the focal point of society, I think it can help fill in the gaps left by bartering and trade.

Edited January 22 by LeolaRootStew

[Paul s]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:51 AM, Old said:

Why? Money is only a medium to facilitate the bartering process. You have something I want, I have something you want. Easier to trade some paper than take your ten chickens for my lamb.

 

Someone needs chickens.

 "I have chickens how many do you need?"

"Thank you, four should do it."   "Come spring I will have a lot of lambs to pass around.  "

 

Not quite. A barter system as we think of it has never been found we just assume that's how things started.

An interesting book if you're interested is Debt by David Graeber which looks at many examples of how different societies worked without much physical currency as we know it

[Dages]

I'm more for a system based on generosity and thankfulness.

Give for free.

Receive, then give for free later too, out of gratitude.

 

Limited supply ? First come first served.

Last supply, 2 people wanting them at the same time ? I'm sure they would battle over letting the other having it, instead of trying to bribe the supplier to get the last product.

 

Love, generosity, patience, gratitude, this is the way

Edited January 23 by Dages

[Dolce vita]

17 minutes ago, Dages said:

I'm more for a system based on generosity and thankfulness.

Give for free.

Receive, then give for free later too, out of gratitude.

 

Limited supply ? First come first served.

Last supply, 2 people wanting them at the same time ? I'm sure they would battle over letting the other having it, instead of trying to bribe the supplier to get the last product.

 

Love, generosity, patience, gratitude, this is the way

This is the way I want to think about it as well, David. Generosity of the heart, full point. 

[Michał]

 
In the Little House on the Prairie series (based on real life), the Father decided to move his family farther West. He traded the house he built for a wagon and horses etc, so he could start his journey and a new family didn't have to start from scratch. That's barter; both parties benefitted.
 
I think a lot of Witnesses have this idea that barter and money are about greed, selfishness, or any number of negative things. It's not. Barter helps you to trade things you don't need anymore for things you do. Money helps when you run out of useful things to trade.

Thank you for this example.

As I imagine it, when I want to move out of the house, if nobody is interested in the immediate area, I just put it on the list of houses and anyone from anywhere can claim it (free of charge).

To make a move, I can just ask a wagon and horses from the local community and sent it back after my family moves. (Actually, I think that transportation will be public based so carriages horses, cars whatever will be used as we have scooters or rent cars in bigger cities – of course, without money.)

When my family moves to a new location, we have two options, claim an empty house that somebody has left our ask for a plot of plant to build our own house.


(Tapatalk)

[Korotkiy]

Once I have read phantastic novel "Returning from stars" of Stanislaw Lem.
He have good ideas about future. Most needs in the future (food, transportation, basic entertaiments) are free, but if somebody want something very extra
(like travel to Moon or rest on tropic islands, or luxuries..) - this also deployed be for free, but has some limit (like points, per year)

I think at least first time, when we and recurrected ones will be still unperfect, this system might be exist.

[New World Explorer]

7 minutes ago, Korotkiy said:

Once I have read phantastic novel "Returning from stars" of Stanislaw Lem.
He have good ideas about future. Most needs in the future (food, transportation, basic entertaiments) are free, but if somebody want something very extra
(like travel to Moon or rest on tropic islands, or luxuries..) - this also deployed be for free, but has some limit (like points, per year)

I think at least first time, when we and recurrected ones will be still unperfect, this system might be exist.

You brothers and sisters suffering under KOTN need double points in a New World!

[Witness1970]

No currency.  No bartering. 

You receive free, give free.

There is more joy in giving than there is in receiving.

Practice giving, and people will give to you. They will pour into your laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you in return.

The righteous one is generous* and giving.  

The generous person* will prosper,*+

And whoever refreshes* others will himself be refreshed.

[Dhanyel]

The efforts of man to build a truly prosperous yet morally pure society have failed several times. However, God has promised that His Kingdom will provide abundance of both material and spiritual necessities for a good life. (Psalm 72:16; Isaiah 65:21-23) Jesus taught that true prosperity begins with spirituality. (Matthew 5:3) Therefore, regardless of our financial situation, prioritizing spiritual matters now is the best way to prepare for God's imminent new world. (1 Timothy 6:17-19) In this new world, there will be a truly prosperous society in both material and spiritual senses.

