DISCUSS COURT CASE HERE JW.org - Jehovah’s Witnesses Mobilize Global Response to Threat of Ban in Russia

[Victoria]

19 hours ago, Omoyeme said:

F.S.B. BEGINS ARRESTING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ON KOLA PENINSULA; DOZENS FLEE TO FINLAND

 

The above headline indeed reminds me of that scripture at Matthew 10:22, 23a which says: "And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.  When they persecute you in one city, flee to another".

 

It is my prayer that the brothers and sisters take heed of Jesus' words and do whatever they need to do to safeguard their lives and the lives of their children. 

I am trying to understand if it is right or not to flee when no one is going to kill you. I would like to hear jwtalk members opinions!

[rocket]

11 minutes ago, Victoria said:

I am trying to understand if it is right or not to flee when no one is going to kill you. I would like to hear jwtalk members opinions!

 

I personally don't know if there is a right or wrong. Each one would have to evaluate their own circumstances and how they might fare if they are sent to prison. Those with children risk having their children taken from them if they stay. It's a hard row to hoe either way one decides. A lot of prayer needed. Jesus fled at times so Jehovah's will concerning him might be manifest. Early christian fled to catacombs and to other cities but still many died in the arena. 

[Omoyeme]

1 hour ago, Victoria said:

I am trying to understand if it is right or not to flee when no one is going to kill you.

 

Sister Victoria...no one here can make that decision for you. It is for you and your family to decide -- after heartfelt prayer to Jehovah, deep contemplation and serious discussion of you and your family's personal circumstances.  (For me, no decisions are made - whether large or small - without talking to my Heavenly Father first and asking for holy spirit to make wise choices.)

 

Indeed, whatever you decide may greatly impact your future so please petition our God Jehovah first; then talk it over with your family, perhaps your elders also. 

 

He will make you firm; He will make you strong! 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Omoyeme

[hatcheckgirl]

Whatever you decide, with Jehovah’s help you’ll be able to endure it. Remember to think of the consequences too of the move - sometimes moving to another country has its own set of problems, and you need to take that into account too. Praying with all my heart for you to make the decision that’s right for you. I know he will reward the faith you show either way.

[Victoria]

7 hours ago, Omoyeme said:

 

Sister Victoria...no one here can make that decision for you.

 

Yes, I know it. I am just curious. As for me I cannot decide anything. My husband is to decide. So I think I need to memorize as many verses as I can because I won't be able to read the Bible in jail.

[New World Explorer]

42 minutes ago, Victoria said:

Yes, I know it. I am just curious. As for me I cannot decide anything. My husband is to decide. So I think I need to memorize as many verses as I can because I won't be able to read the Bible in jail.

What is your immediate situation?

How would you describe danger are you in?

What direction do you receive from elders?

 

Prayers with you, and all brothers and sister over there.

[Victoria]

9 hours ago, Gregexplore said:

What is your immediate situation?

How would you describe danger are you in?

What direction do you receive from elders?

We can be sent to prison for 10 years anytime. I don't know how they choose people to arrest.

But there is no death penalty in Russia. 

No direction about leaving the country or staying here.

[New World Explorer]

35 minutes ago, Victoria said:

We can be sent to prison for 10 years anytime. I don't know how they choose people to arrest.

But there is no death penalty in Russia. 

No direction about leaving the country or staying here.

Victoria, feel free to choose as you wish.

This is a family decision and you are within your rights to choose where you want to live, in order to carry on service to Jehovah.

I am not surprised by recent developments... hmmm Russia..hmmm.

 

[Vinnie]

Dear sister Victoria, not many of us are under the stress and pressure and fear that many of our friends in Russia are going through.  To me, it's frightening to think about any kind of persecution. 

 

Whatever your family decides, know that Jehovah will never abandon you. If you stay,  Jehovah will be with you. If you leave, Jehovah will still be with you.(Psalm 9:9, 10) . . .Jehovah will become a secure refuge for the oppressed, A secure refuge in times of distress. 10 Those knowing your name will trust in you; You will never abandon those seeking you, O Jehovah.

 

I don't think its about what is right or what is wrong but what you can or are prepared to deal with.  In our yearbooks we have many examples of what some of our brothers went through.  (Hebrews 13:5, 6) . . .For he has said: “I will never leave you, and I will never abandon you.” 6 So that we may be of good courage and say: “Jehovah is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?”

