Original Hebrew name of God found

[carlos]

12 minutes ago, skipdaflip said:

I'm sorry for my last post. I misunderstood your comment. Now I read it over again, and I'll see that you meant that it will always be 4 consonants. So don't mention the quote.

 

No problem. Yes, I meant that no matter which vowels you put in God's name, it always has four letters.

 

 

Thanks for the quotation, it's really interesting. I need to read that book.

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by carlos

[Lewis]

14 hours ago, digital_dreamer said:

Oh! Thanks! I’ve seen this before.

Is there a version with English subtitles? 

 

You can purchase this documentary from the site I have listed below, it will have sub titles option. Best I found.

 

http://www.dreilindenfilm.de/shop/der-name-gottes_en.html

[BroJPM]

7 hours ago, carlos said:

 

Jean Pierre, I am not following your logic. I mean, in the Masoretic text Jehovah's name is vocalized as "Yehowah". And in these one thousand scrolls, it is vocalized the same. So what's the mistake? Could you explain it a bit more, please?

 

Regarding the story of YeHoWaH having the letters of Adonai, it doesn't make sense to me. I know it has appeared in our publications, because the brothers simply repeated what scholars affirmed, but I don't believe it's true. So they put the vowels of Adonai, but changed one of them? Why not the vowels of "potato" but changed all three? Doesn't make sense. What is the evidence for that story? Do we have contemporary records explaining they did that and why, or is it simply a conclusion some scholar reached centuries later and that everybody parrots not to seem ignorant? My (absolutely non-scholarly) opinion is that the Masoretic text simply reflects the way the Name was pronounced.

 

 

Yes what you are saying about the vowels are interesting, I can’t say why they changed the one but that is a excellent question! The whole debate over W/V I am not to worried about as you say things change in different languages. I found this just on that YRM group where this question was asked with a answer from yrm:

 

Nehemia Gordon, a Karaite Jew, has now discovered over 1,000 manuscripts with the proper pronunciation Yehovah. Considering this newfound evidence, why do you continue to use Yahweh?

Posted on January 24, 2018 by YRM

 

     Nehemia Gordon, a Karaite Jew, has now discovered over 1,000 manuscripts with the proper pronunciation Yehovah. Considering this newfound evidence, why do you continue to use Yahweh?

     There are several facts to acknowledge regarding Nehemia Gordon’s “new” finding. To begin with, all these Hebrew documents with the vowel points forming Yehovah are from the 9th century or later and part of the Masoretic manuscripts. According to the overwhelming majority of scholarship, the Masoretes purposefully added the vowel points from Adonai to the Tetragrammaton, forming the hybrid Yehovah (also rendered as Yehowah or Jehovah). In the history of the Ministry, we have actually never seen a scholarly reference confirming Yehovah.

Consider the following: “In the early Middle Ages, when the consonantal text of the Bible was supplied with vowel points to facilitate its correct traditional reading, the vowel points for Adonai with one variation – a sheva (short ‘e’) with the first yod [Y] of YHWH instead of the hataf-patah (short ‘a’) under the aleph of Adonai – was used for YHWH, thus producing the form YeHoWaH. When Christian scholars of Europe first began to study Hebrew they did not understand what this really meant, and they introduced the hybrid name ‘Jehovah’” (Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 7, p. 680).

“Jehovah, modern form of the Hebrew sacred name of God, probably originally ‘Yahweh.’ From c.300 B.C. the Jews, from motives of piety, uttered the name of God very rarely and eventually not at all, but substituted the title ‘Adonai,’ meaning ‘Lord,’ the vowels of which were written under the consonants of ‘Yahweh.’ In the Middle Ages and later, the vowels of one word with the consonants of the other were misread as Jehovah” (The Collegiate Encyclopedia, vol. 9, p. 580).

“Jehovah….What has been said explains the so-called qeri perpetuum, according to which the consonants of Jehovah are always accompanied in the Hebrew text by the vowels of Adonai except in the cases in which Adonai stands in apposition to Jehovah: in these cases the vowels of Elohim are substituted. The use of a simple shewa in the first syllable of Jehovah, instead of the compound shewa in the corresponding syllable of Adonai and Elohim, is required by the rules of Hebrew grammar governing the use of Shewa” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. VIII, p. 329).

“Jehovah, an erroneous pronunciation of the name of the God of Israel in the Bible, due to pronouncing the vowels of the term ‘Adonay,’ the marginal Masoretic reading with the consonants of the text-reading ‘Yahweh,’ which was not uttered to avoid the profanation of the divine name of magical or other blasphemous purposes. Hence the substitution of ‘Adonay,’ the ‘Lord,’ or ‘Adonay Elohim,’ ‘Lord God.’ The oldest Greek versions use the term ‘Kurios,’ ‘Lord,’ the exact translation of the current Jewish substitute for the original Tetragrammaton Yahweh. The reading ‘Jehovah’ can be traced to the early Middle Ages and until lately was said to have been invented by Peter Gallatin (1518), confessor of Pope Leo X. Recent writers, however, trace it to an earlier date; it is found in Raymond Martin’s Pugeo Fidei (1270)” (Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 16, p. 8.).

