Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Richie]

I've seen several points on this forum that need greater consideration and they are well noted. 

 

Anyway, we are now in unprecedented times that hard to deal with. Currenly, we have major conflicts that batter the whole world. We cannot escape the effects of climate change that may change the peoples lives. We hear lots of social issues that may lead to social unrest. We cannot ignore human right issues that challenge the religious institutions. All of these challenge us to connect directly to what we already learned. Some of us plainly tell the basic word of prophecy but some look beyond. Whatever reasons we have. These are the products of Jehovah's love and mercy. In the end, may be we surprise that we do not expect today may become the fulfillment of the future. Today, just keep the words in our hearts. And hope these words excite us to do the best for Jehovah. 

 

 

[hatcheckgirl]

I’ve been reading Rev chp 16 again. The verses regarding the propaganda from the demons that is inspiring the nations to oppose Jehovah has been intensifying since 1914, particularly when the 6 bowls started to be poured in judgement from 1922. So it has been ongoing.

 

The Research guide, quoting Revelation book and othe WTs says:

Quote

16:13-16. “Unclean inspired expressions” symbolize demonic propaganda intended to ensure that the kings of the earth are not swayed by the pouring out of the seven bowls of God’s anger but instead are maneuvered into opposition to Jehovah.—Matt. 24:42, 44. WT Feb 15 2009

And the talk Survive the Great Day, by Bro Schafer, had this point:

Quote

'They' from vs 13, the expressions from dragon, wild beast, false prophet. Compelling because all kings involved.
Inspired by demons. Originating from Satan.
Who gives voice to expressions, political entities of Satan’s world.

Deceiving the world that humans can actually get peace and security. Signs seem like expressions are coming true, may even seem to have backing of God. Ex, miracles in Pharoah's day. (My notes from talk)

So Since the time Satan has been thrown to the earth, he knows his time is short. So he is giving it his all to “gather”, to manoeuvre the nations into opposition to Jehovah. We can see this blatantly, as the 6 bowls of judgements have been poured simultaneously on all elements of Satan's system.

 

But what is interesting is vs 17 when the 7th bowl is poured.  “It has come to pass”. The Research guide says “When the contents of the bowls of God’s anger have been publicized to Jehovah’s satisfaction, there will be no delay in his executing the judgments proclaimed by these messages.”

 

So, it is back to the good news being preached, as judgement messages to the world opposed (and life giving to others for now). The judgements (bowls poured) inflame the nations, while Satanic propaganda creates scenarios to convince humans they are going to be able to save themselves.

 

It is when this tipping point is reached (which is hidden from us, we just have to stay awake and keep our identity) that the nations will suffer from the 7th bowl effects, triggering the collapse of false religion, followed by the total collapse of Satans earthly system.

 

Those hooks mentioned earlier, is Jehovah goading Satan to attack us, which the nations under his control will do, just before their total destruction - Eze chp 38, vs 4 in particular.

 

Hey, we know all this. I just wanted to give a brief summary of what we do know so far. Carry on 😁

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

 

Who said "clean"?

I said perhaps... because clean energy would be significant achievement worthy of notice.  

 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Doug said:

 

But, P&S is of Satan.   Not despite Satan.

 

My question is;  How can Satan know the right time to cause this prophesy of a demonic lie to be fulfilled?   Is it Jehovah who puts the hook into his jaws and drags him into it?  Does he (Satan) have any choice in the matter?  

 

I think it will be a natural reaction on Satan's part to world conditions. It's like when Satan tried to kill Jesus as a baby. That was also prophesied, and so was the failure. Did Satan have to "know the right time" to try to kill Jesus as if he were supporting the fulfillment of Jehovah's Word? No. Killing Jesus was just one tactic of many that Satan used in his overarching plan to thwart God and this was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. For whatever reason he still tried to kill Jesus despite knowing the prophecy that it would fail. I'll leave others to speculate why.

 

I think P&S will be similar. In some way Satan is going to use P&S to further his own plans, not because he has some part to play. Jehovah has already spent thousands of years tweaking things so that the exact world conditions needed to push Satan to make the cry would arise at the right time. Satan doesn't need to be told when to act anymore than a person needs to be told to let go of a burning pan - it will happen instinctively.

