Magic mushrooms might help depression by resetting the brain

[Thesauron]

3 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

Let me say first off that I’ve never done crystal meth on my own will. I just used that experience as an example of how the demons can attack you if your mind is “open” to their influence no matter what your intent was. 

You have to open up your mind, perhaps by drugs perhaps by other means, and you usually have to invoke them. This is not proper medical practice.

[Cushi]

4 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

 

Again, this brings us around in circles. Where do you draw the line?

 

Further up, Johan mentioned taking morphine which is like doing heroine. Xanax is highly addictive and very efficient for blocking panic and anxiety attacks because it just makes you feel great.

 

Though you are right that it's not "a good thing that doing a drug can cure depression", we are still stuck in this broken system where taking drugs may be a necessity to maintain a certain level of risk.

 

 

Excuse me for butting in, but quoting crystal meth is like the worst example imaginable. Crystal meth has no known mental or physical health benefits no matter what the dose.

Let me say first off that I’ve never done crystal meth on my own will. I just used that experience as an example of how the demons can attack you if your mind is “open” to their influence no matter what your intent was. 

9 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

You have to open up your mind, perhaps by drugs perhaps by other means, and you usually have to invoke them. This is not proper medical practice.

I have been harassed by demons when I didn’t invoke them. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

[Thesauron]

10 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

Let me say first off that I’ve never done crystal meth on my own will. I just used that experience as an example of how the demons can attack you if your mind is “open” to their influence no matter what your intent was. 

I have been harassed by demons when I didn’t invoke them. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

They can do it anyway, but that’s why the word pharmakia is used in the Greek scriptures for “practice of spiritism”. It is a wilful act of invoking spirits by means of drugs.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Thesauron

[Cool Cat]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

Not really, though. You can not compare recreational and medical use. There is an ocean wide difference between using them medically and recreationally. Both might, however, carry grave side effects. Imagine taking lithium without depression, or what might happen to your brain if you undergo electric chock therapy, which is done for deep depression. Both carry heavy possible side effects, but sometimes they are the only way out. Lithium is even a very blunt tool, and it’s not exactly known how it works. If studies show that the pros using this chemical under controlled circumstances might outweigh the cons and solve very difficult issues... If your depression so changes your personality that you might want to commit suicide or do harm in other ways, and a potent drug such as psilocybin might help bring you back to a normal life, isn’t that a good thing?

 

When you put it like that, then yes the ability of mushrooms to help someone with chronic depression would be a wonderful idea. However some people could argue the same case for hypnotism. Hypnotism has been used to help many people to quit smoking or to bring out repressed memories, to cure depression  and for other things that are considered beneficial. However we have articles and magazines which have dealt with the issues of opening up your mind to someone or something else and it is something which is said to not be for a Christian.

 

The interesting thing to discuss would be does taking psychedelic drugs enough for you to hallucinate  on purpose constitute opening up your mind to spirits or suggestions in the same way that hypnotism does? The drug has not got a side effect of visual disturbances, hallucinations, or opening yourself up physically, mentally and spiritually. These are the effects of this drug and will happen to pretty much everyone. It's a hard one to decide and I am afraid I am undecided on whether it is a wise usable form of treatment or not for a Christian.

 

 

[Thesauron]

58 minutes ago, MentalProject said:

 

When you put it like that, then yes the ability of mushrooms to help someone with chronic depression would be a wonderful idea. However some people could argue the same case for hypnotism. Hypnotism has been used to help many people to quit smoking or to bring out repressed memories, to cure depression  and for other things that are considered beneficial. However we have articles and magazines which have dealt with the issues of opening up your mind to someone or something else and it is something which is said to not be for a Christian.

 

The interesting thing to discuss would be does taking psychedelic drugs enough for you to hallucinate  on purpose constitute opening up your mind to spirits or suggestions in the same way that hypnotism does? The drug has not got a side effect of visual disturbances, hallucinations, or opening yourself up physically, mentally and spiritually. These are the effects of this drug and will happen to pretty much everyone. It's a hard one to decide and I am afraid I am undecided on whether it is a wise usable form of treatment or not for a Christian.

