DISCUSS COURT CASE HERE JW.org - Jehovah’s Witnesses Mobilize Global Response to Threat of Ban in Russia

[Omoyeme]

5 hours ago, sunshine said:

[...] any of the other churches to go through the kind of scrutiny our organization is going through... there would be accountants fleeing the country on cargo boats before the summons arrived.  The Vatican would simply refuse to be scrutinized at all. 

So true! A voluminous amount of authoritative publications and a search on YouTube on the egregious acts of the Catholic church - past and modern times - will give one insight on the deception and physical harm brought to their adherents over the centuries. Can you imagine the leadership in Russia of Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, the minority religions, or even the ROC going through extreme scrutiny?  There would be an outcry of such enormous magnitude and the world's major news media would plaster it on their front page every single day in protest.

 

But once more, we are reminded time and again of who REALLY controls the world!  (1 John 5:19).

[Loopy]

2 hours ago, Araujo JW said:

Улица Поварская в Москве (Povarskaya Street in Moscow)

http://dateandtime.info/timedifference.php?id1=524901&id2=4990729

 

AbovevURL is for time difference between Detroit Michigan & Moscow.

just go to dateandtime.info put your city and Moscow (look on the right side of the page)

[timpin]

Day 5 summation   ...  

1)  https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/RFSC-hearing-day-5-20170419/

2)  https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/russia/supreme-court-reviews-jehovahs-witnesses-legal-challenges/

Edited April 19, 2017 by timpin

[Hartley]

8 hours ago, shali said:

Wonder why the court is refusing to watch the video evidence of the literature being planted but will accept the transcipts of the video into evidence?

It was pointed out earlier that this is the subject of a separate appeal.

 

[Cool Cat]

I thought day 5 went very well and so does our organisation. 

 

https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/russia/supreme-court-reviews-jehovahs-witnesses-legal-challenges/

[AH173]

9 hours ago, sunshine said:

SIMPLIFIED Afternoon SESSION

 

14"40  The COURT continues to look at different documents.

 

14"45  The JUDGE point out that the records of the Elders meetings regarding the legal guidelines for the congregation look very similar.  The Brothers respond that's not because the Bethel tells them what to do but because the elders from differrent congregretions talk to each other.

 

JUDGE Anyway do you want me to say all the convictions of the Jehovah's Wtinesses in the past were wrong?  That is not what we are asking you to say.  But you CAN say if all these convictions are relevant to the decision you want to make here or not.

 

15"02 Our Lawyer Master Novakov presents pictures that prove that it was the authorities that planted banned books in our kingdom Halls.  He says its a country wide conspriacy.  We even have proof that one of the people that planted books is friends with someone in authority.   Another conviction was based on false testimony, and we know it was a false testimony because the individual later admitted they had lied (because the Police put pressure on them to).  In another case the courts agreed that literature had been planted.

 

15"20 Our Lawyer Master Topors says "Anyway, the point is since the Russian Branch wasn't even involved in these cases, why are you trying to use them as "evidence" to close the Branch?

 

15"25  The Brothers present documents from various National (Russian) and International organizations appealing to Russia to stop the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

15"42  Their Lawyes AGAIN try and bring up the blood issue.  Our Lawyers say that has nothing to do with this case. Legally refusing blood is not considered "extremist" but a legal right.  Secondly the blood cases you want to include as "evidence" don't even mention the Russian Branch.  Thirdly medical records are confidential and you can't just present the conclusion you'd have to also present the medical history.  AND in none of the cases did the parent refuse alternative medical treatement.

 

Finally our Lawyer Zhenkov points out that certain practices of the Russian Orthodox and Muslim community can be considered dangerous for a person's health but you don't see the MoJ calling for Islam to be liquidated do you?!

 

THE JUDGE:  Okay listen we aren't going to include any of those blood cases. 

 

16"22 Their Lawyers want to include an "internal document" obtained by the TV Journalist, dealing (presumably) with the use of donations.  The JUDGE Allows that document to be included.

 

16"35  The MoJ (returning to the issue that congregations are legal "branches" of the Bethel) says "Your HQ decides who the head of the local congregational associations are".  The Brothers point out the Bethel makes "recommendations" not "orders".

 

16"40  The MoJ (Them) wants the judge to look at the list of all the property owned by the Russian Branch and the local congregations.

