Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Stormswift]

1 hour ago, New World Explorer said:

Proclamation would demand certain types of achievements accomplished, for example. Yes we have solved this war and that one … proclamation feels more defined than saying, talking, discussing. I have always meditated on the scripture why it is worded as “saying” rather than statement in line of proclamation. Perhaps… perhaps… hmmm, there will be surprise in that regard. 

Either way only time will tell.

The word 'saying' has always intrigued me too then they go stick an exlamation mark at the end ... so perhaps it's more an emphatic talking or urging. Which they and many people are doing,

Other aspects I've been looking at are another two comments I've heard in talks: 

'We won't complete the circuit'

'It will happen at the height of our preaching work' 

Does anyone remember those? Might look at that new tool the SCL and see if i can marry those up with scripture/FDS.

Not that it really matters ... the end of the matter will be the end when Jehovah say the end ... but intriguing nonetheless. 

[Stormswift]

1 hour ago, Sofia said:

According to the Bible hub:

 Contemporary English Version
People will think they are safe and secure. But destruction will suddenly strike them like the pains of a woman about to give birth. And they won't escape

So could be publicly leading in the direction of a profound proclamation laced with propaganda (this we know) and the verge of being passed when sudden destruction occurs? Interesting thanks for this post. More options to pop onto the table until we know for sure.

Nice to meet you BTW. ❤️ 

[hatcheckgirl]

2 hours ago, Sofia said:

According to the Bible hub:

 Contemporary English Version
People will think they are safe and secure. But destruction will suddenly strike them like the pains of a woman about to give birth. And they won't escape

 

The grammar is intriguing. I had to look it up, of course, but the word we translate as “saying” is in the “present subjunctive active” mood. 

 

Quote

The subjunctive mood primarily refers to HYPOTHETICAL actions in the PRESENT or FUTURE, i.e., in the same time covered by the PRIMARY tenses of verbs. There are only three tenses of the subjunctive, each of which expresses ASPECT, not time:

PRESENT

ongoing aspect

https://pressbooks.pub/ancientgreek/chapter/46/

So it’s a hypothetical or “wish”, not a reality, and it’s ongoing. It’s a lie.

 

WT Sep 2019 in the research guide for 1 Thes 5:3 says “Why will world leaders say that? Will religious leaders participate? Possibly. Nevertheless, the proclamation will be just another demon-inspired lie. But this lie will be especially dangerous because it will give people a false sense of security just before the greatest tribulation in human history begins.”

[Stormswift]

That's right the scriptures say the saying or proclamation will mislead even the holy ones ... so it must seem substantial even though in reality it's a thin veneer.

We in for some surprises I think ... and soon. Safety belts on beloved ones.

[Sofia]

1 hour ago, Stormswift said:

So could be publicly leading in the direction of a profound proclamation laced with propaganda (this we know) and the verge of being passed when sudden destruction occurs? Interesting thanks for this post. More options to pop onto the table until we know for sure.

Nice to meet you BTW. ❤️ 

You are welcome 🤗💖

[Cushi]

12 hours ago, truce said:

Could easily be days or weeks or just one day, all according to God's timetable.

I couldn’t imagine having to eat or go to bed while Armageddon is going on lol

Just now, *Jack* said:

Edited October 23, 2023 by *Jack*

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, *Jack* said:

I couldn’t imagine having to eat or go to bed while Armageddon is going on lol

Great Tribulation length - unspecified. 

In contrast: 

Armageddon is basically execution, and it's gonna be very swift. Jehovah has enough angles to position them around the world and give command to act  at once. Jehovah does not take pleasure to see suffering of those executed, therefore its logical to conclude that the length of Armageddon will be very short. 

 

[truce]

15 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

Great Tribulation length - unspecified. 

In contrast: 

Armageddon is basically execution, and it's gonna be very swift. Jehovah has enough angles to position them around the world and give command to act  at once. Jehovah does not take pleasure to see suffering of those executed, therefore its logical to conclude that the length of Armageddon will be very short. 

