Even If You COULD...Would You?

[Timl1980]

What a thought...what an unusual, fearful and utterly foreign thought!

 

And yet...once you understand the question...it should cause each and every single one of us to truly pause and reflect...reflect not on the trite simplistic answer that every single one of us would surely give within seconds of such an apparently idiotic question...but TRULY reflect by taking time to dip the proverbial bucket deep into your heart and draw out the absolute truth of what lies deep within.

 

Intrigued yet?

 

Here, then...is the question: If Jehovah approached YOU...as an individual...and spoke directly to YOU...and in that conversation He offered YOU the opportunity to gain the same exact prize as every single other faithful human who has ever lived...everlasting life on a paradise earth...PLUS the absolute right and ability to RULE YOURSELF AS AN INDIVIDUAL...would you take it?

 

No oversight...no rules...you have the total and complete authority to simply rule yourself...as a sovereign citizen...would you take Him up on the offer?

 

Before you jump on the band wagon and roll your eyes and say, "Obviously not, Tim!! Who on earth would choose THAT??"...please open your Bible and read the following verse very carefully:

 

Psalms 84:10: "For a day in your courtyards is better than a thousand anywhere else! I choose to stand at the threshold of the house of my God Rather than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

 

Do each of us truly feel like the Psalmist?

 

If I had the absolute right and ability to rule myself...would I still voluntarily submit to Jehovah's rulership? Would I recognize that, even as a perfect human with all my capabilities perfectly intact...Jehovah's way of ruling would STILL be better?

 

This came from a note in my study bible...and I just wanted to throw this out there to see everyone else's thoughts on the matter. I hadn't even considered this until a kind sister asked me a very simple yet profound question regarding this scripture: Tim... what lies at the very bottom of your heart regarding this matter? (She said it in different words, but her question hit me like a punch in the gut...and it caused me to dive deeply into the subject of Jehovah's sovereignty).

 

So now...I will ask the same thing to each of you...in my own way. Thus, I repeat: Even if you COULD...would you?

 

 

[DancesWithWife]

13 minutes ago, Timl1980 said:

..PLUS the absolute right and ability to RULE YOURSELF AS AN INDIVIDUAL...would you take it?

Yes, for 1 second and then abdicate my right to rule myself and turn my life back over  to Jehovah. Based on your question Jehovah gave me the right and ability with that it would becoming directly from him. So, in turn I would choose to abdicate that right and ability. 

[Timl1980]

1 minute ago, DancesWithWife said:

Yes, for 1 second and then abdicate my right to rule myself and turn my life back over  to Jehovah. Based on your question Jehovah gave me the right and ability with that it would becoming directly from him. So, in turn I would choose to abdicate that right and ability. 

Interesting...after examining that verse and praying on it...I wrote the following in my Bible: Even if such a thing were possible...I would never deliberately choose to be independent... (even for a second) ...because recognizing Jehovah's sovereignty means, (to me), that I would have no desire whatsoever to rule myself...no matter how long or how short of a time it is. 

 

I also quoted 1 Corinthians 6:12: "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are advantageous." 

 

After careful consideration and a lot of heart searching, I came to the conclusion that...even if Jehovah offered...I would summarily decline.

 

 

[jwhess]

Everyone of the anointed 144,000 have made that same decision.  Immortal or not, indestructible or not, they choose to follow the Christ and obey God.  Their attainment of perfection and the gift of an undying existence has not changed their mind.  It is their personal choice...💗

[Timl1980]

Absolutely, and that is why it took me so long to go through the subject of sovereignty, and how it would make Jehovah feel if that offer was actually taken by someone. 

 

Thank you for your comments!

[Thomas Walker]

If some science lab announced tomorrow morning that they had cracked an 'immortality serum', you know what would happen. Everyone would fight for first dibs. The Rich and Powerful would get priority, and then suddenly realize that the world would fill up too fast, and limit access.

 

If, for the sake of argument, everyone was given eternal life anyway, by means other than Paradise, under Divine Rule? Then what? You'd spend eternity working off debts that somehow kept growing for all eternity, the way student debt does now. Someone would raise the cost of food dramatically, because 'you can't really die, so do you need to eat, given how many mouths there are to feed?'