“The pronunciation you mentioned [i.e., Yehovah] is a mistake. The Hebrew consonantal text is YHWH and no one really knows how that was pronounced in Old Testament times. At a later date (the latter half of the 2nd millennium CE) Masoretes added vowel signs to the consonantal text. Whenever the Tetragrammaton was written, they added the vowel signs of the word “Adonay,” which means “My Lord” – there was a taboo on pronouncing the Divine name and one was supposed to read the word “Adonay – my Lord.” Much later some started reading the vowel signs together with YHWH and came up with the nonsensical word Jehovah” (email correspondence between Professor Fassberg and Pastor Randy Folliard). Note: Professor Fassberg, Ph.D., is one of the leading professors at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem within its Hebrew language department.

In addition to the fact that scholarship nearly universally confirms that the Masoretes added the vowel points from Adonai to the Tetragrammaton, another issue with Yehovah is that there are other variants based on the vowel pointing within the Masoretic manuscripts. For example, the Leningrad Codex contains at least six different spellings for the divine name. Similar evidence can also be found within the Aleppo and other codices. The fact that we find different pronunciations within the Masoretic manuscripts confirms that they cannot be trusted.

Another issue with Yehovah and this claim of a 1,000 manuscripts is that the pronunciation Yahweh is confirmed within Greek documents from church fathers and Gnostic writings 700 years before the Masoretic documents.

One such example from the Gnostic library is The Secret Book of John. Within this codex, it mentions the name Yahweh and notes, “Eloim and Yawe, two names of God in the Hebrew scriptures…. Yahweh is the name of God (based on the Tetragrammaton, the ineffable four-letter name)” (Dr. Marvin Meyer, The Nag Hammadi Scriptures, p. 127).

The Secret Book of John dates to the second century, as it was known to the church father Irenaeus. This was the same timeframe as Clement of Alexandria, who also confirmed the name. Even though Gnosticism was rightly deemed heretical by the early church, it is another witness to the pronunciation of Yahweh. The fact that these groups were at odds, but agreed on “Yahweh,” is significant and adds credence to this pronunciation. It verifies that “Yahweh” was widely recognized as early as the second century.

Evidence for the short form “Yah” is also found in early Greek documents of the Septuagint, part of the Dead Sea collection, dating to 1 BCE.

Another concern regarding this claim is the man making the claim. By his own admission, Nehemia Gordon rejects the Messiah. As found in 1 John 2:21-23: “I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Yahshua is the Messiah? He is antimessiah, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Based on these facts, the number of manuscripts found with the vowel points of Yehovah is irrelevant. Scholarship confirms that Yehovah is a hybrid that arose through the vowel points of Adonai. Additionally, antiquity confirms the pronunciation Yahweh through Greek inscriptions dating back to the 2nd century CE, 700 years before any manuscript containing Yehovah.

For additional information, read our online article: The Yehovah Deception.”

 

 

This topic is a touchy one for some and can easily turn docmatic as I am sure we can see, YRM believes the true way to say Gods name is Yahweh and they can also take all the comments from sources that fit their argument. Same can be said of others. Let’s be glad that we can have a personal relationship with our creator and that he has given the faithful slave to help us reason on the matter. We can use whatever form is excepted in our language and we can look to the future to see how the name was pronounced. Also let us not get caught up on such details the point is God has a personal name and we should use it.

 

i would love to know why scholars say Adonai was mixed with YHWH and why only one change was made. If any one knows please let us know, I will see if i find any thing on this. 

 

Agapé

[RodLS45]

As an Hebrew scholar with 2 earned certificates from The Hebrew University in Jerusalem, in all humility, I would like to point out some technical issues:

The leading letter of the tetragrammaton is the "yod", equivalent to the English "Y". In German it is "J" as in "Ja" (yes)

The second & fourth letters are equivalent to the English "h"

The third letter is the complex issue because it can simply be a vowel (mater lectionis) sounding like "oh" or "oo", but in this case it is most likely a consonant.

In Ashkenazi pronunciation (European) it is pronounced as a "v", but the more ancient Sephardi pronunciation it is a "w"

The vowel pointing under the "yod" indicates an absence of any vowel (sometimes indicated by an up-side-down "e"). There is a dot on top of the "waw" which is "oh" & the tiny "T" underneath indicates a low "ah" sound similar to South African usage: "Mark" sounding a little like "Mork"!