[BibleSteve]

If any Russian brothers are looking to leave and set up home elsewhere in the world the large city of Nantes in France has a fair number of Russian folks residing there so it could be a good territory for native witnessing. (Of course it would be best to speak to Bethel in France first)

 

 

 

[EccentricM]

I do understand the mental and emotional debate. I myself have wondered similar before, if it would be right in a time where we were all banned, to run away from the authorities to the point of evading or escaping arrest, or even defending one's self againt a physical assault from those with authority (for example would it be right for a brother to fend off an assault from a solider or police officer if they had orders to kill, attack or arrest JWs on site, to the point of physical retaliation or running when cuffed). And keeping in mind that we are subjection to these authorities (just not the point of disobeying Jehovah). Also keeping in mind too that we are a "spectacle", so would our resistance make us look bad or criminal-like in the eyes of onlookers, or would such resistance of arrest/avoidance or self defence of physical assault be justified in such a case?

Edited April 22, 2018 by EccentricM

[Vinnie]

Montreal, Canada  has a  Russian group. Yes there are many possible places to go. We are a world wide family. 

 

[Miss Bea]

7 hours ago, Victoria said:

Yes, I know it. I am just curious. As for me I cannot decide anything. My husband is to decide. So I think I need to memorize as many verses as I can because I won't be able to read the Bible in jail.

Sister, you stay as close to Jehovah as you can. In whatever manner you can. Holy Spirit will bring it back as the need be. You stay close to our dear Father. We will continue to pray for you and the dear friends in Russia! One day, I want to give you a big hug! When we are all safe. 

[Beggar for the Spirit]

10 hours ago, Victoria said:

I am trying to understand if it is right or not to flee when no one is going to kill you. I would like to hear jwtalk members opinions!

Hi Victoria,

 

I am like you, I would want to hear any advice from my brothers and sisters when considering such an important decision because "there is accomplishment through many advisers" (PR 15:22). So is it right or wrong to flee? Jehovah permits us to decide what we feel is best for our safety or for our family's safety, so there is no right or wrong scripturally.  But I hope the following thoughts help in some way for you and your husband when trying to decide whether it is best to flee or to remain in Russia. First, an excellent scriptural principle is what Jesus said, "Who of you wanting to build a tower(or deciding whether or not to flee) does not first sit down and calculate the expense?" (LU 14:28). "Calculate the expense" is not just finances, but other important areas as well . So here some things that a family can consider or "calculate":

• SPIRITUAL:  Will my husband and I be able to maintain and grow in our spirituality where we are moving? How strong or weak spiritually am I now? My husband? How much do we need the help of local brothers/sisters and the elders?
• EMOTIONAL:  How tough will it be to live away from well established friendships, the local congregation, family/relatives? 
• FINANCIAL:  Will we be able to find enough work where we want to move? Can we afford to move? Is the standard of living higher there or more affordable?
• CULTURAL: Will there be any language issues? Will it be very difficult to live as a foreigner there?
• SAFETY: Will trying to become a legal citizen there be difficult? If we will be considered illegal immigrants, what problems could this cause? Will there be dangers when making the move, traveling? Could we move at the same time as some other local families who are moving away?(Safety in numbers)

The answers to these questions and others that you may have can be placed on 1 side of a paper and then you can put the same questions & answers on the other side of the paper pertaining instead to staying in Russia. This "visual" of the advantages/disadvantages of moving or staying could be helpful. And some of this discussion and research with your husband could be done during "Family Worship" where you and your husband after prayer and asking for Holy Spirit and wisdom can best decide your future plans. 

Quote

*** g 2/13 p. 7 ***
Of course, would-be migrants should take into account more than the possible risks associated with travel. They should also consider potential language and cultural barriers in the new land, as well as the cost and legal complications of trying to become citizens or permanent residents there. Those who fail to obtain legal status often find it hard to obtain good employment, quality housing, education, or health care. They may also find it difficult to obtain a driver’s license or a bank account. And all too often, undocumented immigrants are exploited, perhaps as a source of cheap labor.

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Beggar for the Spirit

[Saffron]

It is so difficult to read this update. So upsetting. I can not imagine what you all are going through over there. Satan is just so busy and this is just so awful. 

 

I think about you all frequently, praying for you all the time. Because you are always in my thoughts, I have sometimes thought about what I would do in your situation, dear sister @Victoria. Since you asked to hear the thoughts of others, my personal answer is that if it were possible and didn't go against anything in the Bible or any direction given by the FDS, I would leave. We are a worldwide organization, so it is possible to serve Jehovah anywhere. 

 

Of course others may see it differently or have different opinions. That's okay too. Sending lots of love and prayers your way, dear sister. May Jehovah sustain you no matter where you choose to serve Him. 

[Willow]

On 4/19/2018 at 7:40 PM, Omoyeme said:

 

What a coincidence! I just found a picture of the Ombudsman on the internet!

 

Well that's simply the funniest thing I've ever seen! Good for you dear sister - look for humor to offset the negatives. ALL 8 million of your brothers and sisters are praying for you and you yourself are encouraging us! I hope I'm able to keep a sense of humor throughout my trials. Thank you for your courageous and encouraging example!