 

Personally, I think Satan loves BtG more than anything else because I believe his primary goal is to defame Jehovah and nothing does that better than false worship. Since he knows that BtG is prophesied to be destroyed (but we also know that that has never stopped his prior attempts) I think the cry of P&S will be his attempt to keep BtG alive.

 

Maybe world conditions will get so hostile toward religions that in order to keep it going he will try to bring about some kind of peace involving religions. This could be in the form of a summit where representatives from all major religions vow to achieve peace (by whatever means). Maybe it appears realistic enough that people buy it, but we will know better. Then Jehovah steps in and forces the "one thought" - Satan's precious BtG gets destroyed despite his best efforts to keep it. 

[Sweet Tooth]

1 hour ago, Richie said:

I've seen several points on this forum that need greater consideration and they are well noted. 

Perhaps you could enumerate them for our benefit? Thank you! 

[Dhanyel]

Reference that is in our Bible in the text of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 

I'm just leaving it here for research, I'm not using it as an answer for anyone, but it's good to read it again. 

 

Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape

 

Sudden destruction is to be instantly on them: Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of “peace and security” and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry. It will be sudden and inescapable. The Greek phrase contains two terms (rendered “sudden” and “be instantly on”) to emphasize the striking suddenness with which the destruction will come. A similar combination of terms appears at Lu 21:34, where the coming of Jehovah’s day is described.

just like birth pains on a pregnant woman: Labor pains come suddenly; there is no way of foreknowing the exact day and hour. However, Paul’s metaphor stresses the suddenness and inevitability of the coming destruction. Once labor pains begin, a woman knows that an unstoppable process has begun.—Compare study note on Mt 24:8.

they will by no means escape: Paul here uses two negatives (lit., “not not escape”) to emphasize that it will be impossible for the wicked to escape the “sudden destruction” that will come “instantly on them.”

cPs 37:10; Jer 8:11

[Doug]

2 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

Edit: PURE SPECULATION TO FOLLOW:

 

I recently had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine that I know who is anointed. And we were discussing whether it's obvious from the spirit realm who is and who isn't anointed. If that was the case, he would know how many are left, they're ages, their health situation, and their economic and financial situation. Knowing what he knows about people - it wouldn't be hard for him to know how close we are. I bet he's kept track of the number.

 

I don't read this as speculation.  Christ's brothers have always been a special target of Satan.  With millions of his spirit agents infesting the planet, reporting to him, I can't imagine that he doesn't know who were partaking in 1992 and how many of that generation are still alive on earth.

 

Possibly he doesn't know the exact meaning of Jesus words "by no means pass away" until all these things happen.  But he has enough information to have a good idea of how little time remains "until all these things happen".

[Richie]

51 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said:

Perhaps you could enumerate them for our benefit? Thank you! 

They are good to discuss in private talk while in siesta😂

[Doug]

2 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

As to the dragging with a hook - that is a specific prophecy about Gog (not Satan) and his attack on us at Armageddon. 

 

Gog and Pharaoh  (Ezekiel 29)   But no mention of Satan in this regard.

[feebee]

3 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

I think it will be a natural reaction on Satan's part to world conditions. It's like when Satan tried to kill Jesus as a baby. That was also prophesied, and so was the failure. Did Satan have to "know the right time" to try to kill Jesus as if he were supporting the fulfillment of Jehovah's Word? No. Killing Jesus was just one tactic of many that Satan used in his overarching plan to thwart God and this was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. For whatever reason he still tried to kill Jesus despite knowing the prophecy that it would fail. I'll leave others to speculate why.

 

I think P&S will be similar. In some way Satan is going to use P&S to further his own plans, not because he has some part to play. Jehovah has already spent thousands of years tweaking things so that the exact world conditions needed to push Satan to make the cry would arise at the right time. Satan doesn't need to be told when to act anymore than a person needs to be told to let go of a burning pan - it will happen instinctively.