 

 

Would you allow medical staff to inject you with morphine before surgery? Or as a means of managing severe pain?

 

Hypnotism is something else entirely. You open yourself up to suggestions that are very hard to block. The medical treatments we are talking about here would not do these these things. (Deuteronomy 18:10, 11)

Edited October 14, 2017 by Thesauron

[ellejayzee]

Many analgesics are based on the same compounds of heroin. Everything from over the counter painkillers such as codeine to morphine lolly pops for those with severe chronic pain very often are the only treatment options for those who suffer daily or are involved in trauma.

 

Fentanyl is used routinely in endoscopic procedures, for example. Now, it's being heavily, heavily abused (in the US mainly), as it makes the user feel so incredibly good - one could say it alters the mind both emotionally and quite literally by blocking pain receptors. It's causing a horrendous number of deaths due to its being 100x (or something like that) the strength of morphine. Ketamine is another example of a tranquilliser used in the case of dislocated limbs/severe trauma, but also used as a party drug. 

 

I'm sure there are some brothers and sisters who feel that taking a medication containing the same compound as a recreational drug may not be acceptable to them, and that's certainly a conscience matter - especially for those who may have suffered with their own addictions. I personally think regarding this particular study that if it's controlled and used in a professional way, more than likely side-by-side with psychosocial therapies (that is to say, if it actually is proved to be an effective treatment), it may greatly benefit those who have treatment resistant depression and would be no different to using opiates to control pain. Because the aim isn't to get high, the aim is to reset the brain in the same way ECT is thought to work.

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by ellejayzee
Typo

[Cool Cat]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

Would you allow medical staff to inject you with morphine before surgery? Or as a means of managing severe pain?

 

Hypnotism is something else entirely. You open yourself up to suggestions that are very hard to block. The medical treatments we are talking about here would not do these these things. (Deuteronomy 18:10, 11)

 

Yes I would allow morphine before surgery. I am a very pro pain relief in this system of things when it comes to managing pain. 

 

Having smoked heroin I have a rough Idea how lovely opiates can make you feel with regards to managing pain. I did not feel open to spiritual or mental influence when under the influence though.

 

Psilocybin is different though. You feel like you are on a higher level and like you have accessed a world that has spiritual significance. I remember feeling Interconnected with the world around me. It is a completely different set of circumstances than pain management so comparing them seems not sensible to me. 

 

Have you taken Magic Mushrooms? Do you have any experience with regards to Psilocybin or the Psy world?

[Thesauron]

3 minutes ago, MentalProject said:

Yes I would allow morphine before surgery. I am a very pro pain relief in this system of things when it comes to managing pain. 

 

Having smoked heroin I have a rough Idea how lovely opiates can make you feel with regards to managing pain. I did not feel open to spiritual or mental influence when under the influence though.

 

Psilocybin is different though. You feel like you are on a higher level and like you have accessed a world that has spiritual significance. I remember feeling Interconnected with the world around me. It is a completely different set of circumstances than pain management so comparing them seems not sensible to me. 

 

Have you taken Magic Mushrooms? Do you have any experience with regards to Psilocybin or the Psy world?

You are talking about abusing magic mushrooms, not about a controlled medical use of psilocybin to solve a particular medical issue that is very difficult to solve by other means. These two things are very different uses altogether and should not be confused. One is prohibited by law in many countries and by scripture, the other is not.

[Qapla]

I have been reading this thread and have yet to comment. I might mention I have never done any recreational drugs. However, I was prescribed Xanax (Alprazolam) when I was treated for Prostate Cancer. I have never had morphine, but I know JW's who have while in the hospital.

 

It seems that there was some discussion here equating the "magic mushrooms" to these two drugs.

 

Let's see:

• Alprazolam (Xanax) was first released by Upjohn in 1981. 
• Morphine was first isolated between 1803 and 1805 by Friedrich Sertürner. This is generally believed to be the first isolation of an active ingredient from a plant. Merck began marketing it commercially in 1827. Morphine was more widely used after the invention of the hypodermic syringe in 1853–1855. Sertürner originally named the substance morphium after the Greek god of dreams, Morpheus, as it has a tendency to cause sleep.

