GB 2025 Update #4

[Dages]

19 hours ago, Sofia said:

I understand you so well 😳

A sister in my previous Cong had a study with whom she did the excommunicated part, and on this very week we got the update about them. Fun 😊 

[Jimi-L]

2 hours ago, Tronora said:

I don't see birthdays coming. I would much rather celebrate my faithful service to Jehovah on my date of baptism. One more year in the truth ❤️ 

 

I wish the organisation would make more out of the end of a service year and/or the beginning of a new one. Time for reflection, and time for setting new goals. Like a kick-off  Year-planning. It's been a personal ambition of mine, but it sort of runs out of steam to be a one-woman kick-off team.

 

Please no shoot-down, ok? Please try to understand what I mean. I wish we could form work-groups where we discussed our personal goals (without a spirit of competition) Maybe because I don't have family in the truth. 

I doubt that pagan holidays are coming, there's no reason to celebrate them, but I would believe that there will be some subtle adjustments, for example, to how we approach certain individual customs or greetings, as happened now.

 

 

[Mike047]

For some of us, the deeply ingrained negative reaction to certain customs will continue to affect our personal views of them. It is helpful, though, to see that individuals may make a personal choice on many things that we used to avoid. Just as long as we are making personal application of correctly understood bible principles.

[ladiife]

2 hours ago, truce said:

What??????!!!!

Stop judging. That’s his business between him Jesus and Jehovah 

[Robinson]

So, toasting is now a personal decision. Taking what they say in consideration and applying it to things where there are no scriptural law, context or principal. There are some things that are easy to debunk, like Christmas. The lies about Jesus' birth, Santa, the star, the 3 wise men. So, goes for Easter, Valentines, etc., easy to debunk.

 

But, what would it mean for something like Thanksgiving? Most people don't see it as a religious custom or they don't see it as wrong because you're showing gratitude. From the 30's to the 80's, there was about 15 articles from the organization that mentioned Thanksgiving. From the 80's till now. There's there's about 5 mentions of Thanksgiving Day. In fact, there hasn't been anything written about Thanksgiving Day in about 20 years (last article was in 2006).

 

Someone asked me about why we don't celebrate Thanksgiving and I had the hardest time coming up with a biblical principal or text. I kept saying, "well, it's rooted in pagan customs and we steer clear of traditions rooted in pagan customs." But, I couldn't even give her what customs from Thanksgiving were rooted in paganism, because I truly don't know what they do at Thanksgiving that is pagan. And she said, "But, is it really wrong to get with family and friends and tell them and/or God that you're thankful for them and/or thankful for God and his blessings?" I had NOTHING to come back with. So, I responded, "Well, maybe it's not a big deal for us because we always get together as Jehovah's Witnesses for food and association and we always give thanks together. So, 1 day isn't a big deal for us because we do it all the time."

 

I went back and prayed and tried to find something in the organizations material and I couldn't find texts or principals for or against Thanksgiving Day that I could show her. The next time I saw her, I prayed to Jehovah that she didn't ask me about Thanksgiving again, because I didn't know what else to say. I truly felt inadequate because I just truly didnt know how to answer her.

 

Would this be a case of Christian conscience, too? Or is this still a no, even though there is no biblical text or principal surrounding the celebration of Thanksgiving? Or is this just one I'll have to learn to be comfortable with not understanding and just don't celebrate it?

[Shawnster]

5 hours ago, Tronora said:

Please no shoot-down, ok? Please try to understand what I mean. I wish we could form work-groups where we discussed our personal goals (without a spirit of competition) Maybe because I don't have family in the truth. 

What is stopping you from doing so? We are encouraged to invite ones over. We are encouraged to have others join us in personal study/family worship. Why not invite a couple of couples or families over and do this for personal study/family worship? 

[Doug]

I find it interesting that our brothers and sisters in India use the "prayer hands" gesture Anjali Mudra.

 

Better known as Namaste, it carries deep cultural and spiritual significance.

 

It is used to show respect to the elderly, teachers, or anyone held in high regard.