Therefore, in view of the above, the pronunciation could be: "y'howah"

This is not the accepted Jewish pronunciation, heard after Yom Kippur in Jerusalem . . ."Yahweh"

However Nechemya Gordon could be right - who knows?

[scholar JW]

RodLS45

 

Brilliant M'lud! Keep up the good work.

 

scholar JW emeritus

[➕👇 ꓤꓱꓷꓠꓵ🎵Tone]

We at least agree that God has a personal name written thousands of times in thousands of documents. I'm glad the F&DS can sift and sort it for us. After reading the last few documents, it seems to me that it may be some time before all intelligent creation will be of one mind.
Side-note, we had a visitor from LDC working on our project from South Africa. His name was Mark, (pronounced Mork - see above). Regardless of how we pronounced it, he still responded... food for thought...

Older
{still waiting for the 'Wiser'}

[carlos]

On 1/28/2018 at 9:41 PM, BroJPM said:

This topic is a touchy one for some and can easily turn docmatic as I am sure we can see, YRM believes the true way to say Gods name is Yahweh and they can also take all the comments from sources that fit their argument. Same can be said of others. Let’s be glad that we can have a personal relationship with our creator and that he has given the faithful slave to help us reason on the matter. We can use whatever form is excepted in our language and we can look to the future to see how the name was pronounced. Also let us not get caught up on such details the point is God has a personal name and we should use it.

 

Agreed 100%. Say Jehovah, say Yahweh, or as you wish, but use God's name!

 

As you say, there is a lot of contradictory information about this subject, and every one will only mention the facts that support their side. With all that, I still think there's a good case for the pronunciation "Yehowah" although we cannot know for certain.

 

On 1/28/2018 at 9:41 PM, BroJPM said:

i would love to know why scholars say Adonai was mixed with YHWH and why only one change was made. If any one knows please let us know, I will see if i find any thing on this. 

 

I'm very interested in this too. Let's share here any info we find. The little research I've done didn't throw any light on this. It seems everybody takes for granted that "Jehovah" has the vowels from Adonai but no one can point to a reliable source to prove it. My personal theory is that some enlightened scholar concluded that was the case and everybody followed along. We have seen that happen with many other theories, such as the Documentary Hypothesis, the Q source or even the evolution of species.

 

[RodLS45]

TonyWenz - Xai!

"food for thought"? - the reason that I mentioned "Mark" is that I once had a very friendly call in Dover Heights (N.S.W.) who introduced himself as "Mork" & then apologised for his accent. The normal aspiration of the "ah" sound that one hears can be likened to the "call of the crow" (raven) often heard here in Australia.

Whereas the vowel-pointing that Nechemya Gordon reports is vocalised just like the South African accent.

This morning, during Field Service, I discussed the question with a Sister originally from the R.S.A. & she found the whole matter quite amusing.

L'hitra'ot!

[RodLS45]

Brother Carlos - ¿Cómo estás?

Not wanting to "ruffle feathers" or "rattle cages" (I know how easy that is to do), I was urged to comment on the matter at hand.

During my sojourn in Israel, I developed a serious interest in Biblical Hebrew & had a personal tutor for some years: the late Dr. Hassopher.

Currently, I have a weekly lesson via the internet from Eliyahu Dahan M.A. who teaches Biblical Hebrew in Jerusalem.

I do not presume to know the exact pronunciation of "The Name" but simply added some observations.

In fact, it could be argued that when the Divine Name is part of another name it has the "oo' sound:

Eliyahu (Elijah), Isha'yahu (Isaiah) & so on . . . .

In my decades of service as an elder (currently Secretary), I know how some are not comfortable with this sort of discussion, 

but should that mean that one cannot express an opinion on such an absorbing subject?

In the future, according to the prophetic word, everyone alive will know the exact pronunciation.

Until then, 

¡Dios sea contigo!

 

[skipdaflip]

8 hours ago, carlos said:

 

Agreed 100%. Say Jehovah, say Yahweh, or as you wish, but use God's name!

 

As you say, there is a lot of contradictory information about this subject, and every one will only mention the facts that support their side. With all that, I still think there's a good case for the pronunciation "Yehowah" although we cannot know for certain.

 

 

I'm very interested in this too. Let's share here any info we find. The little research I've done didn't throw any light on this. It seems everybody takes for granted that "Jehovah" has the vowels from Adonai but no one can point to a reliable source to prove it. My personal theory is that some enlightened scholar concluded that was the case and everybody followed along. We have seen that happen with many other theories, such as the Documentary Hypothesis, the Q source or even the evolution of species.

 

 

@carlos

Sorry my brother... i didn't want to quote you but @BroJPM

 

I'm sorry to mention this again, but I can recommend you to read the book of Nehemiah Gordon. He explains why adonai is used within the tetragrammaton. Then you'll get more answers. 