So, Xanax has been used in the medical field for 36 years and was only approved after multiple testing. Morphine has been used in the medical field for 190 years, No telling how much testing was done prior to it's use, but it is safe to say it has been well tested by now.

 

15 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Scientists at Imperial College London gave psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, to 20 patients who had depression that hadn’t been helped by other treatments. Patients first took a 10mg dose of psilocybin, then a 25mg dose the week after.

 

All the patients said they still felt better a week after treatment, and about half of them felt better five weeks later, too. These self-reports were confirmed by before-and-after brain scans. After the treatment, there was less blood flow in the part of the brain that is involved in emotion processing, called the amygdala.

 

With the wide recreational use of "magic mushrooms" and all the problems that has resulted in and the lack of long term medical testing .... well, Personally, I am not sure I would want to use, recommend or defend a drug that has only been tested on 20 people in a medical setting.

 

 

 

 

[Thesauron]

4 minutes ago, Qapla said:

With the wide recreational use of "magic mushrooms" and all the problems that has resulted in and the lack of long term medical testing .... well, Personally, I am not sure I would want to use, recommend or defend a drug that has only been tested on 20 people in a medical setting.

It is undisputed that the study was small, that more studies are needed. No serious medical professional will recommend a drug that has been tested on only 20 people.

[Cool Cat]

4 hours ago, Thesauron said:

You are talking about abusing magic mushrooms, not about a controlled medical use of psilocybin to solve a particular medical issue that is very difficult to solve by other means. These two things are very different uses altogether and should not be confused. One is prohibited by law in many countries and by scripture, the other is not.

 

Whether you have taken them recreationally or you have taken them in this controlled experiment there are still these reports from both sets of groups of spiritual significance. In the controlled experiment 31% viewed it as the most spiritually significant thing they had done in their life. 

 

Magic mushrooms can only be controlled so much in an experiment but what this figure and I am telling you from personal experience is that the drugs direct influence and connection to spiritual matters is real and therefore something that a Christian should think very carefully about. If hypnotism is ruled out for opening your mind to the spirits then mushrooms of the hallucinogenic kind should be carefully considered as being possibly/probably dangerous too.

 

 

[harmania]

How do we know its not the mushroom and the chemicals in it messing or helping the brain instead of demons? 

[Cool Cat]

42 minutes ago, harmania said:

How do we know its not the mushroom and the chemicals in it messing or helping the brain instead of demons? 

I would say it definitely is the mushrooms and chemicals affecting your brain. 

 

It is I think really hard to explain the mind state of someone who is on psychedelic drugs to someone who has not taken them. It feels like you are taking a ride through an enhanced transcendent world.

 

*Maybe the synonyms of transcendent might help:- supernatural, paranormal, preternatural, transcendental, other-worldly, superhuman, mystical, mystic, spiritual, divine, heavenly, exalted, sublime, ethereal, numinous, transmundane, ineffable

 

This feeling would not be absent in a controlled experiment.

Edited October 15, 2017 by MentalProject

[Thesauron]

4 hours ago, MentalProject said:

 

Whether you have taken them recreationally or you have taken them in this controlled experiment there are still these reports from both sets of groups of spiritual significance. In the controlled experiment 31% viewed it as the most spiritually significant thing they had done in their life. 

 

Magic mushrooms can only be controlled so much in an experiment but what this figure and I am telling you from personal experience is that the drugs direct influence and connection to spiritual matters is real and therefore something that a Christian should think very carefully about. If hypnotism is ruled out for opening your mind to the spirits then mushrooms of the hallucinogenic kind should be carefully considered as being possibly/probably dangerous too.

 

 

What they feel is one thing, but what’s really going on in your brain is a whole different thing. Of course, isolating the potent chemical and using it in the proper dose in a controlled environment is wildly different from abusing “Magic mushrooms”. A medical study will show what happens, if it has any long lasting negative effects, and how the beneficial effects work. It will also show how to best use the chemical. It will probably never be an over the counter pill you can take at home, but who knows...