 

I like it. I think we should all use that gesture, along with hugs.   ❤️

 

 

[trottigy]

I think it's important to review those three principles again, because it seems like some are not remembering them. The update didn't say all toasting is now okay. They just said they don't see a reason to prohibit it and instead want us to use principles for when it would be okay. If that's true for something as simple as toasting, wouldn't you have to apply these principles for everything?

 

The slave is not saying all celebrations are okay now.

 

This is from the transcript: 

3.1. [Principle 1of3] Would Jehovah Be Offended by This?

At 2 Corinthians 6:17, Jehovah gives us clear direction: “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’”

 

This principle emphasizes that Christians must stay far away from any symbol or custom related to false religion or spiritism.

 

3.2. [Principle 2of3] How Would This Affect Others in the Congregation?

Romans 14:19 and 21 remind us: “So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that build one another up.” “It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.” 

 

Even if a symbol or custom isn’t wrong in itself, we need to consider how others in the congregation might view it. We would never want our actions to offend others needlessly. At the same time, as mature Christians we respect the right that others have to make their own decisions based on their Bible-trained conscience.

 

3.3. [Principle 3of3] How Is This Symbol or Custom Viewed by People in My Culture or Community?

The Bible principle at 1 Corinthians 9:20, 21, and 23 is: “To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law.” “But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.”

 

The principle here is that we take into account how others feel about and view matters. Knowing how a certain symbol or custom is viewed in our own country or community is very important. Something that is very offensive in our land or culture may be viewed as completely innocent in another land or culture.

 

---------------------------

 

Let's use these for birthdays as an example: 

 

1. Do we think Jehovah would be offended if we participated in a celebration that elevated one person over another, used astrological symbols as part of the celebration (i.e. cake in the shape of a moon/ round with twinkling stars/, making a wish while blowing on those stars/ candles), etc.. 

 

 

2. How would this affect our brothers and sisters - especially ones and the truth for a long time? How will this affect our children and then doing their best to remain no part of this world? If it's a slippery slope to stop a prohibition on toasting, how slippery of a slope would it be to stop a Prohibition on birthdays? Is that really the slippery slope we want to ride down?

 

3. It's not judging to remember that our brothers and sisters who've been in the truth for a very long time would clearly be offended by birthdays. You can count me in as one of those who thinks a celebration set based an astrological time and based on astrology while using astrological symbols and that  the day of one's birth has some significance that needs celebrating! 

 

2 Corinthians 6:17 says "quit touching the unclean thing". We must avoid unclean/spiritistic practices. Jehovah says we have to be holy as he is holy. We wouldn't even want to touch this unholy thing IMO.

 

Edit: seeing these principles tells you this is not just the thing between you and Jehovah. This is a thing that affects the entire congregation and that has to be taken into consideration as well.

 

Edited July 6 by trottigy

[Osprey]

On 7/5/2025 at 4:35 AM, LeolaRootStew said:

 

Blessing someone after they sneeze has only one purpose: to affirm your belief in a superstition that says their life is in danger unless you appeal to God. The action of blessing someone is intrinsically tied to the reason for blessing them. The action can never be neutral because you would only act because of a superstition.

 

I never saw it that way. Sneezing may mean he is becoming sick. In our language we say something like wishing him good health, and I never saw what could be wrong with that. Other people in our country see it the same way. And nobody thinks we will prevent him to die by saying this, that thought is ridiculous.

Edited July 6 by Osprey

[LeolaRootStew]

5 hours ago, Robinson said:

So, toasting is now a personal decision. Taking what they say in consideration and applying it to things where there are no scriptural law, context or principal. There are some things that are easy to debunk, like Christmas. The lies about Jesus' birth, Santa, the star, the 3 wise men. So, goes for Easter, Valentines, etc., easy to debunk.

 

But, what would it mean for something like Thanksgiving? Most people don't see it as a religious custom or they don't see it as wrong because you're showing gratitude. From the 30's to the 80's, there was about 15 articles from the organization that mentioned Thanksgiving. From the 80's till now. There's there's about 5 mentions of Thanksgiving Day. In fact, there hasn't been anything written about Thanksgiving Day in about 20 years (last article was in 2006).

