Mass shooting in New Zealand

[lord-360]

24 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/morrison-pleads-for-end-to-mindless-tribalism-announces-55-million-safety-upgrades-for-places-of-worship

 

In a speech to the Australia-Israel Chamber of Commerce in Melbourne, Mr Morrison announced $55 million for safety upgrades that will give priority to religious schools and places of worship.

 

The grants will be available for CCTV cameras, lighting, fencing, bollards and alarms.  

 

Interesting.

Makes me think about how timely the governing body is on setting up security measures. If a situation like this were to happen at a kingdom hall the security cameras and locked doors could be very vital in saving lives 

[ChocoBro]

12 minutes ago, lord-360 said:

Makes me think about how timely the governing body is on setting up security measures. If a situation like this were to happen at a kingdom hall the security cameras and locked doors could be very vital in saving lives 

 

Security cameras and locked doors can help, but the most important thing is having trained and vigilant personnel handling the equipment and a plan on how to react when an active shooter scenario develops. In our Hall, I really can't imagine the brothers doing the security have any form of de-escalation let alone anti-terror training, and I sincerely doubt we have an escape plan in place if I look at how lax we handle the LDC maintenance requirements. If we had a security camera facing the parking lot I imagine the brothers handling the audio equipment would probably have an easygoing mentality about it as they do with a lot of responsibilities, sadly.

 

[Tortuga]

5 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

 

Security cameras and locked doors can help, but the most important thing is having trained and vigilant personnel handling the equipment and a plan on how to react when an active shooter scenario develops. In our Hall, I really can't imagine the brothers doing the security have any form of de-escalation let alone anti-terror training, and I sincerely doubt we have an escape plan in place if I look at how lax we handle the LDC maintenance requirements. If we had a security camera facing the parking lot I imagine the brothers handling the audio equipment would probably have an easygoing mentality about it as they do with a lot of responsibilities, sadly.

 

I pray that you are able to develop a less critical attitude toward the brothers that Jehovah has allowed to be responsible for the congregation. Your survival may depend on your quick and unquestioning response to their direction during an emergency.

[ChocoBro]

I pray that you are able to develop a less critical attitude toward the brothers that Jehovah has allowed to be responsible for the congregation. Your survival may depend on your quick and unquestioning response to their direction during an emergency.

Forgive me if I sounded overly critical. I go regularly to the cleaning and maintenance events. I see the overall attitude towards the LDC requirements, you do not.

I'm not saying my congregation is generally careless, they just often have a hard time seeing the necessity of things, especially when changes come around.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

[humble bumble bee]

Not a mass shooting but inspired by it?

 

UK Stanwell stabbing: Terror investigation in Surrey

Counter terror police are investigating a suspected far-right inspired attack in which a 19-year-old man was stabbed.

 

Dutch Shooting: Police are hunting for a gunman in the Dutch city of Utrecht following a shooting on a tram in which three people were killed. Suspected terrorist attack

 

Although I know why it's happening  it's nevertheless unsettling.

 

 

[humble bumble bee]

On 3/15/2019 at 9:16 PM, cricket246 said:

Those who die will have the resurrection hope

 

On 3/15/2019 at 10:41 PM, Tortuga said:

Because there is a difference between our head and our heart. We know in our head that these things will happen but they still shock our heart when they do happen. When Jesus was on earth he knew that people will die but he still cried when he saw death. So we are not shocked that things like this can happen, we are shocked when they do happen.

 

On 3/15/2019 at 10:56 PM, carlos said:

(Jeremiah 29:11) “‘For I well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give you a future and a hope.

All so comforting

[Stormswift]

2 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

Forgive me if I sounded overly critical. I go regularly to the cleaning and maintenance events. I see the overall attitude towards the LDC requirements, you do not.

I'm not saying my congregation is generally careless, they just often have a hard time seeing the necessity of things, especially when changes come around.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk
 

Tort isn't saying that what you said isn't happening.

 

It's the old white paper with a black spot on it type of thing - even if the spot is quite big or very small our eyes focus on that instead of the clean white paper around it - being critical means we focus on the negative - and that doesn't mean the negative is untrue - it's just beneficial to focus on the good they are doing and leave the negative to Jesus who is not only watching but also in control.