 

While the flood lasted 40 days and nights, the destruction  of Sodom seems to have taken place "in one day". I agree with you. It doesn't seem that Armageddon will be an unnecessarily prolonged event. Anyways, to follow a recent pattern: "We just don't know. It's above our pay grade." Or, is it? 😁

[New World Explorer]

22 minutes ago, truce said:

While the flood lasted 40 days and nights

Not the execution though, all wicked perished relatively quickly as the waters kept increasing. 

I was thinking of Hezekiah video, where Jehovah's angel destroys whole Assyrian army in 2-3 sec. (remember dramatization?) “It came about on that night that the angel of Jehovah proceeded to go out and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians.” (2 Ki. 19:35)

[sis little]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:42 PM, Pjdriver said:

Perhaps when it all comes to a head (soon I hope) , they will claim P & S. 

 

 

probably

 

 

 

I think so, but continues to pray for what I need.

[Stormswift]

The secret is ... treating it as if it will calm and things go back to a new normal like covid, BUT be prepared in case it doesn't. One of these incidents in the near future will be the first domino.

I, personally, wouldn't be surprised if a long line of dominoes are being set up with recent events.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Stormswift

[Stormswift]

1 hour ago, New World Explorer said:

Great Tribulation length - unspecified. 

In contrast: 

Jehovah has enough angles 

 

You know what doesn't have angles until it's cut? 

 

Answer: see if you know. Hint: US _ _ _ _ _  - boy or UK _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -boy

Edited October 23, 2023 by Stormswift

[Abigail]

7 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

WT Sep 2019 in the research guide for 1 Thes 5:3 says “Why will world leaders say that? Will religious leaders participate? Possibly. Nevertheless, the proclamation will be just another demon-inspired lie. But this lie will be especially dangerous because it will give people a false sense of security just before the greatest tribulation in human history begins.”

 

I really struggle with this. Yes the proclamation may be demon inspired, but the timing cannot be. Timing is all down to Jehovah alone. This announcement (if it is a single announcement) is the trigger for the Great Tribulation. So, does Jehovah push the demons to inspire men? The demons wouldn't deliberately start the Great Tribulation, they can't ... ultimately it comes back to Jehovah.

 

I also wonder if Revelation 16:13-16 even applies to the cry. There is no mention of Babylon the Great or the harlot. It only talks about the dragon, the wild beast and the false prophet, and Armageddon. Has Babylon the Great already been destroyed at this point, and is this the attack of Gog?

[Pjdriver]

Just musing..... but the nations have been saying “Peace and Security” ever since I can recall. They have declared certain years as Peace and security, some years back, many different religious leaders even came together to pray for peace.

 

This current conflict involves strong religious differences as with many wars and conflicts. Terrorism comes mostly from religious radicals. Why couldn’t the destruction of BTG happen first and then P&S when religion has been eradicated,  and then “suddenly and “instantly”....  armageddon". What exactly makes that not a possibility ? 

 

 

When the verse says: P&S, then "Sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them” Those terms “suddenly" and “instantly" are  relative terms. BTG will fall in “One hour”, again it’s relative. We really don’t know how long the GT will last. only that it will not be very long. And Paul never mentions 2 judgements in a short time (BTG and Armageddon), he just mentions one destruction. 

 

The Revelation says the beast will turn on her and destroy her.  What exactly does that mean? 

 

I don’t think it means going from door to door and killing all members of a false region. However it likely means destroying the religious organizations. Now we see a trend that way, with more and more anti-religious sentiment in formerly religious strongholds in the west. In the east the Islamic terror groups must be stopped during the destruction of BTG.....that being said it seems plausible that governments could turn on religion and then claim 'we have eradicated the problem and now we can have peace.’  But we’re still preaching and now they are determined to eradicate us, but surprise....."sudden destruction”. 