 

The only way to be wealthy now is if you inherited a huge fortune from your parents. if they never die, do rich kids spend eternity on their old allowance, working in Daddy's company, with no chance to ever do anything different?

 

If the world could have granted eternal life even 200 years ago, the Class Systems would ensure that slaves would never be freed, and spend eternity under the whip. The Aristocrats would despise poor people even more than they did already.  The powerful would find some way to exploit the absence of death for their own profit. Even the very patient, who saved little coins, one at a time, for a billion years, and eventually have their fortune? imagine the bitterness that would come from centuries of denial, prejudice...

 

If the secular world could have granted eternal life in the time of the Pharaohs, or the Emperors, or literally any point in human history, then society would have become static. With the same people in charge forever, nothing would ever change from the way it is. If a King, or a President could rule for longer than a Term Limit, or even a lifetime, the world would become fixed.

 

Watch any period piece, any move set as recently as the 90's, and you'll see how times have changed. You nod and say "That was how we thought back then." Now imagine that you never get to see any 'new' faces on television, or hear any new leadership ideas.

 

Believe me, Eternal Life is the least of what will make it a Paradise.

 

***

 

As to the other question, "Would you step away from God's Rule if you could, without losing His Promise?"

 

I don't know. Probably a few more movies/books/video games I'd normally avoid. It's not like going out to bars, or smoking a cigarette holds any appeal to me.

[computerwiz]

3 hours ago, Timl1980 said:

Even if you COULD...would you?

 

Not even for an instant. Simply having the right is not enough. I don't have the wisdom or foresight of Jehovah. I would fail easily. Having permission doesn't make me wise enough to make all the best decisions. 

[Amygdala]

4 hours ago, Timl1980 said:

Psalms 84:10: "For a day in your courtyards is better than a thousand anywhere else! I choose to stand at the threshold of the house of my God Rather than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

 

Do each of us truly feel like the Psalmist?

 

If you grew up without family in the Truth, you really feel the essence of those words in Psalms 84. So I guess because I know what it’s like on the other side, so-to-speak, it would seem foolish for me to decide to go back to the life before Jehovah. Anyone who has experienced a straying from Jehovah’s ways, whether rich or poor, or who were born in the truth or not, knows what it feels like without Jehovah in their lives.

 

Thankfully we have many interviews already of those who regretted leaving Jehovah in the first place but came to their senses, realizing why it is a waste to live for oneself, and all the consequences that come along with that.

 

I remember an interview I read of a brother who was an atheist prior to coming into the Truth. He was grateful that Jehovah had forgiven him for his past views and was now happily serving Him. He really appreciated Jehovah’s great love and the relationship he was now blessed with by having Jehovah in his life. I found his comments interesting as being a former atheist, you could say he was simply so due to ignorance. But his feelings about Jehovah and coming to know Him as a real person was so deep, that he was sorry for his former way of life without Jehovah.

[Dages]

The answer is Yes.
We choose freely the rule to obey Jehovah  

 

It's like the question : what if Jehovah gave you all his powers ? You could start A-day right now. Would you?
 

My answer: No, I'd ask him "what was your original plan, I'm going to follow it".

[Andrey]

Brother Tim, to answer your question, we need to consider the very nature of being human as a creation.

 

Man was created for eternal life, but not with the ability to be separated from Jehovah. We remember the words in Jeremiah 10:23: I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. (Ecclesiastes 3:11) So even being perfect, no matter how much time you spend, you will always feel the need for guidance. This is the original nature of the creation of man and all intelligent creatures.