[ChocoBro]

55 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Tort isn't saying that what you said isn't happening.

 

It's the old white paper with a black spot on it type of thing - even if the spot is quite big or very small our eyes focus on that instead of the clean white paper around it - being critical means we focus on the negative - and that doesn't mean the negative is untrue - it's just beneficial to focus on the good they are doing and leave the negative to Jesus who is not only watching but also in control.

 

I didn't mean to focus on the negative at all. It's just that since this thing happened on Friday, I believe it is shrewd to expect such things to happen. The FDS urges us to avoid large crowds where possible. Why act as if a terror attack or lone-nut shooter on our KHs are completely out of the question? Especially since Satan has a particular hate for us. I don't worry this will actually happen but as they say, hope for the best but expect the worst. The general attitude in my congregation is that there is a slim chance anything bad will happen in our region as opposed to Mexico for example (this kind of attitude is also the reason hardly anybody has a go-bag). I don't agree with that attitude. I treasure my brothers and sisters and want them to actually be safe.

[Thesauron]

 
I didn't mean to focus on the negative at all. It's just that since this thing happened on Friday, I believe it is shrewd to expect such things to happen. The FDS urges us to avoid large crowds where possible. Why act as if a terror attack or lone-nut shooter on our KHs are completely out of the question? Especially since Satan has a particular hate for us. I don't worry this will actually happen but as they say, hope for the best but expect the worst. The general attitude in my congregation is that there is a slim chance anything bad will happen in our region as opposed to Mexico for example (this kind of attitude is also the reason hardly anybody has a go-bag). I don't agree with that attitude. I treasure my brothers and sisters and want them to actually be safe.

The Governing Body sees things from a perspective you do cannot. We follow the directions from the authorities, and should we happen to be in a very special situation, the Governing Body will make sure to give us the necessary direction. If you feel worried, you should ask your BoE or CO what precautions are in place in case of a terrorist attack directed towards your Kingdom Hall, Assembly Hall, or Convention Site.

[Shawnster]

We can only do so much when faced against an armed individual.  We have no weapons and no body armor or Kevlar vests. We also aren't trained psychologists with hours and years of crisis management hostage negotiation training.  

 

What would you suggest we do?  Do you expect it is practical, logical, reasonable, or even realistic for all attendant brothers to undergo professional training in how to deter an armed assailant? 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Tortuga

[Stormswift]

And even if one is prepared for perceived threats, it is those that blindside you that take you off guard.  

[Stormswift]

Another shooting in Netherlands this time  .. Turkish man - 37 year old, has shot 12 people on a tram, injuring nine and killing three.

Some are suggesting it's another terrorist attack others are suggesting this is revenge for what happened in NZ.

He is on the loose massive manhunt. Happened about 15 hours ago or thereabouts.

Developing story. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47615231

Edited March 19, 2019 by Stormswift

[ChocoBro]

I'm afraid after talking to an elder yesterday, my reason for concern has been more or less confirmed. There is no actual plan or routine, it is all more or less "play it by ear". I hated to say it but I told him in a similar situation to Christchurch, our KH is a deathtrap. There is no secondary escape route if a shooter parks his car in the side-road like he did in Christchurch, the whole thing becomes a turkey-shoot. The only response was why do I "worry" so much about it if the likelihood is so marginal that it will affect us?

 

So I'm dropping the subject, I've voiced my opinion but the response from all sides is I'm too negative, too critical, too paranoid, lack trust in Jehovah or whatever. I didn't build the house without the parapet, but I certainly did point out it's missing. If something should happen, which OBVIOUSLY I don't hope, the blood wouldn't be on my hands.

 

12 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Kingdom Hall, Assembly Hall, or Convention Site.

These things are well thought out at Assembly Halls and Convention Sites. The problem I'm pointing out is relatively typical of my KH and congregation. Sorry, but that's just the way it is 😑 I'm not saying everything is bad. But we have a problem with a laissez-faire attitude in regards to a bunch of things.

 

8 hours ago, Shawnster said:

We can only do so much when faced against an armed individual.  We have no weapons and no body armor or Kevlar vests. We also aren't trained psychologists with hours and years of crisis management hostage negotiation training.  

 

What would you suggest we do?  Do you expect it is practical, logical, reasonable, or even realistic for all attendant brothers to undergo professional training in how to deter an armed assailant?  