 

Someone asked me about why we don't celebrate Thanksgiving and I had the hardest time coming up with a biblical principal or text. I kept saying, "well, it's rooted in pagan customs and we steer clear of traditions rooted in pagan customs." But, I couldn't even give her what customs from Thanksgiving were rooted in paganism, because I truly don't know what they do at Thanksgiving that is pagan. And she said, "But, is it really wrong to get with family and friends and tell them and/or God that you're thankful for them and/or thankful for God and his blessings?" I had NOTHING to come back with. So, I responded, "Well, maybe it's not a big deal for us because we always get together as Jehovah's Witnesses for food and association and we always give thanks together. So, 1 day isn't a big deal for us because we do it all the time."

 

I went back and prayed and tried to find something in the organizations material and I couldn't find texts or principals for or against Thanksgiving Day that I could show her. The next time I saw her, I prayed to Jehovah that she didn't ask me about Thanksgiving again, because I didn't know what else to say. I truly felt inadequate because I just truly didnt know how to answer her.

 

Would this be a case of Christian conscience, too? Or is this still a no, even though there is no biblical text or principal surrounding the celebration of Thanksgiving? Or is this just one I'll have to learn to be comfortable with not understanding and just don't celebrate it?

 

Just consider how many Native Americans refer to Thanksgiving as "Invasion Day" and you can see that it's clearly a divisive political holiday. The 3rd reasoning point in the update was "how is this viewed in the local culture". In our local culture it is viewed as taking sides on a political issue of "Americans" vs "Indigenous people". Does that sound like something a Christian should be taking sides on? 

 

For further review:

 

 

 

[Robinson]

3 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

Just consider how many Native Americans refer to Thanksgiving as "Invasion Day" and you can see that it's clearly a divisive political holiday

I've  never heard it considered a political holiday here in Chicago. First I've heard of it being called Invasion Day, too. And my ancestors are supposedly Choctaw and Cherokee Natives. Maybe it's because of the region I'm in???

[Robinson]

16 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

In our local culture it is viewed as taking sides on a political issue of "Americans" vs "Indigenous people". Does that sound like something a Christian should be taking sides on? 

 Thanksgiving isn't seen like that aong the great lakes. Most black people (African Americans) carry Indigenous blood, and they celebrate it in the world all the time.

 

I guess it depends on the locality of the celebration??? In fact the only divisive thing I've heard of for thanksgiving is stufffing vs dressing and sweet potato pie vs pumpkin pie.

Edited July 6 by Robinson

[Robinson]

On 7/4/2025 at 2:00 PM, Joe said:

Thanksgiving will be next...

Just wrote a post on this. This is widely celebrated even amongst those who have native American blood/ancestry in certain regions/localities. Very little has come out about this from the organization in 40 years. And I've found nothing about it in the last 20 years from the organization. It does make me wonder...

[Andrey]

It seems we are getting closer and closer to this principle:

 

Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed him.—Romans 14:3 

 

One man judges one day as above another; another judges one day the same as all others; let each one be fully convinced in his own mind.—Romans 14:5

 

Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath.—Colossians 2:16

Edited July 6 by Andrey

[truce]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

I think it's important to review those three principles again, because it seems like some are not remembering them. The update didn't say all toasting is now okay. They just said they don't see a reason to prohibit it and instead want us to use principles for when it would be okay. If that's true for something as simple as toasting, wouldn't you have to apply these principles for everything?

 

The slave is not saying all celebrations are okay now.

 

This is from the transcript: 

3.1. [Principle 1of3] Would Jehovah Be Offended by This?

At 2 Corinthians 6:17, Jehovah gives us clear direction: “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’”

 

This principle emphasizes that Christians must stay far away from any symbol or custom related to false religion or spiritism.

 

3.2. [Principle 2of3] How Would This Affect Others in the Congregation?

Romans 14:19 and 21 remind us: “So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that build one another up.” “It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.” 

 

Even if a symbol or custom isn’t wrong in itself, we need to consider how others in the congregation might view it. We would never want our actions to offend others needlessly. At the same time, as mature Christians we respect the right that others have to make their own decisions based on their Bible-trained conscience.