 

Absolute Right. Jehovah will never do that. The reason is simple - Jehovah will not break the principle of headship, the hierarchical ladder that he originally established. Why not? Because equality breeds rivalry and there is danger of violating all the Laws of the Universe, both in spiritual and material life. This will expose the danger of destroying everything He created, it will produce chaos. (Isaiah 43:11; 44:8; Hosea 13:4) 

 

I once pondered why Jehovah did not allow himself to become a man and do what Jesus did, the atoning sacrifice. Why did I think about it? People believe in the Trinity and consider Jesus equal to Jehovah God. Imagine for a moment that Jehovah became a man? Satan would destroy God himself. Humans are vulnerable and mortal even perfect humans. And...what is the fate of all creatures? The question is irrelevant! “To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One. (Isaiah 40:25)

 

In the New World, Jehovah will make us perfect and give us full authority to govern ourselves. We will have the choice to serve Jehovah and recognize His Lordship or to go the way Satan the Devil, demons and people who have chosen absolute freedom from Jehovah have chosen.

 

And if we look at it from the other side, if Jehovah wanted to make us independent and absolutely free, then maybe we would live like that, because that is His plan as Creator, Lawgiver, King, Father. "For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Lawgiver, Jehovah is our King" (Isaiah 33:22)

 

That's my opinion. 🙃

Edited March 2 by Andrey

[Dages]

Even anointed in heaven, receiving immortal life (aseity), still choose to follow Jehovah's purpose  

[Timl1980]

13 minutes ago, Andrey said:

Brother Tim, to answer your question, we need to consider the very nature of being human as a creation.

 Thank you for your comment, and thank you to everyone else who has commented and shared their thoughts.

 

I had never considered this question in this depth before that sister pointed it out to me. I'm very grateful to her because it has helped me get a much deeper insight into the subject, and I've been able to examine my heart in a way I hadn't before.

 

You are right, David. Even the anointed choose freely to follow Jehovah.

 

Having left Jehovah myself, I felt this question very deeply, and that's why I appreciate Amygdala's comment as well.

 

Thanks for the comments, the feedback helps me get a much deeper insight into what's still hidden sometimes at the bottom of my heart.

[Asele]

9 hours ago, Timl1980 said:

What a thought...what an unusual, fearful and utterly foreign thought!

 

And yet...once you understand the question...it should cause each and every single one of us to truly pause and reflect...reflect not on the trite simplistic answer that every single one of us would surely give within seconds of such an apparently idiotic question...but TRULY reflect by taking time to dip the proverbial bucket deep into your heart and draw out the absolute truth of what lies deep within.

 

Intrigued yet?

 

Here, then...is the question: If Jehovah approached YOU...as an individual...and spoke directly to YOU...and in that conversation He offered YOU the opportunity to gain the same exact prize as every single other faithful human who has ever lived...everlasting life on a paradise earth...PLUS the absolute right and ability to RULE YOURSELF AS AN INDIVIDUAL...would you take it?

 

No oversight...no rules...you have the total and complete authority to simply rule yourself...as a sovereign citizen...would you take Him up on the offer?

 

Before you jump on the band wagon and roll your eyes and say, "Obviously not, Tim!! Who on earth would choose THAT??"...please open your Bible and read the following verse very carefully:

 

Psalms 84:10: "For a day in your courtyards is better than a thousand anywhere else! I choose to stand at the threshold of the house of my God Rather than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

 

Do each of us truly feel like the Psalmist?

 

If I had the absolute right and ability to rule myself...would I still voluntarily submit to Jehovah's rulership? Would I recognize that, even as a perfect human with all my capabilities perfectly intact...Jehovah's way of ruling would STILL be better?

 

This came from a note in my study bible...and I just wanted to throw this out there to see everyone else's thoughts on the matter. I hadn't even considered this until a kind sister asked me a very simple yet profound question regarding this scripture: Tim... what lies at the very bottom of your heart regarding this matter? (She said it in different words, but her question hit me like a punch in the gut...and it caused me to dive deeply into the subject of Jehovah's sovereignty).

 

So now...I will ask the same thing to each of you...in my own way. Thus, I repeat: Eve you COULD...would you?

 

 

I will gladly say I don't want to rule myself, our first parents were perfect and longed to rule themselves and here we are today suffering for what we know nothing about, i will not want to put my future generation in such a mess, so I will prefer my maker direct myself 

[Timl1980]

2 minutes ago, Asele said:

I will gladly say I don't want to rule myself, our first parents were perfect and longed to rule themselves and here we are today suffering for what we know nothing about, i will not want to put my future generation in such a mess, so I will prefer my maker direct myself 

 

Absolutely agree! Even as a perfect being...I simply would not have the scope of understanding that Jehovah has. Plus, as Jeremiah 10:23 says: "I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

 

That scripture doesn't include a footnote clarifying the limitation of its meaning to whether an individual is perfect or not...it simply states a fact...we were not created to direct our own step.