Edited April 22, 2018 by Willow
Left line out.

[Willow]

I'm so embarrassed! I mixed up who posted the picture! Duh! 

 

And I meant to say the following to dear sister Victoria:

I can only suggest you may find comfort from reading your country's history of how previous brothers and sisters dealt with being a JW living "underground". There are truly fantastic experiences that came out of the old Soviet Union's attempt to eliminate Jehovah's worship. But whether or not you are ABLE to stay and go "underground", or whether you choose to leave, Jehovah will continue to love and comfort you. And so will we!

[Lance]

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/life-and-public/2018/04/fsb-starts-detaining-jehovahs-whiteness-kola-dozens-flee-finland

 

This article says that about 1000 are seeking asylum in Europe... Doesn't say specifically Jw's

...but it gives that impression...

[rocket]

I hope a few of our Russian friends make it to Oregon. We have a relatively large population (10,000 + ) of Russian Old Believers that immigrated in the 1960's to Oregon.  Close by is a Russian group that meets with an English Congregation. They could sure use some help. The Russian Old Believers were persecuted in Russia, some imprisoned, some burned alive in their 17th century rebellion to the Russian Orthodox Church. The 1917 Russian Revolution encouraged many to flee, first to South America and then to the USA. Oregon has the Largest population of Old Believers in the US.

 

https://oregonhistoryproject.org/articles/historical-records/russian-old-believers/

[Victoria]

11 hours ago, rocket said:

I hope a few of our Russian friends make it to Oregon. We have a relatively large population (10,000 + ) of Russian Old Believers that immigrated in the 1960's to Oregon.  Close by is a Russian group that meets with an English Congregation. They could sure use some help. The Russian Old Believers were persecuted in Russia, some imprisoned, some burned alive in their 17th century rebellion to the Russian Orthodox Church. The 1917 Russian Revolution encouraged many to flee, first to South America and then to the USA. Oregon has the Largest population of Old Believers in the US.

 

https://oregonhistoryproject.org/articles/historical-records/russian-old-believers/

The US visa is a real problem.

BTW do you know anything about Chistyakoff(?). Don't know how to write his name in English:-) As far as I know he is a JW and moved to the US. He is a singer.

[rocket]

Sorry but I can't be of much help there. I know many go to South Korea,  Australia or Canada before ending up in US. Finland might also be a good option.

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/42021-famous-russian-singer-a-jehovahs-witness-flees-russia/

 

https://fedorchistyakov.com/

 

http://www.dromnyc.com/events/7267/fedor-chistyakov

 

[pholmes38]

Another, independent, news update

 

http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2372

 

 

[Omoyeme]

From jw-russia.org: https://jw-russia.org/news/18042015-301.html

 

Quote

In Four Regions of Russia almost Simultaneously Arrested Citizens who are considered Jehovah's Witnesses

20 April 2018

 

10, 18, 19 and 20 April 2018 in Bashkiria, the Murmansk region, Primorsky Krai and the Ivanovo region, there were series of searches in the homes of citizens suspected of professing the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. Four citizens were arrested.

 

On April 10, 2018, 8 searches were carried out simultaneously in  Ufa . The resolution on searches filed appeals with the Supreme Court of the Republic of Bashkortostan. One of the citizens, a 32-year-old man, was arrested and is in jail until June 2, 2018.

 

In the evening of April 18, 2018 in the town of  Polyarny (Murmansk region), searches were held in the homes of local citizens. Two citizens, men of 44 years and 61 years, who were seen in the police, do not get in touch. Presumably, they are arrested.

 

On April 19, 2018, law enforcement officers invaded one of the dwellings in Vladivostok . A 42-year-old man was arrested. He learned that he would be charged under article 282. (organization of an extremist organization).

 

Since the morning of April 20, 2018 in  Shuya (Ivanovo region), at least three searches are conducted in the dwellings of local residents. One of the citizens, a 33-year-old man, was taken to the police.

Earlier, in January and February 2018, mass searches were held in  Belgorod and in  Kemerovo . Citizens are suspected of continuing the activities of the organization "Management Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia".

 

All searches and arrests were a direct consequence of the decision of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation to liquidate and ban all legal entities of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia. At the same time, the Russian authorities continue to assert that this decision does not prohibit professing the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses. On a similar charge in the city of Orel was taken into custody by a Danish citizen who has been in jail since May 25, 2017. On July 21, 2017, the human rights center Memorial recognized Dennis Kristensen as a political prisoner .

I'm sick!