 

SHORT BREAK

 

 

 

9 hours ago, sunshine said:

 

SIMPLIFIED VERSION:  19 April Evening.

 

 

17"11 [Afer a short break]  Regarding the list of Property "owned" by the Russian Branch and the local congregations the Brothers explain, its not up-to-date.  The JUDGE says no matter we'll include the list.

 

17"16  THE JUDGE  (returning to the question of whether the congregations are Bethel "Branches") asks to see the guidelines for the associations provided by the Bethel.   The Brothers give the judge a copy and point out that nowhere does it use the words "Sub-division" or "branch" for the congregations.  That they are associated by faith in a religious not a legal structure.

 

The JUDGE confirms he won' t be looking at any video footage.

 

17"29 End of Court for today.

 

 

BACK 20 APRIL 2017

 

10 hours ago, sunshine said:

SIMPLIFIED VERSION:  Wednesday Morning Session

 

10"05 Our Lawyer begins by drawing attention to all the times Russian authorities have burst into our Kingdom Halls, breaking up our meetings for questioning and issuing warnings against their bible study.

 

10"15 Their Lawyers (Ministry of Justice=MoJ) wants the court to examine new documents they have dug up, still trying to prove the congregations are "branches" of the Bethel Russia HeadQuarters.  The brothers object to this "evidence", pointing out some of these documents date from 1998 the Bethel wasn't even registered under present laws.  The Brothers point out these documents were just so that the congregation's were legally in order.  The Judge accepts to examine the documents but not those that are really old (before 1998)

 

10"25  The first of these documents is the MoJ (Their Lawyers) again asking that the Russian Branch and all the congregations be banned.  The Judge asks if they have any new information to go with these "new documents" to justify doing this.  They have nothing.  Our Laywers point out that some of the property listed on the documents don't even belong to the Russian Branch.

 

-  Next they examine the document "The Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses" and highlights the part that says we are told to be tolerant and show love for other people. The part that says we value giving our children an good education was also read aloud.

 

-  Next they look at the Branch Guidelines (?) and ask about the various congregations in Russia.  The Judge wants to know how many  JWs "unregistered" congregations or groups are there.  The brothers explain that the forming of a congregation is a spiritual not a legal matter and under Russian law religion and State are separate. The brothers don't keep legal documentation about congregations or groups, so they cannot give the Judge any more information on that question.

 

11"00 [After a short break]  The Court looks at various convictions against the Witnesses, including the famous case of the Taganrog congregation.  The accusations were that the Witnesses don't take blood, criticize other religions and don't perform their civic duties (join the army).  The brothers point out that this conviction was made before the law was changed that said that criticising religion cannot be considered "extremist".   They also point out that the books and brochures considered "extremist" in this case had nothing whatsoever "extremist" about them.  For example in the Brochure "Jehovah's Witnesses: Who are they"  they said it was "extremist" to say  "We do not take up arms" (join the army).

 

11"10  Our brothers point out that in many of the cases against the JWs congregations, the Russian Branch wasn't even mentioned, so how can the MoJ (Their Lawyers) be using these convictions against the Bethel (Russian Branch)?  And besides, some of those convictions were overturned (struck down) by  higher courts in Russia.

 

Next they look at the MoJ accusation that the Bethel were hiding information and secretly importing banned literature.  The Brothers point out that the Bethel gave the authority, the only information not provided was that which should come from the customs authorities not the brothers.

 

11"30 The MoJ says "Yes, but you didn't tell us about all your congregations" The Brothers respond, "We don't have to, that's a spiritual not a legal matter".

 

The JUDGE notices in the documents there is the Business report of the Bethel (what they do with their money).  The Judge wants do know why they included this.  The MoJ says "Because they might be using their money to to help extremists"  The Judge asks "Do you have any proof that the money may be used for extremist goals rather than perfectly legal one" The MoJ has no proof. Our Lawyer (Master Tapor (?)) says "Listen we had a full audit, everything was checked and found to be perfectly legal so why are these documents in there?" 

 

Our Lawyer Master Omelchenko adds "You say we might be funding "extremist": Can you provide the court with details:  How much money? Who did we give it to? When did we give this money? etc.  The MoJ says "Er well, no we don't have any such information.