[Asele]

13 minutes ago, Timl1980 said:

 

Absolutely agree! Even as a perAgreeimply would not have the scope of understanding that Jehovah has. Plus, as Jeremiah 10:23 says: "I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

 

That scripture doesn't include a footnote clarifying the limitation of its meaning to whether an individual is perfect or not...it simply states a fact...we were not created to direct our steps.

Jehovah God is supremely qualified to provide such direction. Why? Because he understand  better than anyone else the makeup of humans. That's why he also gave the admonition record at psalm 32:8  "I will give you insight and instruct you in the way you should go. I will give you advice with my eye upon you." So there is no doubt about Jehovah providing  the best direction for us.

Edited March 2 by Asele

[Roberto]

Interesting questions Tim.

 

Similar discussion were in these editions of The Watchtower:

 

"What is the motivation for submission to God’s sovereignty? It is LOVE FOR GOD because of his DIVINE QUALITIES, and also love for what is right and good FOR ALL CREATION. The one who understands what Jehovah’s sovereignty means prefers it above all other sovereignties. In fact, those supporting God’s rulership prefer it to having absolute independence, if that were possible. Why? Because they know that THEY WILL BE MUCH HAPPIER UNDER GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY than they would be if they could do altogether as they pleased. They realize that the wisdom, love, knowledge and power of God are so far superior to theirs that there is no comparison. Humans cannot keep themselves living everlastingly, neither can they bring about peace, righteousness and justice throughout the earth. “It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step,” said Jeremiah, a faithful supporter of Jehovah’s sovereignty.—JER. 10:23."

w78 7/15 p. 22

 

"the Devil contends that Jehovah exercises his sovereignty in an unworthy way and that mankind would be better off ruling themselves. Is Satan right? SUPPOSE THAT HUMANS WHO CHOSE SELF-RULE COULD LIVE FOREVER. Would they be better off without God’s rulership? WOULD YOU BE HAPPIER if you had absolute independence and everlasting life?

NO ONE CAN ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS FOR YOU. Each person should think the matter through. In doing so, it should become evident that God’s sovereignty is right. It is the best rulership. And it deserves our WHOLEHEARTED SUPPORT."

w17 6 p. 27

 

I also love this excellent talk by brother Aljan, "An Important reminder"

(If you want exact quote, what he said, just watch the talk please, this is small excerpt from the end part of his talk, 41:05)

 

"Satan promise: Go to my site, I will let you create your own moral code. You will be happier." Even if Satan could do this - of course he cannot even remotely accomplish what Jehovah intends - but let us assume that he could equal God and create a world without sadness, disease, and death. However, it would still be a world without Jehovah - unacceptable to those who love Jehovah. We don't want such a world. We want Jehovah to rule over us. We want to be subject to His sovereignty, and we demonstrate this through our loyalty and joyful service".

 

The last annual meeting highlight how really important is this - love for Jehovah, and brothers from Governing Body wanted to remind us this is more important than hours in the service and other things, what can we do. The important question is WHY I do this or this, what MOTIVATES me. 

 

 

Beautiful points that have already been wrote earlier in this topic,

I personally like to meditate about the principle from the Mosaic law, 

 

Exodus 21:5

But if the slave should insist and say, ‘I LOVE MY MASTER, my wife, and my sons; I DO NOT WANT TO BE SET FREE".

 

Eve lacked such devotion, love and gratitude. She wanted to be independent. As surprising as the snake's offer was, she would have rejected it if she had loved Jehovah with all her heart and felt gratitude (and.. how to recognize sincere gratitude? In action. Luke 17:11-19, only one leper returned to Jesus, how did he differ from the others? The difference was that God’s kindness through Christ Jesus REACHED HIS HEART. In his healing he saw evidence of what a grand God Jehovah is, and he was filled with DESIRE TO PRAISE HIM).