My personal opinion witty reading his book is that he's right. But my critical note is that he now says that he found the name and is pronounced as yehovah. (When they speak it, it sounds like ge-howah). And that he mocks about the y instead of the j.

 

The GB is wise and knows we can't all speak it this way and that Jehovah doesn't expect us to do so. Jehovah only wants us to use his name.

 

The book that Nehemiah wrote declares a lot about the name, why it probably in first place got hidden. Even an interesting part of false worship that I liked a lot. And adonai etc. Im not promoting the book, but with all these questions it would be very interesting to read his book.

 

That he found 1000 scrolls with the name of yehovah doesn't make warm. Cause these scrolls where already there, and they all read it before. Every young Jew that goes to bible university in Jerusalem gets the task to translate the Torah from the original scrolls into their current language once at a generation. So they see the name all the time in their original form. But no questions it why must be written. 

This was exactly the start of Nehemiah his journey.

 

I can certainly can advice the book. Because it gives really much background information.

 

Btw... i'll place the explanation of adonai in here from Nehemia. But I'll do this tonight after the family study. So you have to wait for another 10 hours 

Edited January 30, 2018 by skipdaflip

[➕👇 ꓤꓱꓷꓠꓵ🎵Tone]

Just had to check my dates. Please correct me if I misunderstand. The Masoretes earliest copies date around 1008/9 CE (App A3). So that is still quite some centuries after the original writings along with their vowel marks and accepted pronunciation.
Is it possible though, that a very influential Masorete made a decision to go in one direction, and from that time forward - maybe even for centuries thereafter - this was the accepted way, written by 1,000's.
My question is, what is the earliest notation of these vowel marks, and the hint of 3 syllables. I accept, 1,000+ finds is quite a find, but if they all come from the same point forward... what basis is there for earlier support?
Do any of the Dead Sea scrolls have this particular set of vowel points?
Once again, not wanting to upset anyone, either unintentionally or by my ignorance. I'm not a scholarly student (like some above), but I am interested in this topic. There is a lot of support for a 3rd syllable and 'o', (shich I lean toward), but that alone does not make it right...
btw- I did enjoy Geoffrey Jackson's broadcast very early in the piece, when he went through the many pronunciations of the name.

Older
{still waiting for the 'Wiser'}

[1MKnight]

On 1/27/2018 at 9:29 AM, carlos said:

that documentary here:

https://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/30136-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah/

 

Just watched. That's a great video

I really appreaciated the point about satan never using the Name and it indicating what using that name means about your relationship.

[Stoffer]

18 hours ago, carlos said:

t seems everybody takes for granted that "Jehovah" has the vowels from Adonai but no one can point to a reliable source to prove it.

Wasn't this in the old blue "Aid To Bible Understanding" book?

[pnutts]

9 hours ago, TonyWenz said:

Do any of the Dead Sea scrolls have this particular set of vowel points?

Nope. Dead Sea Scrolls pre-dates vowel points by several centuries.

[Stoffer]

On 28/01/2018 at 9:41 PM, BroJPM said:

i would love to know why scholars say Adonai was mixed with YHWH and why only one change was made. If any one knows please let us know, I will see if i find any thing on this.

Here you go. From our Aid To Bible Understanding book (ad 1971), pages 884 and 885. I loved using this back in the day for personal study and assignments. If anyone wants a copy by the way, just let me know and I’ll make it available to download on my server (it’s no longer in print so that won’t be breaking any copyright laws.

 

I’ve attached the relevant pages in a screenshot but in case you can’t view it, here’s the pithy details:

 

Quote

The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”

 

By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho.nay’ and ‘Elo.him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations Yeho.wah’ and Yeho.wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinized form “Jehova(h).” The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270.

...

Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favour of some other suggested pronunciation.

 

I hope this resolves your query.

[skipdaflip]

Amazon reader doesn't allow me to copy any line from it's book. So I had to copy it by hand! Here's a part directly taken from the book about when and why Nehemiah thinks that

the name of God may not used anymore. There is more to find in his book, but I can't copy it all.

 

Quote

The gaunt Galilean preacher drags a large wooden beam
down the center of the narrow village street. One end of the
beam weighs heavily on this right shoulder causing him to
hunch over. The other end scrapes along the ground, cutting
its way through filth. The preacher’s left eye is swollen shut
from an earlier beating. Villagers line the street, some
shouting curses at the preacher, others weeping over his
plight. A roman soldier steps out of the crowd, swinging a
whip through the air. The whip cracks as it breaks the sound
barrier, sending a small startled dog fleeing down a side-
alley. The whip comes down hard on the preacher’s back,
spraying bystanders with droplets of blood. A passerby is
pressed into service to help carry the heavy beam. When
they reach the top of the hill just outside the village, the
preacher collapses. Two Roman soldiers secure him to the
wooden beam as a satisfied centurion looks on. The soldiers
plant one end of the beam in a small hole hewn in the rock
and raise the other end with ropes. Today’s execution is a
rabbi. His name: Hanina ben Teradion. The method of
execution: buring at the stake. The crime: speaking the
name of the Jewish God in public.