 

Personally, I think Satan loves BtG more than anything else because I believe his primary goal is to defame Jehovah and nothing does that better than false worship. Since he knows that BtG is prophesied to be destroyed (but we also know that that has never stopped his prior attempts) I think the cry of P&S will be his attempt to keep BtG alive.

 

Maybe world conditions will get so hostile toward religions that in order to keep it going he will try to bring about some kind of peace involving religions. This could be in the form of a summit where representatives from all major religions vow to achieve peace (by whatever means). Maybe it appears realistic enough that people buy it, but we will know better. Then Jehovah steps in and forces the "one thought" - Satan's precious BtG gets destroyed despite his best efforts to keep it. 

So Satan tried many times to kill Jesus but it wasn't until Jehovah allowed him to do so, at his appointed time, that he succeeded. Maybe Satan has already tried to declare P&S on a number of occasions eg 1986 year of peace, other peace summits etc but he can try all he wants, because it wasn't Jehovah’s appointed time. Jehovah is in full control and if Satan has his human agents call P&S and its the one we're waiting for, it's only because it's Jehovah’s time.

[New World Explorer]

High speculation... enter at you own risk! LOL 🤣 (you've been warned) 

 

What if...? 

What if Satan does not know all the details from the Bible? 

What if Jehovah blinded Satan and demons from knowing all tiny details regarding the end? 

Namely ... when prophecy of Peace and Security is discussed.. this is just a blank page to him and his demons. 

It's like "muted" profanity with bleep ... he is like that prevented from knowing anything. 

Based on that he wouldn't have access to this topic or any material on jw.org

Is is possible that Satan and demons are on certain censorship/ban from Jehovah? 

Yes he knew prophecies regarding Jesus, but after the ransom was paid could Jehovah ban Satan from knowing more...?

 

Otherwise is absolutely stupid for him to go for PS knowing that destruction of BTG follows immediately .. something does not add up. (if he does not know everything, PS could be a trap for him) 

 

I understand that this is a high speculation... but hey worth considering/speculating 🤣 😉

[Richie]

1 hour ago, feebee said:

Satan tried many times to kill Jesus

Satan didn't understand this prophecy until he realized that he fulfilled the prophecy. If P&S has the same scenario, Satan didn't have any idea when and where this prophecy be happened. Or else, he wouldn't let it be happened if it is in his control. He understands well that every words from the Scriptures are true and be fullfilled even it means his life. 

[JennyM]

6 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

This is actually a great question... How could he know?

 

As to the dragging with a hook - that is a specific prophecy about Gog (not Satan) and his attack on us at Armageddon. He is drug by rage at seeing we are all standing in peace. Note: I can picture the Devil in the invisible realm screaming, "NO!" - as he knows that is the END.

 

 

How could he know?

 

Edit: PURE SPECULATION TO FOLLOW:

 

I recently had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine that I know who is anointed. And we were discussing whether it's obvious from the spirit realm who is and who isn't anointed. Like, if Jehovah's holy spirit is active on a person it would show in some way? And if it did, then the devil would know for sure who the anointed are and which ones he actually is attacking the most - per Revelation 12:17. If that was the case, he would know how many are left, they're ages, their health situation, and their economic and financial situation. Knowing what he knows about people - it wouldn't be hard for him to know how close we are. I bet he's kept track of the number.

Will he just  consider the 2nd generation of the anointed?

[LeolaRootStew]

2 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

Otherwise is absolutely stupid for him to go for PS knowing that destruction of BTG follows immediately .. something does not add up. (if he does not know everything, PS could be a trap for him) 

 

please see my previous comment. I think the cry of P&S will benefit Satan in some way, but Jehovah interferes.

 

7 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

I think it will be a natural reaction on Satan's part to world conditions. It's like when Satan tried to kill Jesus as a baby. That was also prophesied, and so was the failure. Did Satan have to "know the right time" to try to kill Jesus as if he were supporting the fulfillment of Jehovah's Word? No. Killing Jesus was just one tactic of many that Satan used in his overarching plan to thwart God and this was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. For whatever reason he still tried to kill Jesus despite knowing the prophecy that it would fail. I'll leave others to speculate why.