[ChocoBro]

13 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

Let me say first off that I’ve never done crystal meth on my own will. I just used that experience as an example of how the demons can attack you if your mind is “open” to their influence no matter what your intent was. 

 

But still this is a poor example. Different drugs have different effects on the brain and psyche. Alcohol is also a drug but a certain measure of it is explicitly allowed and even praised in the bible.

 

So you can't compare medicinal use of marijuana or the idea medically administered psylocibin to the abuse of crystal meth.

 

In fact, I wouldn't even compare the recreational uses no matter what the circumstances. There's never ever once been a pothead as lost as a person who is addicted to crystal meth. There's a good reason why a large part of drug users (especially outside the USA) never end up on heroine, crack or crystal meth simply because it is a well-known fact these types of drugs destroy you entirely, and fast.

 

Individual drugs have completely different effects on the human brain. So saying "I had a bad experience with passively smoking meth, so you shouldn't do medically administered xxxx" is an incorrect statement on so many levels.

 

Again, all drugs have a bad effect on your psyche and open you up to bad things in some way. Do the demons not also use depression induced within an ADHD patient who gets depressed under the influence of methylphenidate / ritalin? Don't some people become fully incapable of dealing with issues once they're fully dependent on Xanax?

 

This Watchtower article pretty much sums it up well

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102001011#h=7

 

Quote

King Solomon warned that “anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.” (Proverbs 14:15) Even when a medical decision is not in direct conflict with Bible principles, a person should ‘consider his steps.’ Not all forms of medical treatment are helpful. When Jesus said that ‘those who are ailing need a physician,’ he was not sanctioning all the medical treatments that were available in his day. He knew that some forms of medical practice were sound and that some were fallacious.*

Likewise today, some treatments may be useless, even fraudulent. Lack of good judgment could expose a person to unnecessary risks. It should also be acknowledged that a treatment that is helpful to one person could be ineffective—even harmful—to another. When facing a medical decision, a prudent person would weigh his options carefully instead of ‘putting faith in every word,’ even when receiving advice from well-meaning friends. He would display “soundness of mind” by seeking reliable information so as to be in a position to make an informed choice.—Titus 2:12.

Be Realistic and Reasonable

It is proper to be concerned with the state of one’s health. Giving balanced attention to physical wellness shows appreciation for the gift of life and its divine Source. (Psalm 36:9) Although seeking to obtain suitable medical treatment, Christians would want to be balanced in matters of health. For example, if a reasonably healthy person becomes obsessively preoccupied with health and fitness, this could cause him to lose sight of “the more important things.”—Philippians 1:10; 2:3, 4.

A desperately sick woman in Jesus’ day “spent all her resources” seeking the help of physicians for treatment of her chronic ailment. What was the result? Rather than being cured, her condition worsened, which must have caused her much frustration. (Mark 5:25, 26) She did everything in her power to gain relief, but nothing worked. Her experience highlights the limits of the medical science of her time. Even today, despite advances in medical research and technology, many people find themselves in a similar situation. So it is important to have a realistic view of what medical science can accomplish. Perfect health is unattainable at present. Christians recognize that God’s time for “the curing of the nations” is yet future. (Revelation 22:1, 2) Therefore, we must develop a balanced view of medical treatment.—Philippians 4:5.

Clearly, the choices that we make matter. For that reason, when confronted with decisions about medical treatment, our choice should reflect both our desire for good health and our desire to maintain a healthy relationship with God.

 

 

So at the end of the day, we must individually weigh the pros and cons of any form of medicinal treatment (that is not directly opposed to biblical principles, such as the use of blood) based on each individual's conscience, while keeping a keen eye on how such treatments affect us on a spiritual level.

 

I know a brother who suffers from bipolar disorder. When he loses it, he becomes "super-spiritual" and starts seeing Jehovah's hand in every day little things. Borderline delusions of grandeur, that kind of thing. He was so awkward that some people became scared of him. He said he could not refrain from witnessing to colleagues at any given moment. Not necessarily a good witness either. Some moments he fell into a total depression when things didn't go well (which was often related to his behaviour). About a year ago he started taking some medication that flattens the disbalances and peaks in his emotional state. He told me he feels somewhat like a robot now, but that from a reasonable standpoint he knows that he could not have gone on the way he was before, and yet it takes getting used to looking at spiritiual food in such a "mundane" state of mind. The medication clearly also takes away his extreme passion for the truth. But without it, he was slowly turning into a loonatic.