When I came across the story of Rabbi Hanina ben
Teradion, I couldn’t believe it. The Talmud relates that the
Romans executed this rabbi sometime between 130 and 138
ce during the reign of the emperor Hadrian, who issued a
series of decrees designed to eradicate the Jewish faith. Rabbi
Hanina was martyred during these persecutions after
speaking the name of God in public, as the Talmud reports:

The [Romans] brought forth Rabbi Hanina ben
               Teradion and asked him, “Why did you engage in the
               study of the Torah?” He answered, “Because the
               Lord my God commanded me.” They immediately
               sentenced him to be burned… They sentenced him to
               be burned because he used to pronounce the name
               the way it is written…[127]

The Romans executed Rabbi Hanina for publicly teaching
the Torah. During his illegal lessons, Rabbi Hanina “used to
pronounce the name the way it is written.” This transgression
earned him a particularly visious mode of execution, as the
Talmud further relates:

               They took hold of him, wrapped him in a Torah
               Scroll, surrounded him in bundles of branches and
               set them on fire. They also brought tufts of wool,
               which they had soaked in water, and placed them
               over his hearth, so that he should not expire
               quickly.[128]

[ PHOTO OF TOMB WHERE RABBI HANINA IS BURIED ]

The story of Rabbi Hanina puzzled later rabbis. By the 3^rd
Century, the pronunciation of God’s name had become a
secret and they couldn’t understand why this martyred rabbi
would speak it publicly a hundred years earlier. They believed
it acceptable for Rabbi Hanina to speak God’s name in the
secrecy of a private Torah teaching but not in a public lesson.
According to these later rabbis, it was God who was offended
by this and who sentenced Rabbi Hanina to be burned alive at
the hand of the Romans.[129]

This later rabbinical explanation notwhithstanding, there
was no disputing that Rabbi Hanina “used to pronounce the
name the way it is written,” meaning he spoke the name of
Yehovah in public on multiple occasions. Another rabbinical
source corroborated that it was commonplace in the period of
the Hadrianic persecutions of Jews to pronounce the
Tetragrammaton.[130] Evidently, the Romans wanted to put a
stop to this, so they made an example of Rabbi Hanina.

I was a little confused why the Romans would care about a
Jew speaking God’s holy name until I came across an early
rabbinical report about the Greek persecutions during the
time of the Maccabees, three hundred years before Hadrian:

The Greeks made decrees to eradicate Israel,
               ordering them to deny the kingdom of heaven, to
               declare that they have no portion with the God of
               Israel, and not to mention the heavenly name on

               Their lips.[131]

               I knew Hadrian patterned his anti-Jewish decrees after
those of the Greeks and he must have also banned speaking
God’s heavenly name as the Greeks did.

               I was shocked to learn that the ban on speaking God’s
name started out as a Roman decree. I needed to know when
the rabbis adopted this Roman ban and why. I eventually
discovered that the earliest rabbinical teaching against
speaking God’s name dated to shortly after Rabbi Hanina’s
martyrdom. This new ruling appeared in the name of Abba
Saul, one of the rabbis to survive the Hadrianic
persecutions.[132] I couldn’t believe this was a coincidence.
Here, I have to humble myself as a Karaite Jew and give
credit to the rabbis for something they brilliantly
accomplished. One of the ways the rabbis preserved the
Jewish people during millennia of persecution was by
adapting to the changing circumstances of foreign occupation
and dispersion. This is a survival strategy I have mixed
feelings about, but I can’t deny it worked.

               An early example of this strategy is the teaching that a
rabbinical court should never impose the death penalty more
than once in seventy years.[133] This teaching was supported
by a series of interpretations that made it virtually impossible
to sentence someone to death in a rabbinical court. These
rulings coincided with the Roman subjugation of Judea,
which stripped the rabbis of the authority to carry out the
death penalty.[134] Other famous examples are the Calendar
Reform of Hillel II in 359 ce and the “Takanot of Rabbenu
Gershom” in the 10^th Century, both of which adapted
rabbinical law to the limitations imposed by despotic foreign
rule.

               The rabbinical ban on using God’s name in public may have
been a similar adaptation. After the martyrdom of Rabbi
Hanina, the rabbis had to make a choice between losing an
entire generation of Jewish leaders or adapting to the Roman
prohibition against speaking God’s name. In private, the
rabbis continued to “transmit the four-letter name to their
disciples once in a seven-year period.”[135] However, in
public, in earshot of Roman collaborators, they replaced
God’s name with Adonai (Lord).