 

I think P&S will be similar. In some way Satan is going to use P&S to further his own plans, not because he has some part to play. Jehovah has already spent thousands of years tweaking things so that the exact world conditions needed to push Satan to make the cry would arise at the right time. Satan doesn't need to be told when to act anymore than a person needs to be told to let go of a burning pan - it will happen instinctively.

 

Personally, I think Satan loves BtG more than anything else because I believe his primary goal is to defame Jehovah and nothing does that better than false worship. Since he knows that BtG is prophesied to be destroyed (but we also know that that has never stopped his prior attempts) I think the cry of P&S will be his attempt to keep BtG alive.

 

Maybe world conditions will get so hostile toward religions that in order to keep it going he will try to bring about some kind of peace involving religions. This could be in the form of a summit where representatives from all major religions vow to achieve peace (by whatever means). Maybe it appears realistic enough that people buy it, but we will know better. Then Jehovah steps in and forces the "one thought" - Satan's precious BtG gets destroyed despite his best efforts to keep it. 

 

 

[IceBreeze]

3 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I think it will be a natural reaction on Satan's part to world conditions

Makes me wonder what is natural on him? 😉

[Dolce vita]

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

veuillez voir mon commentaire précédent. Je pense que le cri de P&S profitera à Satan d’une manière ou d’une autre, mais Jéhovah interfère.

 

 

 

Reading you, Justinah, I said to myself: ultimately, what does the Bible say about Satan's 'feelings, emotions' as his imprisonment approaches? The book of Revelation tells us that after his ouster from heaven, Satan entered into a black rage. And what happens when someone is angry? He cannot control his thoughts, he no longer rationalizes.   

          

                              Insight says: 'Rage can disrupt the ability to reason and prevent one from drawing logical conclusions                               or making sound judgment.'

 

So could it be that because of his anger and therefore his madness, Satan does insane things, even acts against his own interests by instigating this or that action, just because it is stronger than him and because Is he angry? Should we expect him to reason?

 

Since the death of Jesus and his victory, Satan knows that the cup is served, that he will have to drink it to the dregs. In the meantime, he can still believe in it, because he is foolish, he continues to gamble for everything.

It could be that he no longer controls the monster he created, which is why, perhaps, the P&S cry will not respond to any logic, will be unexpected by everyone and dazzling for the majority. The angel of darkness is a professional of light, of illusion. So...

[Doug]

4 hours ago, Dolce vita said:

 

It could be that he no longer controls the monster he created, 

 

Interesting  .   .

[ChrisW]

5 hours ago, Dolce vita said:

So could it be that because of his anger and therefore his madness, Satan does insane things, even acts against his own interests by instigating this or that action, just because it is stronger than him and because Is he angry? Should we expect him to reason?

What a new thought sis.  We assume because we don't see all of the chaos(even though we do see a lot) but in the spirit world we don't see it. We think things are "relatively" calm.  How much are Jehovah's angels protecting us. And Jesus is protecting the congregation. Satan is angry and unreasonable. He's damaging all those around him and himself. 

[Dolce vita]

13 minutes ago, ChrisW said:

Quelle nouvelle pensée sœurette. Nous supposons parce que nous ne voyons pas tout le chaos (même si nous en voyons beaucoup) mais dans le monde des esprits, nous ne le voyons pas. Nous pensons que les choses sont « relativement » calmes. Dans quelle mesure les anges de Jéhovah nous protègent-ils ? Et Jésus protège la congrégation. Satan est en colère et déraisonnable. Il fait du mal à tous ceux qui l'entourent et à lui-même. 

😘, Chris.

[chuck83]

UN general assembly votes to back Palestinian bid for membership

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/10/un-support-palestine-membership

 

Personally that says a lot.... "143 to nine, with 25 abstentions". 