 

These are the choices we all have to make on an individual level.

[Cool Cat]

2 hours ago, Thesauron said:

What they feel is one thing, but what’s really going on in your brain is a whole different thing. Of course, isolating the potent chemical and using it in the proper dose in a controlled environment is wildly different from abusing “Magic mushrooms”. A medical study will show what happens, if it has any long lasting negative effects, and how the beneficial effects work. It will also show how to best use the chemical. It will probably never be an over the counter pill you can take at home, but who knows...

 

While I agree that there is a difference in medical and non medical uses of drugs and therapies and there is a use that is clearly unscriptural and a use that needs to be decided in light of the scriptures and the individuals condition. There are still techniques, therapies and in this case drugs that need to be examined even more carefully by a Christian, than a person of the world. 

 

The slave have provided us with various articles and guidance with regards to spiritism, contraversial therapies and drugs.

 

The literal meaning of the Greek word phar·ma·kiʹa, rendered “practice of spiritism,” is “druggery.” This is because in sorcery use of certain types of drugs involved incantations and appeal to the spirits. This is especially practiced among shamans and the occult and heavily linked with psychadelic drugs. Some of the earliest pictures of people taking drugs are pictures of shamans with mushrooms. Its interesting that the reasoning book mentions the link between hallucinations and being easy prey for demons.

 

Quote

 

rs Drugs

....many who use drugs are involved in spiritistic practices or associate with those who are, because a blank mind or one that experiences hallucinations is easy prey to the demons. Compare Luke 11:24-26.)

 

 

The slave also has recognized that these feelings of approaching God, hallucinating and freeing of ones mind is opening up a way to the demons.

 

Quote

w73 3.15 Approach to Jehovah or to the Demons—Which.

Many drug users claim they are ‘approaching God,’ they are ‘expanding their minds.’ But actually it has to do with impressing the user with mysterious hallucinations and feelings, leading them to the demons, under the idea that the drug is freeing their minds for higher, broader thinking. If one is led into the practice of spiritism he is open to all sorts of wrong practices, demon influence, insanity and everlasting death.

 

 

Now you might say "but this is in a controlled environment" the "dose is monitored" and "there has been reports of succesfull results" But is that our primary basis for whether a procedure or therapy is ok or not?

 

The dose 25mg is a medium dose which will produce psychadelic effects, hallucinations and in many cases a feeling of "approaching God" "higher and broader thinking" and an "opening of the mind" This dose would be no joke and would feel like an access portal to the incomprehensible spirit world. Would this be something even a very sick Christian would want to do?

 

With regards to the other 2 points, hypnosis is said to have beneficial effects in controlled situations.

Quote

 

g03 7.8 Is Hypnotism for Christians.

For instance, the magazine Psychology Today states: “Hypnotherapy can treat headaches, ease labor pains, help you quit smoking, replace anesthesia, and improve study habits—all without side effects.”

 

 

So hypnosis is ok then, right?

 

Well no not really, why?

Quote

 

g03 7.8 Is Hypnotism for Christians.

HYPNOTISM has been the subject of much debate and controversy. Even experts in the field find it difficult to explain. It is generally understood that hypnosis is an altered state of consciousness, or trance. Most people, however, are more interested in what hypnotism can do than in what it is.

....

What is the Bible’s viewpoint? Of course, the Bible is not a health textbook, and it does not comment directly on the subject of hypnotism. But the principles found in God’s Word can help us determine God’s view.
Hypnotism and Occultism—Is There a Link?
........Regarding hypnotism, the Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology explains: “Its history is inextricably interwoven with occultism.” Religious trances, which have been a part of sorcery and magic throughout history, are commonly viewed as a form of hypnosis........