 

Similarly, Adam, loved his wife more than Jehovah - his father and friend, because they were not in a master-slave relationship... on the contrary, Jehovah created them as free people, he showed them respect, kindness, and wanted them to be happy. Unfortunately, there was no gratitude or loyalty on THEIR PART. They rejected his friendship.

 

Eve loved herself more than God, and Adam loved his wife more than God.

 

 I want to imitate Jesus, who was always devoted to Jehovah.

John 14:31 "I love the Father" (and he showed it with his whole life).

 

 

[Dolce vita]

 

The question behind the question is: 'Would we still choose Jehovah if he allowed us to be independent of him? "

 

I really liked the reference proposed by Brother Roberto:
"Exodus 21:5 : ' But if the slave insists and says: “I LOVE MY MASTER, my wife and my sons; I DON’T WANT TO BE RELEASED.”

 

Why do we serve Jehovah? For eternal life in paradise? And what would this life be of pleasure and happiness to live without Jehovah and his Son, by which I mean, in this immense universe, without awareness of what exists beyond the horizon, without the perspective of living . eternally by setting out on an adventure throughout the universe, without the possibility of saying thank you to the One who created all things, of feeling indebted for all his gifts, without the use of singing praises when our heart explodes with happiness?

 

What would a child deprive himself of if, from a very young age, he could lead himself and succeed in life, but without any connection with his parents? What would be this kind of happiness that we cannot share with the one who offers it to us?

 

I take great pleasure in recognizing the sovereignty of Jehovah and in wishing never to do without it because on the one hand Jehovah is delicious, charming as David said, no one like him exists and never will exist. On the other hand, I recognize that whatever Jehovah requires of us is truly for our good, so I have embraced his way of thinking and made it my own. I'm not up to it but it's become my way of thinking. I therefore do not feel imprisoned, crushed by my obedience to its laws, they have become mine, those that I dictate to myself.

 

If Jehovah offered us the possibility of living independently of him we should refuse, be frightened by the prospect of living without him, without communication with him, without his light and the security we feel in his presence. The Bible says that Jehovah is a sun (Psalm 84:11). Can we live without the sun, without its heat and its light?

Deprive yourself of Jehovah: IMPOSSIBLE. Or we are dead.

We are just creatures. We are by nature dependent. And with Jehovah this dependence is the very definition of our happiness, of the success of our life, of eternal life at his side.

[Abigail]

On 3/2/2024 at 3:54 AM, jwhess said:

Everyone of the anointed 144,000 have made that same decision.  Immortal or not, indestructible or not, they choose to follow the Christ and obey God.  Their attainment of perfection and the gift of an undying existence has not changed their mind.  It is their personal choice...💗

 

Jesus too. 1 Corinthians 15:28. 

[Abigail]

15 minutes ago, Dolce vita said:

 

We are just creatures. We are by nature dependent. And with Jehovah this dependence is the very definition of our happiness, of the success of our life, of eternal life at his side.

Love this x

[WestBro]

On 3/1/2024 at 11:47 PM, Timl1980 said:

 

If I had the absolute right and ability to rule myself...would I still voluntarily submit to Jehovah's rulership? Would I recognize that, even as a perfect human with all my capabilities perfectly intact...Jehovah's way of ruling would STILL be better?

 

I would definitely choose no. Even though it's perfect, stopping to think about this possibility, I feel desperate.

 

I imagine that gaining this independence from Jehovah would also imply making decisions without the possibility of consulting him.

 

Stopping to meditate on this shows me that life would not make sense independent of our Creator.

 

[Roberto]

12 hours ago, Dolce vita said:

What would a child deprive himself of if, from a very young age, he could lead himself and succeed in life, but without any connection with his parents? What would be this kind of happiness that we cannot share with the one who offers it to us?

 

I like this reference to family.

From our nature we need connection with others to be happy. And we always be children from God's perspective.