[Omoyeme]

From jw-russia.org: https://jw-russia.org/news/18042518-305.html

 

Quote

The Seizure of Foreign Property by the Russian Authorities

25 April 2018

 

December 7, 2017 in the Sestroretsk District Court of St. Petersburg was made an unprecedented decision - to withdraw from a foreign organization a large complex of real estate in St. Petersburg, recognizing a deal 17 years ago invalid.

 

"We are talking about 14 buildings with an area of 33 thousand square meters," says Yaroslav Sivulsky from the European Association of Jehovah's Witnesses. "They are located on 10 hectares of beautiful, landscaped territory in the village of Solnechnoye, this is the resort area of St. Petersburg. And this complex was handed over to the Society of the Watchtower, Bibles and Treatises of Pennsylvania in 2000 ".

 

During the 4-hour trial, exhaustive evidence was presented, confirming the legality of the transfer of the complex to a foreign owner.

Attorney Victor Shipilov explained: "For example, in the 2000s, in 2007, the issues of transferring property into the property of the Watchtower Society, the Bible and Pennsylvania treaties were carefully checked, and there were no violations by the prosecution authorities, no claims were not presented. "

 

"The Watchtower Society had to pay taxes, although the Management Center as a religious organization registered under the laws of Russia was exempted from paying taxes on land and real estate," explained lawyer Arthur Leontiev. "The society for all these years has been forced to pay enough a large sum as taxes to the budget of the Russian Federation. This amount was about three million dollars. It is clear that by concluding an imaginary transaction purely for a kind or on paper, no one would waste such money. "

It is noteworthy that the Watchtower Society was not allowed to participate in hearings in the Supreme Court of Russia in April 2017. Then the Supreme Court denied the "Company" involvement in the case, motivating it by saying that the interests of this organization are not affected in any way.

 

Arthur Leontiev: "In simple terms, this situation can be compared with the fact that I, I suppose, own the apartment in which my relative lives, and to some relative, according to far-fetched, perhaps, reasons, some law enforcement structures make claims and say , that he broke something. Representatives of the state come to me and say: "Give the apartment!" I say: "Why?" - "Well, because your relative, in our opinion, violated the law." I say: "Forgive me, I did not violate the law, I was not presented with any claims. Why do you want to take away my property? "But nevertheless they say:" Yes, we want to take back. ""

It is worth noting that the Russian Federation did not finance the construction of the complex. The abandoned pioneer camp, located on this territory, was purchased on a commercial basis by Jehovah's Witnesses from one of the Russian enterprises.

 

Yaroslav Sivulsky: "This complex was built on the funds of foreign religious organizations and exclusively by the believers themselves. So there is nothing illogical about the fact that these buildings were later donated to the "Watch Tower Society", at the request of which construction was carried out. "

Alexander Blokhin recalls: "We saw with what enthusiasm, with dedication, with desire, with joy, the believers from many countries take part in this. They came with trailers, they lived there, in these trailers. That is, people went to specific victims. Today, seeing that, what was with such love, with such sacrifices such selflessness is built, is simply so taken away. Here, just humanly very sad and painful. " His wife Olga shares feelings: "It seems that you have torn off part of your heart, because the smells, plants, everything that was there, how would it all with their own hands, and invested a lot of soul into it."

 

Recall that this happened in Russia only once, namely, 100 years ago, in 1918. Then the decree of the Council of People's Commissars was taken away all the property of the Russian Orthodox Church. The decision of the Sestroretsk District Court has no analogues in the history of modern Russia.

Mikhail Sitnikov, a journalist: "If we start from normal human understanding, then this is robbery. Actually, the same violence, the other side of the same violence, which was expressed in the discrimination of religion and believers, was expressed in insults when they broke in during the divine service. It is expressed now that they are trying to take everything away to the end. "

 

Gerhard Bezier, a religious scholar: "This step surprised me, because it damages the image of Russia in certain circles. In my opinion, there is no benefit for Russia in this. We should not give up trying to convey to the public what is happening, and reach out especially to thinking people around the world. "

Roman Lunkin, a religious scholar: "I think that the time will come when the Russian state will have to carry out the same partial restitution of religious property that has been taking place against the Russian Orthodox Church since 2010 and, undoubtedly, the state will sooner or later return to the principles of religious freedom , and therefore return to Jehovah's Witnesses what is now confiscated. "

 

"If the case is considered purely by law, we believe that the decision of the Sestroretsky district court should be canceled and the prosecutor should be denied the suit," said lawyer Artur Leontiev. If any other considerations prevail, well, then we will continue to appeal further.

"All the property that can be confiscated, Jehovah's Witnesses dedicated to Jehovah God," says Yaroslav Sivulsky. Therefore, we believe that it belongs to God and is taken away from God. And the Bible teaches us to put all our worries on Him. "

 

[Victoria]

http://newsorel.ru/fn_360908.html

Hope you can translate it. More details about Dennis's court hearing.