 

3.3. [Principle 3of3] How Is This Symbol or Custom Viewed by People in My Culture or Community?

The Bible principle at 1 Corinthians 9:20, 21, and 23 is: “To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law.” “But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.”

 

The principle here is that we take into account how others feel about and view matters. Knowing how a certain symbol or custom is viewed in our own country or community is very important. Something that is very offensive in our land or culture may be viewed as completely innocent in another land or culture.

 

---------------------------

 

Let's use these for birthdays as an example: 

 

1. Do we think Jehovah would be offended if we participated in a celebration that elevated one person over another, used astrological symbols as part of the celebration (i.e. cake in the shape of a moon/ round with twinkling stars/, making a wish while blowing on those stars/ candles), etc.. 

 

 

2. How would this affect our brothers and sisters - especially ones and the truth for a long time? How will this affect our children and then doing their best to remain no part of this world? If it's a slippery slope to stop a prohibition on toasting, how slippery of a slope would it be to stop a Prohibition on birthdays? Is that really the slippery slope we want to ride down?

 

3. It's not judging to remember that our brothers and sisters who've been in the truth for a very long time would clearly be offended by birthdays. You can count me in as one of those who thinks a celebration set based an astrological time and based on astrology while using astrological symbols and that  the day of one's birth has some significance that needs celebrating! 

 

2 Corinthians 6:17 says "quit touching the unclean thing". We must avoid unclean/spiritistic practices. Jehovah says we have to be holy as he is holy. We wouldn't even want to touch this unholy thing IMO.

 

Edit: seeing these principles tells you this is not just the thing between you and Jehovah. This is a thing that affects the entire congregation and that has to be taken into consideration as well.

 

Thanks. I couldn't have said it any better.

[truce]

1 hour ago, Robinson said:

Just wrote a post on this. This is widely celebrated even amongst those who have native American blood/ancestry in certain regions/localities. Very little has come out about this from the organization in 40 years. And I've found nothing about it in the last 20 years from the organization. It does make me wonder...

Are we suddenly looking for reasons to celebrate things we never did? Have we truly missed out on anything good because we do not partake in such celebrations?

[Amygdala]

Just me, but it would seem strange if at a Witness couple wedding a toast was made to the bride and groom. Whereas if I was at a wedding from worldly relatives, and some decide to toast and see how I react, I would show my support in some way. Every situation is different. Some may reason it‘s the same, but in conscience matters different factors have to be taken into account. This week‘s WT study para.3, the footnote quoted the article on Making Decisions that Honor God, from the April 15, 2011 WT. One of the points listed on there was others can‘t make personal decisions for us. So where training and getting God‘s commands, thoughts and principles on matters are so important. Especially in the area of should I or shouldn‘t I?

[BLEmom]

It almost seems that some feel the desire for many things we don’t do. Every time an understanding is adjusted to allow for something small ie beards, slacks for sisters and now toasting, there is a big discussion of all the things people think we may soon be allowed to do. Things like tattoos, birthdays, thanksgiving and yes even Christmas, etc. 

 

Is there a feeling every day of our standards being too restrictive?  Do we feel hemmed in by what we see as “too many rules”?  Do we have secret desires to be more like the rest of the world?  Do we just want to make all decisions ourselves without having to see what the direction is?
 

These are questions that would be good for self reflection to see why we go to the idea of “maybe we can…next” as soon as a minor adjustment is made. 
 

Instead of looking for how close we can get before we are participating in pagan things, should we not be looking for ways to stay separate from the world so there is a noticeable difference?

[Derrick_m]

4 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

It almost seems that some feel the desire for many things we don’t do. Every time an understanding is adjusted to allow for something small ie beards, slacks for sisters and now toasting, there is a big discussion of all the things people think we may soon be allowed to do. Things like tattoos, birthdays, thanksgiving and yes even Christmas, etc. 

 

Is there a feeling every day of our standards being too restrictive?  Do we feel hemmed in by what we see as “too many rules”?  Do we have secret desires to be more like the rest of the world?  Do we just want to make all decisions ourselves without having to see what the direction is?
 