 

I may be  wrong and I probably am wrong.....but  it will all happen one way or another for sure. 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Pjdriver

[truce]

46 minutes ago, Abigail said:

 

I really struggle with this. Yes the proclamation may be demon inspired, but the timing cannot be. Timing is all down to Jehovah alone. This announcement (if it is a single announcement) is the trigger for the Great Tribulation. So, does Jehovah push the demons to inspire men? The demons wouldn't deliberately start the Great Tribulation, they can't ... ultimately it comes back to Jehovah.

 

I also wonder if Revelation 16:13-16 even applies to the cry. There is no mention of Babylon the Great or the harlot. It only talks about the dragon, the wild beast and the false prophet, and Armageddon. Has Babylon the Great already been destroyed at this point, and is this the attack of Gog?

At the point of Rev 16:13-16, BTG has already been destroyed. Gog is attacking God's people and ranging himself in a situation that brings him into direct conflict with the Creator. (Zec. 2:8)

[Abigail]

1 hour ago, truce said:

At the point of Rev 16:13-16, BTG has already been destroyed. Gog is attacking God's people and ranging himself in a situation that brings him into direct conflict with the Creator. (Zec. 2:8)

 

That's what I think but other articles and videos say otherwise.

Particularly from 3 minutes on.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtMorningWorship/pub-jwb_201802_12_VIDEO

and this article para 8

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-september-2019/armageddon-is-good-news/

I don't have a problem with most of the claims humans make being demon-inspired, just not the one that triggers the Great Tribulation. It just does not make sense to me.

[Paulo]

I also consider the possibility of Paulo doing a quotation of another well known prophecy, instead of making himself a new prophecy.
In this case "they" would be two very well known "persons", and the possibility of it beeing just already fulfilled would be very high.

[Abigail]

3 minutes ago, Paulo said:

I also consider the possibility of Paulo doing a quotation of another well known prophecy, instead of making himself a new prophecy.
In this case "they" would be two very well known "persons", and the possibility of it beeing just already fulfilled would be very high.

 

Please could you explain brother

[Abigail]

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&bible=27008025&pub=nwtsty

 

I also wonder if this verse in Daniel could be prophetically referring to a cry of peace in the future ...

[truce]

7 minutes ago, Abigail said:

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&bible=27008025&pub=nwtsty

 

I also wonder if this verse in Daniel could be prophetically referring to a cry of peace in the future ...

Nice find. 

[Sofia]

17 minutes ago, Paulo said:

I also consider the possibility of Paulo doing a quotation of another well known prophecy, instead of making himself a new prophecy.
In this case "they" would be two very well known "persons", and the possibility of it beeing just already fulfilled would be very high.

Wellcome back Paulo, we missed you here  

[Abigail]

15 minutes ago, truce said:

Nice find. 

 

It's thanks to the 2013 translation. 

[Paulo]

21 minutes ago, Abigail said:

 

Please could you explain brother

I entertain the possibility that Paulo is quoting Daniel 8:25 and 11:24.

(Coincidentally in both texts the word security is now used, while in the originals the word peace seems to be used)

 

That also opens the possibility that this frames the occurrence in a period starting in 1989, officially proclaimed by both kings in January 1st 1991 and ending, also by both kings, in December 31, 2021.

 

[Sofia]

11 minutes ago, Abigail said:

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&bible=27008025&pub=nwtsty

 

I also wonder if this verse in Daniel could be prophetically referring to a cry of peace in the future ...

Interesting, because I ve been thinking about that text too lately  

The cross note says: Or possibly, “and without warning.” = "during a time of security"

 

[Ysaias]

1 hour ago, Abigail said:

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&bible=27008025&pub=nwtsty

 

I also wonder if this verse in Daniel could be prophetically referring to a cry of peace in the future ...

Very interesting indeed!

 

The reference in the it-2 says that words in Daniel 8:23-25 may refer to either “the king of the north” and “the king of the south” in his “time of the end.” Comparing with the parallel prophecy in Daniel 11:44, 45, would it be "the king of the north"? If so, we may be on the verge!

 

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200004409&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=5

 

Oh, how I love prophecies, history written ahead of time! Thank-you so much, Jehovah.