               The ban on the name put the kohanim, the Aaronic priests,
in a difficult position. God commanded them to place His
holy name over the people during the Priestly Blessing, but
the rabbis forbade them to speak it. They eventually found an
ingenious workaround through a unique hand gesture they
made when reciting the blessing. It was the same hand
gesture Mr. Spock used to make in the old Star Trek series -
but with both hands. This was more than a coincidence. The
actor who played Spock was a Jew who saw the kohanim
display this in the synagogue as a child. He even combined it
with his own Vulcan version of the Priestly Blessing: “Live
long and prosper!”[136] I chuckled when I thought about this.
In the most abstract terms, this really was the basic message
of the ancient Hebrew blessing from the Book of Numbers,
long life and prosperity.

[127] Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 17b-18a.
[128] Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 18a.
[129] Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 18a.
[130] Midrash Psalms on Psalms 36:7[8]
[131] Scholion on Megilat Taánit, 3^rd of Tishrei.
[132] Mishnah, Sanhedrin 10:1.
[133] Mishnah, Makkot 1:10
[134] Ethics of the Fathers, 1:9; Mishnah, Makkot 1:10
[135] Babylonian Talmud, Kidushin 71a.
[136] Star Trek, created by Gene Roddenberry, 1966-1969

 

[skipdaflip]

Here another interesting part. 

 

Quote

 

One Hebrew Bible that caught my attention was a scientific edition I used for my university studies. It was a Bible printed in Germany called the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia or BHS for short. What I liked about the BHS was that it was based on an important manuscript of the Bible in Hebrew called the Leningrad Codex. When I looked at God’s name in the BHS, I noticed it never had the vowels of Adonai. The vowels of Adonai are A-O-A (chataf-patach–cholam–kamatz)—the final “i” in Adonai is actually a consonant in Hebrew. Putting the vowels A-O-A into the consonants of God’s name would create the hybrid form “Yahovah” . However, I kept finding God’s name written in the BHS as “Yehvah” with the vowels E-A (shva–kamatz).

 

My experience with how freely the vowels of God’s name changed in other Bible printings made me skeptical, so I decided I couldn’t just rely on the BHS. This version was supposed to be based on the Leningrad Codex, and I needed to check this manuscript for myself. The Leningrad Codex was copied in Cairo around the year 1009 ce, making it the oldest surviving manuscript of the entire Hebrew Bible. Other manuscripts that were older did exist, but they were all missing sections. I wasn’t about to fly off to Leningrad in Russia, but knew the university library had a facsimile edition with photographs of every page of the manuscript. A quick examination proved the BHS was faithfully reproducing the Leningrad Codex when it came to God’s name.

 

As I examined page after page of the Leningrad Codex, it dawned on me just how big this was. The reason for all the uncertainty about pronouncing God’s name was that the Jewish scribes supposedly inserted the vowels of Adonai into the consonants Yod-Hay-Vav-Hay. This was “common knowledge.” However, “Yehvah” obviously didn’t contain the vowels of Adonai. So it may have been common knowledge, but it was factually untrue.[101]

 

There was one nagging problem with my new discovery. The vowels I found in the BHS and the Leningrad Codex were impossible. Pronouncing God’s name as Yehvah defies a basic rule of Biblical Hebrew. In ancient Hebrew, a consonant in the middle of a word has to have a vowel associated with it. The problem was that the first hay in “Yehvah” did not have any vowel associated with it.[102] One common exception to this rule is a consonant that ends a syllable. In this case, the consonant is marked with a special symbol called a silent-shva to indicate that it has no vowel. For the pronunciation Yehvah to be valid, the first hay would have to be marked with a silent-shva.[103] It wasn’t. This wasn’t some minor glitch. It was the proverbial elephant in the room. Any ancient Hebrew reader who saw the word Yehvah written without a vowel or silent-shva in the first hay would know there was a missing vowel in God’s name.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by carlos
Added the quotation box, so that it doesn't seem those are Kim's words.

[Old]

1 hour ago, Stoffer said:

Here you go. From our Aid To Bible Understanding book (ad 1971), pages 884 and 885. I loved using this back in the day for personal study and assignments. If anyone wants a copy by the way, just let me know and I’ll make it available to download on my server (it’s no longer in print so that won’t be breaking any copyright laws.

 

 

I am curious, why you choose to use our older Aid to Bible Understanding (1971) in place of our Insight on the Scriptures volumes (1988)?  The Insight On The Scriptures corrected some errors that had been included in the AID book as well presenting a more current understanding. 

I am sure there is a good reason why a new set of volumes was released to replace the Aid book.