While it is difficult to determine to what extent various forms of hypnotism may have to do with the occult, the fact is that God clearly condemns all forms of spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12; Revelation 21:8) Thus, Christians cannot ignore the clearly unscriptural aspects of hypnotism..........

“The hypnotized subject may be openly susceptible to even veiled suggestion, he may have ready access to his more usually heavily veiled unconscious drives, and he may while hypnotized feel that all social and personal curbs on his behavior have been removed.”............

Does this sound harmless? Would it be advisable for a true Christian to let others influence his mind by means of hypnotic suggestions? This would be contrary to the apostle Paul’s admonition: “Present your bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”—Romans 12:1, 2.
Could a Christian “hold a good conscience,” if he allowed himself to be put into a state where he could not fully control his thoughts or desires or even his actions?

 

 

So many of the things mentioned in the article could be linked to the loss of control and the access to the unconscious drives that magic mushrooms invoke. Thats why I was thinking of hypnotism when discussing this topic of pschadelics.

 

I really want this drug to be a viable solution for a witness with severe depression. I can think of a few lovely brothers It could work wonders for. However do bible principals come into the equation. The more I talk about it the more I feel they probably do.

 

 

 

[Thesauron]

1 minute ago, MentalProject said:

There are still techniques, therapies and in this case drugs that need to be examined even more carefully by a Christian, than a person of the world. 

The same is true with every medical treatment.

 

You are comparing it to hypnotism, which I’ve stated above is wrong. A Christian cannot with a good conscience open up his mind like that. This, however, does not happen with psilocybin. You might get a temporary experience of a religious nature, but that’s because of how your brain is constructed. It can be monitored and controlled by medical staff. It does not open up your mind to suggestion like hypnotism does.

[Cool Cat]

16 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

The same is true with every medical treatment.

 

You are comparing it to hypnotism, which I’ve stated above is wrong. A Christian cannot with a good conscience open up his mind like that. This, however, does not happen with psilocybin.........

 

I respectfully disagree. Opening up your mind is a large part of Psilocybin and feeling like you are coming into contact with a higher, spirit world is a common effect that the user will experience. Hence why Shamans and the Occult use them.

[Thesauron]

6 minutes ago, MentalProject said:

 

I respectfully disagree. Opening up your mind is a large part of Psilocybin and feeling like you are coming into contact with a higher, spirit world is a common effect that the user will experience. Hence why Shamans and the Occult use them.

They might make you feel like you are entering a higher state of understanding and being one with everything, but they do not open you up to suggestion. That’s not what they are used for either. They are used by shamans because they are hallucogenic and can make you feel that you have a connection to the divine and experience very odd things. This is forbidden and is what is meant by the biblical expression “spiritism”. (Galatians 5:19-21) Maybe we imagine different things when speaking about ‘opening your mind’ and ‘becoming susceptible to suggestion’.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Thesauron

[ellejayzee]

3 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

I know a brother who suffers from bipolar disorder. When he loses it, he becomes "super-spiritual" and starts seeing Jehovah's hand in every day little things. Borderline delusions of grandeur, that kind of thing. He was so awkward that some people became scared of him. He said he could not refrain from witnessing to colleagues at any given moment.

 

During my mental health placement, I experienced the same with patients who have bipolar (and other narcissistic/personality disorders). Delusions of grandeur are, from what I've seen, really common during the manic phase. I know of a few friends who've experienced mental crisis and believe themselves to be literal sons of Jehovah - this doesn't mean they're demon possessed or they've done something to open their mind and let demons in. The mind is incredible in how it works and aside from our creator, we'll never truly understand how it malfunctions. 

[Cool Cat]

2 hours ago, Thesauron said:

They might make you feel like you are entering a higher state of understanding and being one with everything, but they do not open you up to suggestion. That’s not what they are used for either. They are used by shamans because they are hallucogenic and can make you feel that you have a connection to the divine and experience very odd things. This is forbidden and is what is meant by the biblical expression “spiritism”. (Galatians 5:19-21) Maybe we imagine different things when speaking about ‘opening your mind’ and ‘becoming susceptible to suggestion’.