These are questions that would be good for self reflection to see why we go to the idea of “maybe we can…next” as soon as a minor adjustment is made. 
 

Instead of looking for how close we can get before we are participating in pagan things, should we not be looking for ways to stay separate from the world so there is a noticeable difference?

Are tattoos actually in question? doesn’t get more clear.

 

“You must not make cuts in your flesh for a dead person, and you must not make tattoo markings on yourselves. I am Jehovah.”

 

Although no longer under law, Jehovah’s feelings don’t change. Would making permanent changes to the body show respect for God’s creation?

[jwhess]

Some asked about Thanksgiving customs and background.  Here are some points I gleaned from a few encyclopedias. (these are all quotations).

 

Although Thanksgiving has historical roots in religious and cultural traditions, it has long been celebrated as a secular holiday as well.

The Thanksgiving holiday's history in North America is rooted in English traditions dating from the Protestant Reformation.

Special blessings, viewed as coming from God, called for Days of Thanksgiving, which were observed through Christian church services and other gatherings.

Annual Thanksgiving prayers were dictated by the charter of English settlers upon their safe landing in America in 1619 at Berkeley Hundred in Virginia.

 Thanksgiving proclamations were made mostly by church leaders in New England up until 1682, and then by both state and church leaders until after the American Revolution. During the revolutionary period, political influences affected the issuance of Thanksgiving proclamations. Various proclamations were made by royal governors, and conversely by patriot leaders,

Lincoln set national Thanksgiving by proclamation for the final Thursday in November in celebration of the bounties that had continued to fall on the Union and for the military successes in the war, also calling on the American people, "with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience ... fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation..

Native Americans

It’s important to know that for many Native Americans, Thanksgiving is a day of mourning and protest since it commemorates the arrival of settlers in North America and the centuries of oppression and genocide that followed.

Some Native Americans mourn publicly and openly, while some choose to refrain from participating in this national holiday.

Edited July 6 by jwhess

[Ludwika]

My personal feeling about these adjustments is that, just as the Law was a tutor leading to Christ, we've been under certain "rules" that are being refined more into principles that fit individual circumstances. Why the adjustments now? Again, only my own thoughts, but I think we could be being readied for the GT, when we could find ourselves alone and we have to make decisions for ourselves.

In fact, that's basically what was said: we're being trained to be "grown ups", able to stand firmly in the truth when it's going to matter the most, and we may find ourselves isolated for one reason or another.

[Robinson]

3 hours ago, truce said:

we suddenly looking for reasons to celebrate things we never did? Have we truly missed out on anything good because we do not partake in such celebrations

No. But, I never thought we would get information about certain things that we've been getting. So, not celebrating...just trying to understand. I knew of a witness who celebrated Thanksgiving (an elders wife). She saw nothing wrong with it because she didn't see it as traditions rooted in paganism. She saw it as being with her family and enjoying a meal. Again, is it a conscience thing? Or are we judging people for asking if it's a conscience thing with evolving new light.

Edited July 7 by Robinson

[Dark King]

Good rule of thumb. Ask yourself, would this be in a new system? Can I prepare myself to be in a new system with or without this?

 

Does it pass to whatever scripture?

 

 (Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=50004008&srcid=share

[Bluebell]

toasting and birthdays....both have their origin in pagan rituals

but toasting is now allowed!

 

just saying not advocating birthsdays

Edited July 7 by Bluebell

[franceml]

11 hours ago, Andrey said:

Parece que nos estamos acercando cada vez más a este principio:

 

Que el que come no menosprecie al que no come, y el que no come no juzgue al que come, porque Dios lo ha recibido. — Romanos 14:3 

 

Uno juzga que un día es superior a otro; otro juzga que un día es igual a todos los demás; cada uno esté plenamente convencido en su propia mente.— Romanos 14:5

 

Por tanto, nadie os juzgue por lo que coméis o bebéis, o por la observancia de días de fiesta, de luna nueva o de días de reposo. — Colosenses 2:16

and if you don´t mind I will add this one:

‘You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free’ (John 8:32).

Gradually, the truth is becoming clearer. It is only a matter of time—and of learning to adjust our hearts and minds to it.”