Also, as to your statement "If anyone wants a copy by the way, just let me know and I’ll make it available to download on my server (it’s no longer in print so that won’t be breaking any copyright laws.)" is not necessarily correct. According to Wikipedia "Typically, the duration of a copyright spans the author's life plus 50 to 100 years (that is, copyright typically expires 50 to 100 years after the author dies, depending on the jurisdiction). Being out of print does not invalidate the copyright, at least in the US. So even if the copyright was not renewed it will still be under copyright for 3 more years or 53 more years depending on the interpretation of the statute. At one time our organization informed all of us that copying and distributing WT publications was in violation of their copyrights. (Remember Qsearch?)

[Stoffer]

3 minutes ago, Old said:

I am curious, why you choose to use our older Aid to Bible Understanding (1971) in place of our Insight on the Scriptures volumes (1988)?  The Insight On The Scriptures corrected some errors that had been included in the AID book as well presenting a more current understanding. 

Because I’m old school and that’s what springs to mind immediately. Both Carlos and Jean Pierre asked for a legitimate source where it states how the vowels came to be used for the name Jehovah. As far as I know this hasn’t been included in the Insight books, along with a lot of other material but it doesn’t mean it is wrong. If it were, surely it would have been corrected there but history is history. It’s rather similar to the Kingdom Rules book. Yes it’s a replacement for the Proclaimers book and does contain some modified teachings but it in no way invalidates the Proclaimers book, the same way as the Insight book doesn’t invalidate the Aid book, which I was brought up using. No ulterior motive my brother. Following your viewpoint then, I should destroy everything I own (my theocratic Library I mean) that’s no longer in print and neither should the Society quote from their older publications? Maybe I’ve misunderstood you there though.

 

As for copyright, how else would people get hold of older spiritual food? I’ve also made available the old Kingdom songs and songbooks that many of us were raised on. They were not available anywhere else and I even spent my valuable time converting vinyl to MP3 but I don’t see anyone questioning me about that. If I get a letter from Watchtower solicitors/lawyers then I’ll gladly remove them both to comply legally and with theocratic direction. However, if we all apply the letter of the law rather than the spirit (as did Jesus) then many of us wouldn’t have access to older publications and certainly none of us should photocopy, scan or lend ANYTHING produced by the Society as that also constitutes breach of copyright. It all depends on what the purpose is in sharing, in my opinion.

[Stoffer]

1 hour ago, skipdaflip said:

It was the same hand
gesture Mr. Spock used to make in the old Star Trek series -
but with both hands. This was more than a coincidence. The
actor who played Spock was a Jew who saw the kohanim
display this in the synagogue as a child.

I knew this but it’s still great when someone shares this as I’m a huge Star Trek fan. Hoping to meet the originals that have passed away in the New System

[Old]

37 minutes ago, Stoffer said:

Because I’m old school and that’s what springs to mind immediately. Both Carlos and Jean Pierre asked for a legitimate source where it states how the vowels came to be used for the name Jehovah. As far as I know this hasn’t been included in the Insight books, along with a lot of other material but it doesn’t mean it is wrong. If it were, surely it would have been corrected there but history is history. It’s rather similar to the Kingdom Rules book. Yes it’s a replacement for the Proclaimers book and does contain some modified teachings but it in no way invalidates the Proclaimers book, the same way as the Insight book doesn’t invalidate the Aid book, which I was brought up using. No ulterior motive my brother. Following your viewpoint then, I should destroy everything I own (my theocratic Library I mean) that’s no longer in print and neither should the Society quote from their older publications? Maybe I’ve misunderstood you there though.

 

As for copyright, how else would people get hold of older spiritual food? I’ve also made available the old Kingdom songs and songbooks that many of us were raised on. They were not available anywhere else and I even spent my valuable time converting vinyl to MP3 but I don’t see anyone questioning me about that. If I get a letter from Watchtower solicitors/lawyers then I’ll gladly remove them both to comply legally and with theocratic direction. However, if we all apply the letter of the law rather than the spirit (as did Jesus) then many of us wouldn’t have access to older publications and certainly none of us should photocopy, scan or lend ANYTHING produced by the Society as that also constitutes breach of copyright. It all depends on what the purpose is in sharing, in my opinion.

4

Yes, you have misunderstood me, there is no reason not to research older publications. I was merely inquiring your reasoning for using the Aid book over a publication that replaced it. It is unlikely you hear that publication cited from any of our platforms except as a comparison with newer understanding.

I guess there might be a need for people to get hold of older spiritual food, but I think it is usually out of historical curiosity, again I have no problem  

You will not get a letter from Watchtower for distributing copies of our older, but still copyrighted publications, with the possible exception that you start charging for them. Years ago when we were informed that distributing copyrighted material was in conflict the WTs copyright no actual case was made.