 

11"45 The Brothers note in their documents they have a list of the property of Brothers and Sisters.  The Brothers ask why did you include this information.  Answer:  So if you are found guilty (as we hope) we can go ahead and take their houses.

 

11"50  The Court looks at letters and documents from authorities saying Thank you to the Witnesses for the good work they do in the community.  Their Lawyers says "Yeah well that's just a cover for your "missionary work".  Our Lawyers respond "Ok so when we give money to the congregations its "extremists" and when those same congregations help their communities is some kind of "dirty trick".  How can it be both?

 

11"55 Our Lawyer Master Zhenkov next shows that it was the same Ministry of Justice experts who in 1999 examined the Jehovah's Witnesses and said they could be recognized as a legal religion.  Are you now saying YOUR experts got it all wrong?

 

12"00  The brothers then point out the many many volumes of 70 experts that testify that Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT extremists.  For example one expert said  he found nothing wrong with our book "Mankind's Search for God" but it was banned nonetheless.  The MoJ responds, "Yes those experts are just giving their personal opinions"  Our Lawyer Master Omelchenko comes right back "That is incorrect, these experts were giving testifying as requested by courts, police and customs authorities"

 

12"15 Our Lawyers point to the terrible injustices that have been committed against the brothers.  Many of whom were put in jail for years only for the courts to later find them innocent and release them.  And now those same brothers and sisters risk going through the same thing again.

 

- Next our Lawyer Novekov points out the planting of banned literature in Kingdom Halls;  he gives the example of this happening in November 2016 which was even recorded by the security cameras.  

 

- Our Lawyer points out the that MoJ did nothing but rubber stamp (approve without examination) the claims of "extremist literature" whereever it came from in the country.

 

12"25 Their Lawyers bring up the blood issue.  The brothers point out that the ECHR (The Highest court in Europe) has fully examined the cases being brought up and that court found that no crime had been committed.  People have the legal right to refuse blood transfusions if they wish.

 

12"45  The Brothes point out the double standard when it comes to so-called "extremist" literature; we are not given a chance to defend ourselves when one of our books is declared "extremist" and once they are banned, our opposers  use those books  to try and close the Bethel.

 

13"00  The Brothers ask the Judge if he will accept to look at Video recordings that prove that the authorities planted banned literature in our Halls.  They give the example of a "plant" in Leznobloye.   The JUDGE wants to know, did you appeal the decision.   Our Lawyers:  We did, yes but no one will listen to us.  The JUDGE accepts to look at the evidence(the paperwork) but not the video recordings.  There's a lot of material (43 volumes)

 

The brothers read a statment that they are not extremist posted on the new JW-org Russian site (the old jw.org site was banned by the authorities).  The Court now knows that the Watchtower society owns this new site (www.jw-russia.org).

 

13"30 The Court examines more documents about the congregations.  Nothing proving anything illegal has been done by them.  Their Lawyers want to add the various police warnings that the congregations were given.

 

BREAK FOR LUNCH 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the 'simplified' points. This is what I really need and appreciate. Please keep it up.

 

[PhorosM]

 Thanks to all who are keeping us updated!

[sand]

Hello everyone. A big thank you for the recap of the day.
I found this article this morning, I hope it is true!

http://tass.com/world/942174

[Life4u]

Today for me is 3:16 am April 20th, 2017.

 

What time is 17:00 for  Russia  when the case starts?  What time will it be central time in USA? 

 

Thanks in advance.  I appreciate the work y'all are doing to keep us notified  to the case.

[sand]

hi loving life, it starts in 3hours and half

[Life4u]

21 minutes ago, loving life said:

Today for me is 3:16 am April 20th, 2017.

 

What time is 17:00 for  Russia  when the case starts?  What time will it be central time in USA? 

 

Thanks in advance.  I appreciate the work y'all are doing to keep us notified  to the case.

According to my calculations it will be 5:00 pm/17:00 in Moscow, Russia and 9:00 am central time in USA.?

[Sheep]

10 hours ago, Linda Hoy said:

http://dateandtime.info/timedifference.php?id1=524901&id2=4990729

 

AbovevURL is for time difference between Detroit Michigan & Moscow.

just go to dateandtime.info put your city and Moscow (look on the right side of the page)

The above is not the same URL I used in my original post. I'm not sure how it got changed. It was this one that I used. It is not set to any particular time zone, and so shouldn't make a difference. (That is, according to what I see on my computer.)