[BLEmom]

What holds back human governments from achieving so many goals?  Selfishness mostly. Selfish for power, money and land. 
My thought is that at some point these leaders begin to all act on promises of cooperation and act unselfishly for a brief moment in time. In my mind, it has to be that big for even some true christians to get caught up in the hype. 
All leaders and governments will have to be willing to give up and make compromises all at the same time for some greater good. When you look at many of the leaders running for office it’s hard to imagine such acts of unselfishness. When you look at all the current issues:  terrorism, war, famine, pandemic, climate change…so far none of these have been able to stop the selfish desire enough to achieve unity. 
What could be the one thing that unites them?  What is bigger than what we see?
It’s going to be interesting to see what could be the catalyst for such a unique moment in time. 

[Pjdriver]

21 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

To add to your musings.

The Bible does not “spell out exact reason” for saying of PS. It only links both the PS and immediate destruction of BTG. Therefore prophecy could surprise us all how it will be eventually fulfilled. There are many ways how things could play out … and slide us immediately into GT, where at that point we could say … wow! I did not expect that! But here we are. 
 

 

Greg, but how could you prove Paul was referring to organized religion's demise,  rather than armageddon? 

 

Think about this....how much physical  “destruction" will there be to ban organized religions?

There will continue to be law and order for a time after that.....until the real physical destruction directly from Jesus and friends comes at armageddon.

 

Eradicating organized religion is not mentioned until the Revelation w/BTG. I was just wondering, why P&S couldn’t come after religion is banned and just before the “sudden destruction”?  Seems reasonable,  since religion tends to disrupt peace. They could justify banning organizations for the sake of peace.

 

If they declare peace and security, then instantly ban religion....the peace would be very short-lived.

To Destry BTG, there really needs to be no significant  physical destruction. Her  demise comes from losing support of the peoples and Governments  and being banned. She has no more influence.  

 

The Real physical destruction comes at armageddon....the “sudden destruction”.  It appears as though there will be an interim of peace after BTG is banned and before Armageddon strikes.  Is that the so called "Peace and security” period before the "sudden destruction" of armageddon?   Stay tuned. 

 

 

 

 

[feebee]

36 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Greg, but how could you prove Paul was referring to organized religion's demise,  rather than armageddon? 

 

Think about this....how much physical  “destruction" will there be to ban organized religions?

There will continue to be law and order for a time after that.....until the real physical destruction directly from Jesus and friends comes at armageddon.

 

Eradicating organized religion is not mentioned until the Revelation w/BTG. I was just wondering, why P&S couldn’t come after religion is banned and just before the “sudden destruction”?  Seems reasonable,  since religion tends to disrupt peace. They could justify banning organizations for the sake of peace.

 

If they declare peace and security, then instantly ban religion....the peace would be very short-lived.

To Destry BTG, there really needs to be no significant  physical destruction. Her  demise comes from losing support of the peoples and Governments  and being banned. She has no more influence.  

 

The Real physical destruction comes at armageddon....the “sudden destruction”.  It appears as though there will be an interim of peace after BTG is banned and before Armageddon strikes.  Is that the so called "Peace and security” period before the "sudden destruction" of armageddon?   Stay tuned. 

 

 

 

 

I agree. Things are changing rapidly. We now understand "the end" to mean the final judgment not the start of the GT. Maybe this timeline will be adjusted.

[Richie]

In the future the prophecies will become clearer than today. We are not dogmatic, we can adapt accordingly. Most probably some of us already have ideas that are so logical and maybe one day will become the real pictures. For now, we tell to the people and to the new ones what are the currents not inserting our own ideas. Our ideas are based on what we undertand in the Scriptures and in our publications. We are so grateful to Jehovah on these. Because, He give us senses to feel and to understand some, one thing He asks from us, be loyal to Him and do the job of the evangelizer. 

 

 

[New World Explorer]

2 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

Eradicating organized religion is not mentioned until the Revelation w/BTG. I was just wondering, why P&S couldn’t come after religion is banned and just before the “sudden destruction”?  Seems reasonable,  since religion tends to disrupt peace. They could justify banning organizations for the sake of peace.

I consider this as an option also. Actually presenting a case to people worldwide how poisonous false religion is, and active obstacle for peace is a very valid argument.