In the US, if you have a publication legitimately acquired you can also have it in any form that you chose to convert it to. What you do not have is a legal right, as opposed to a moral right, which is what you appear to be claiming, again no problem. I was only pointing out to you the fallacy of your statement that there was no copyright issue "because it is out of print." There is still a copyright issue but it is always up to the holder of the copyright to enforce it or not. If you were taken to court you would lose.

The only case I know of where the WT took a stand to enforce a copyright was with a priest in South America who was guilty of copying verbatim whole articles from the WT and citing them as his own. He did get a cease an desist order, which he obeyed, he then left the Church and became one of our brothers.

[carlos]

18 hours ago, RodLS45 said:

In fact, it could be argued that when the Divine Name is part of another name it has the "oo' sound:

Eliyahu (Elijah), Isha'yahu (Isaiah) & so on . . . .

18 hours ago, RodLS45 said:

n my decades of service as an elder (currently Secretary), I know how some are not comfortable with this sort of discussion, 

but should that mean that one cannot express an opinion on such an absorbing subject?

 

Rodney, thanks for your participation. You can see we are not uncomfortable discussing this subject. We love this kind of discussion.

 

It's true that in teophoric names that include God's name as a suffix it takes the form -"yah" or "-yahu". But when they contain God's name as a preffix, it always has the form "Yeho-", so you could say that the evidence is the same for both variants. It has been suggested that the "-yah" ending might not represent the Tetragrammaton, but the abbreviated form Yah which is found so often in the Hebrew Scriptures. On the other hand, if the Name was "Yahweh", what is the explanation for the "Yeho-" forms?

 

15 hours ago, skipdaflip said:

I'm sorry to mention this again, but I can recommend you to read the book of Nehemiah Gordon. He explains why adonai is used within the tetragrammaton. Then you'll get more answers. 

 

Thanks, Kim, I have included that book in my read least.

 

15 hours ago, TonyWenz said:

My question is, what is the earliest notation of these vowel marks, and the hint of 3 syllables. I accept, 1,000+ finds is quite a find, but if they all come from the same point forward... what basis is there for earlier support?
Do any of the Dead Sea scrolls have this particular set of vowel points?

 

Tony, that is a very good reasoning. If all the evidences come from the same source, then they are not 1000 witnesses, but only one. So the key point would be if all those manuscripts come from the same source or are independent witnesses. I don't know the answer, I haven't studied the subject.

 

At the time the Dead Sea scrolls were written (1st/2nd century BCE) Hebrew was written only with consonants. Vowel points were invented many centuries later, around the 6th or 7th centuries CE (that's some 800 years later). The Masoretes who devised the vowel signs added them to the Bible text to reflect the pronunciation that they believed was more correct. Interestingly, no one argues that the Masoretic vowels for any name are wrong, except in the case of the Tetragrammaton. Isn't that surprising? Another significant detail is that there are hundreds of names in the Hebrew Scriptures that begin with God's name and, in all cases without exception, the Masoretes vocalized them as Yeho- (Yehoiakim ["Jehovah raises up"], Yehonathan ["Jehovah has given"], Yehoram ["Jehovah is exalted"] and so on). That's a strong argument in favor of the Yehovah form.

 

6 hours ago, Stoffer said:

Wasn't this in the old blue "Aid To Bible Understanding" book?

 

Thanks for the screenshot, Christopher. Yes, this explanation was in the old Aid book and is repeated in the most recent Insight. But again, that doesn't make it true. The Slave is not an authority in Linguistics or science. When they talk about science, they have to rely on what the experts say. For decades most experts have repeated as parrots that Jehovah is YHWH with the vowels of Adonai, so the brothers quoted that theory. More recent research seems to indicate that explanation might not be well based.

 

 

[carlos]

3 hours ago, skipdaflip said:

As I examined page after page of the Leningrad Codex, it dawned on me just how big this was. The reason for all the uncertainty about pronouncing God’s name was that the Jewish scribes supposedly inserted the vowels of Adonai into the consonants Yod-Hay-Vav-Hay. This was “common knowledge.” However, “Yehvah” obviously didn’t contain the vowels of Adonai. So it may have been common knowledge, but it was factually untrue.[101]

 

Thanks, thanks, thanks! This is what I have been trying to express all the time. For years I thought there must be something I'm not understanding because the vowels in Jehovah are obviously not those in Adonai, but no one else seemed to notice it. So glad that at last an scholar realizes that the emperor has no clothes!

[carlos]

Friends, please stop hijacking this thread with copyright questions and the like. Please.

 

If there's a point you need to discuss you are invited to do it privately.

 

Thanks for your collaboration!

[Old]

Sorry, I thought I was collaborating.