 

[Mike047]

With one global nation, no money, but a new currency - God's word being universally known and accepted, mans willingness to work together and share - surely this is better currency.

[Dages]

7 hours ago, Korotkiy said:

Once I have read phantastic novel "Returning from stars" of Stanislaw Lem.
He have good ideas about future. Most needs in the future (food, transportation, basic entertaiments) are free, but if somebody want something very extra
(like travel to Moon or rest on tropic islands, or luxuries..) - this also deployed be for free, but has some limit (like points, per year)

I think at least first time, when we and recurrected ones will be still unperfect, this system might be exist.

Alright, I'm going to read this right away

[Katty]

19 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

Thank you, that was very well thought out. 

 

For me, I'm not afraid of centralization because we'll be able to trust the government. It would also help to have an idea of the "prices" of things if you could see a record of them being traded online. For instance, you may believe that one geode is worth 1000 oranges, but imagine what would happen if the person with the oranges looked it up online and determined they were worth more like 10 oranges. Having a reference point like that could prevent a negative situation where one person feels like the other might have been trying to take advantage of them. That being said, it will always be difficult to put a price on beauty.

 

I can imagine a scenario in New England where maple syrup is made. There's a limited supply, and I'm sure they would be happy to give away many bottles of it, but at some point the supplies run out. I can imagine that I would strike a deal with the makers to provide them with something in exchange for guaranteeing that i get a bottle or two. I could provide products, but I could also provide money.

 

It makes sense to me that in a world where only so much supply of something exists, even if it was given away for free, the rarity of getting it would make it inherently more valuable to people. I can easily imagine trying to bribe someone into giving me a bottle they got for free. That's why I think money still makes sense. It would make sense to me that something that is sought after and rare would cost more than something that is plentiful. And money is a useful third-party object when you don't have something specific to trade that someone else wants.

 

The only other option I can think of is either some kind of lottery system that people can enter into to get maple syrup, or that certain goods are never traded with individuals over a certain distance from the source, but can be traded with towns. And maybe when they are sent to towns it is treated like share-cropping - everyone gets an even amount distributed to them. But what about the insane people who don't want a share of maple syrup? they can trade it in...for money. 😉

 

All I know is I want maple syrup.

 

 

I mean, by then, we will have a government we can fully trust though, so I could very well be wrong from the beginning. On the other hand, Jehovah has never been prone to micromanaging.

[LeolaRootStew]

4 hours ago, Katty said:

I mean, by then, we will have a government we can fully trust though, so I could very well be wrong from the beginning. On the other hand, Jehovah has never been prone to micromanaging.

 

I look forward to the micro-managing. 😂 I'm sure we'll have all sorts of regulations on where and how to build just in the category of respecting wildlife or for safety. Moving from New England to the Southern US, I was surprised by the differences in building codes just because the environment and the ground are different. It would make sense to have approval committees and inspectors to make sure you don't build something that will fall down or destroy a rare habitat you never thought of.

[bobby]

why would you need currency of any kind when you can simply grow it on your land like cotton to make clothes

or grow a tree to make furniture or build a home? 

or plant crops, to make wine, beer, bread, 

[Hope]

51 minutes ago, bobby said:

why would you need currency of any kind when you can simply grow it on your land like cotton to make clothes

or grow a tree to make furniture or build a home? 

or plant crops, to make wine, beer, bread, 

 

It takes many months for cotton and other crops to grow to harvest.  Even longer for trees.  Sometimes people need clothes, food and homes/furniture now..  

[Rodejong]

Where is the thought that Jehovah will provide for everything we need?

Seek first God's Kingdom and everything else will be provided for. Why should there be any use of money? In Israel they traded life stock, fruits of the land, clothes, etc. 

If we believe, Jesus, the apostles, special pioneers, or normal brothers and sisters like you and me have experienced how Jehovah always provides.

 

I see no reason for something that only has caused greed and unhappiness to be instated in the new order. 

 

Look at the arrangements we now have. If someone is in need, the congregation, or a relieve committee will provide for that. 

 

Why would it be any different in the new order? 

 

Don't think from this systems point of view, but from God's Kingdoms point of view.