[timpin]

22 hours ago, timpin said:

while our case in Russia going on -  later today another government shows its "interest" in religion too   ...   http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/supreme-court-scheduled-hear-important-freedom-religion-dispute-n746746?cid=par-xfinity_20170419   ...   "one of the most important legal battles in decades over the separation of church and state"

 

did anyone find out any further ^ info ^ on this ?   

 

 

The Court will resume hearings on April 20, 2017, at 2:00 p.m.  (7AM US East coast time)     ...   https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://jw-russia.org/news/17040510-129.html 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by timpin

[campanula]

I did a quick search on the name of the representative of Ministry of justice Светлана Контстантиновна Борисова and here what I've found  http://www.muslim.ru/articles/288/16261/

It's a muslim website and she was lecturing muslim leaders.
I would like to look into her eyes, really.

[Dages]

It's about to begin.

Pray for them.

[Victoria]

7 hours ago, campanula said:

I did a quick search on the name of the representative of Ministry of justice Светлана Контстантиновна Борисова and here what I've found  http://www.muslim.ru/articles/288/16261/

It's a muslim website and she was lecturing muslim leaders.
I would like to look into her eyes, really.

I saw her but did not look into her eyes:-) But I was able to look into the eyes of the man who planted banned books in our hall.

[campanula]

Just now, Victoria said:

But I was able to look into the eyes of the man who planted banned books in our hall.

I too had that same privilege.... 

[Bluebell]

13:15   The courtroom of the Supreme Court gradually filled with students. There could hardly contain the excitement.

 

13:50    Most of the seats in the hall already occupied.

[DinaG.]

10 minutes ago, campanula said:

I too had that same privilege.... 

I had a chance to present in a court when a case regarding banning LRO in my city Tiraspol was held. It is unforgettable. 

[Dages]

13:15	The courtroom of the Supreme Court is gradually filled with listeners. Feelings of difficulty with restrained excitement. The parties are deliberately preparing to speak in the debate.
13:50	Most of the seats in the hall are already occupied.

[Alexa]

Two posters are better than yesterday, keep it up brother David and sister Samira  

[Vinnie]

What is the response of most people in Russia in the ministry? Are they easily open to discussion or are they fearful and cautious ?

[sand]

Thank you very much Samira and David, your work allows me to understand better because the French translation is not really good!

[hatcheckgirl]

https://jw-russia.org/pages/17040614-132.html#0420

(I open it in chrome and it auto translates)

[Alexa]

14:09 Hearings begin. Omelchenko declares a short petition on the attachment of the European Union statement on the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia. In it, the European Union says that "the statement of March 15, filed by the Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation in the Supreme Court, is the last severe measure taken in the fight against Jehovah's Witnesses and the further increase in violations of their rights and prosecutions they are subjected to in Russia, that Contradicts international standards in the field of freedom of religion or belief. " The court clarifies how this statement can affect the outcome of today's hearing. Omelchenko says that this is evidence of a violation of Art. 18 of the European Convention. Although the European Union is not a body of the Council of Europe, it is made at a meeting of the Council of Europe. The court refuses to attach the document.

14:15 The court proceeds to debate. Statement by the representative of the Ministry of Justice.

14:16 The Ministry of Justice draws attention to the fact that Russia adheres to the principle of the rule of law. The law on freedom of conscience provides a framework. The Ministry of Justice draws attention to the fact that the very name of the Center, the "Administrative Center for Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia," indicates that the centralized organization exercises control over the LROs. The Ministry of Justice draws attention to the leading role of the CA in interaction with the MPO. The UC agrees on the issues related to the appointment of the chairmen of the LROs, etc. Organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses are a holistic organism. They are characterized by organizational unity. References to the canonical connection of the Ministry of Justice are inconclusive.

14:25 According to the representative of the Ministry of Justice, the fact that the defendant continues to declare about the landings shows that the UC does not repent of extremist activity.

14:28 Representative of the Ministry of Justice: although many religions express this or that attitude to secular authorities, the texts of Jehovah's Witnesses contain impermissible insulting ways of expressing the truth of their beliefs. Extremists recognize not the quotation of the Bible, but the interpretation of what is written in the Bible.