 

Makes me think and meditate: who is Jehovah for me - God, the Ruler of the universe, or also and above all Father? (Sometimes personal experiences from childhood can make this perspective difficult, I had to learn this myself, and it is a process). But when Jesus was on earth, taught people to look at God as a Father (model prayer, the entire sermon on the mount). Jehovah wants us to look at Him this way. 

Yes, it's true, He gave us laws and principles, but not to emphasize His power and authority, he is not strict ("I am the lord and ruler here!"), but to PROTECT OUR HAPPINESS. Jehovah's laws and principles are a GIFT. Just like a loving father installs railings/fences on the balcony.

 

Even Jehovah himself (in a sense) stopped being completely independent, when He became Creator. When Jesus was created, the joy of coexistence appeared in the universe. This wasn't the case before. Jehovah wanted to share the joy of life. He founded a universal family, first of heavenly creatures, then on earth (we do not know about other forms of life in the universe, Bible does not mention it).

If we think from Jehovah's viewpoint, he doesnt want to be far from us, he does not force us to be close, he has shown us love by giving us life, and he delights greatly when we show gratitude for all this. Just like in an earthly family, parents want to be close to their children, even when they grow up and start families of their own. And on the other hand, grateful children do not want to be far from their parents. Family means bond. This relationship with the heavenly Father was severely damaged and even broken in the Garden of Eden. And what does Jehovah do? He continues to seek connection with us, friendship and love with earthly childrens (the promise of Genesis 3:15, Jesus comes to earth). 

And we know that everything we do AFFECTS Jehovah's feelings. That's why I think that the proposition "do you want to be completely moral independent?" would mean that Jehovah has no feelings for me, which is inconsistent with His purpose and His personality.

 

Jehovah has a purpose and wants us to be part of it. Nothing will give you greater happiness.

 

Like one brother said, if you want to be independent, stop breathing 😄 (but please don't do it 😁)

[Pjdriver]

I like what  French philosopher Simone Weil said.  Something like this:

 

"If I had the power of God, I would change many things in this world.

But if I had the wisdom of God, I would not change a thing.”    

 

[LeolaRootStew]

On 3/1/2024 at 8:47 PM, Timl1980 said:

What a thought...what an unusual, fearful and utterly foreign thought!

 

And yet...once you understand the question...it should cause each and every single one of us to truly pause and reflect...reflect not on the trite simplistic answer that every single one of us would surely give within seconds of such an apparently idiotic question...but TRULY reflect by taking time to dip the proverbial bucket deep into your heart and draw out the absolute truth of what lies deep within.

 

Intrigued yet?

 

Here, then...is the question: If Jehovah approached YOU...as an individual...and spoke directly to YOU...and in that conversation He offered YOU the opportunity to gain the same exact prize as every single other faithful human who has ever lived...everlasting life on a paradise earth...PLUS the absolute right and ability to RULE YOURSELF AS AN INDIVIDUAL...would you take it?

 

No oversight...no rules...you have the total and complete authority to simply rule yourself...as a sovereign citizen...would you take Him up on the offer?

 

Before you jump on the band wagon and roll your eyes and say, "Obviously not, Tim!! Who on earth would choose THAT??"...please open your Bible and read the following verse very carefully:

 

Psalms 84:10: "For a day in your courtyards is better than a thousand anywhere else! I choose to stand at the threshold of the house of my God Rather than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

 

Do each of us truly feel like the Psalmist?

 

If I had the absolute right and ability to rule myself...would I still voluntarily submit to Jehovah's rulership? Would I recognize that, even as a perfect human with all my capabilities perfectly intact...Jehovah's way of ruling would STILL be better?

 

This came from a note in my study bible...and I just wanted to throw this out there to see everyone else's thoughts on the matter. I hadn't even considered this until a kind sister asked me a very simple yet profound question regarding this scripture: Tim... what lies at the very bottom of your heart regarding this matter? (She said it in different words, but her question hit me like a punch in the gut...and it caused me to dive deeply into the subject of Jehovah's sovereignty).

 

So now...I will ask the same thing to each of you...in my own way. Thus, I repeat: Even if you COULD...would you?

 

 

 

[Timl1980]

@LeolaRootStew

 

Exactly 😂😂