 

 

But if you hallucinate and you feel like you have a connection to the Divine or spirit world you are dancing with the spirit realm. What's the difference? It isn't something that is a possible side effect of shrooms, it is the effect of them. You are therefore opening your mind up to not a hypnotist on earth but something probably much more dangerous. That's why the reasoning book I quoted earlier said this:- 

 

rs Drugs

....many who use drugs are involved in spiritistic practices or associate with those who are, because a blank mind or one that experiences hallucinations is easy prey to the demons. Compare Luke 11:24-26.

 

We then are left with the question should a Christian knowingly take something that will make him feel like he is connected with the Devine or spirit world even in a controlled setting?

 

Connection with the spirit world is something detestable to Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) Should we use a medication even if clearly effective that takes us so close to and even dances on the boundary of doing something that Jehovah hates? It's not like the feeling is optional when you have taken Psilocybin.

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by MentalProject

[Thesauron]

6 minutes ago, MentalProject said:

 

But if you hallucinate and you feel like you have a connection to the Divine or spirit world you are dancing with the spirit realm. What's the difference? It isn't something that is a possible side effect of shrooms, it is the effect of them. You are therefore opening your mind up to not a hypnotist on earth but something probably much more dangerous. That's why the reasoning book I quoted earlier said this:- 

 

rs Drugs

....many who use drugs are involved in spiritistic practices or associate with those who are, because a blank mind or one that experiences hallucinations is easy prey to the demons. Compare Luke 11:24-26.

 

We then are left with the question should a Christian knowingly take something that will make him feel like he is connected with the Devine or spirit world even in a controlled setting?

 

Connection with the spirit world is something detestable to Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) Should we use a medication even if clearly effective that takes us so close to and even dances on the boundary of doing something that Jehovah hates? It's not like the feeling is optional when you have taken Psilocybin.

 

 

That is what I’m saying. But the hallucinations are not what you are after when using them in a medical setting. You are also not excepted to set yourself in contact with the spirit realm. I feel the discussion is getting a bit circular, and that’s unnecessary, so let’s stop here.

[Thesauron]

1 hour ago, ellejayzee said:

 

During my mental health placement, I experienced the same with patients who have bipolar (and other narcissistic/personality disorders). Delusions of grandeur are, from what I've seen, really common during the manic phase. I know of a few friends who've experienced mental crisis and believe themselves to be literal sons of Jehovah - this doesn't mean they're demon possessed or they've done something to open their mind and let demons in. The mind is incredible in how it works and aside from our creator, we'll never truly understand how it malfunctions. 

We had a sister here some years ago who was absolutely certain she experienced the visions of Revelation, and from time to time also certain she had drawn God’s anger upon her. It resulted in her son wanting nothing to do with the congregation for his entire childhood.

[Cool Cat]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

That is what I’m saying. But the hallucinations are not what you are after when using them in a medical setting. You are also not excepted to set yourself in contact with the spirit realm. I feel the discussion is getting a bit circular, and that’s unnecessary, so let’s stop here.

I agree, I don't think we are getting anywhere. 

[hatcheckgirl]

The resetting of the mind is a good thing, but it’s how you go about it. Freeing up your mind will leave you open to outside influences, and that includes demonic influences. That’s what you allow a hypnotist to do to you, when you free up your mind and they have some sort of control over you to make suggestions to stop smoking, etc.

 

Medical use of opiates alleviate pain, but do they actually free up the brain in the same way as mushrooms? I don’t know, never having experienced drug taking, so I’m asking if it works that way. Because to me, physical pain relief using controlled amount of opiates is different from mind manipulating chemicals that alter your state of mind in ways that mushrooms or lsd do. I have taken anti depressants, but they don’t 'open your mind up', but dampen anxieties while lifting mood. That’s also not the same as a halucigenic trip.

 

To my way of thinking, having lived with someone who took heavy drugs in his life and they affects of how it left him, and hearing your comments from you brothers who have escaped from drugs, it seems to buy more trouble than good.

 

You can’t solve really entrenched problems in this system with man-made solutions. There’s always side-effects that you didn’t bargain for.  In this case, too close to demonic influence to outweigh any benefits.