 

Actually, you'd be surprised how much beneficial things can be learnt from a 2-4 hour basic training, from verbal de-escalation responses to non-violent threats to group responses to active shooter and stabber scenarios. One of the problems of Christchurch Al Noor mosque was the fact that everybody ran frantically into a corner away from the gunman and a single individual tried to rush the shooter, with little avail. A coordinated, spontaneous group effort would have saved countless lives. Not blaming the victims here, just to make a point that with the right mindset and a little mental preparation as opposed to a laissez-faire attitude, you can make "the best" of such a terrible situation. You don't need armed guards at the door, that's a strawman argument that, as you probably knew, I never aimed to steer the discussion to.

 

Another thing I keep hearing is how our doors are shut after the meeting begins. I really don't understand why that keeps getting floated. In Christchurch, the gunman went into the mosque guns blazing while a group of people stood at the open entrance. Our doors are open until the very last second before the song starts. Again, not planning for anything apart from our own expectations of how we think the situation would play out.

 

But again, as I said, not my responsibility. I guess every congregation does what they thing is the right amount of effort and where they should prove, in fact, to be negligent, I hope Jehovah fills the void.

[Shawnster]

The US branch territory is training everyone who works in the attendant department on how to handle disruptive individuals.  

[hatcheckgirl]

This is taking another turn. It seems Turkish leader Erdogan is holding NZ and Australia responsible for the attack. Even playing the shooter’s video at his election rallies!

 

"They are testing us from 16,500 kilometres away, from New Zealand, with the messages they are giving from there," he said. This isn’t an individual act, this is organised” he said. 

 

Mr Erdogan criticised New Zealand and Australia for sending troops to Turkey in the World War I Gallipoli campaign, claiming their motive was anti-Islam-oriented.

"Your grandparents came here … and they returned in caskets," he said. "Have no doubt we will send you back like your grandfathers."

Hundreds of New Zealanders and Australians travel to Canakkale each year for Anzac Day on April 25, to mark the start of the battle of Gallipoli and to commemorate the dead.”

 

He goes back to WWI. Crazy!

'We know how to make you pay': Turkish president vows revenge on gunman

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-20/erdogan-again-airs-attack-video-at-rally-despite-criticism/10918696

 

[ChocoBro]

1 hour ago, hatcheckgirl said:

This is taking another turn. It seems Turkish leader Erdogan is holding NZ and Australia responsible for the attack. Even playing the shooter’s video at his election rallies!

 

"They are testing us from 16,500 kilometres away, from New Zealand, with the messages they are giving from there," he said. This isn’t an individual act, this is organised” he said.  

 

Mr Erdogan criticised New Zealand and Australia for sending troops to Turkey in the World War I Gallipoli campaign, claiming their motive was anti-Islam-oriented.

"Your grandparents came here … and they returned in caskets," he said. "Have no doubt we will send you back like your grandfathers."

Hundreds of New Zealanders and Australians travel to Canakkale each year for Anzac Day on April 25, to mark the start of the battle of Gallipoli and to commemorate the dead.”

 

He goes back to WWI. Crazy!

'We know how to make you pay': Turkish president vows revenge on gunman

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-20/erdogan-again-airs-attack-video-at-rally-despite-criticism/10918696

 

 

In my humble opinion, he talks a lot to gain public confidence, and his islamic patriotism largely contributes to his political success.

[Meditate!]

On 3/18/2019 at 7:58 AM, ChocoBro said:

 

Security cameras and locked doors can help, but the most important thing is having trained and vigilant personnel handling the equipment and a plan on how to react when an active shooter scenario develops. In our Hall, I really can't imagine the brothers doing the security have any form of de-escalation let alone anti-terror training, and I sincerely doubt we have an escape plan in place if I look at how lax we handle the LDC maintenance requirements. If we had a security camera facing the parking lot I imagine the brothers handling the audio equipment would probably have an easygoing mentality about it as they do with a lot of responsibilities, sadly.

 

with respect you seem to have a low opinion on what Jehovah thinks is necessary  for us to do in the present circumstances. He is not training us all for physical protection methods for the most part. Yes we do have a different level of training for attendants now. (so Jehovah seems to be doing things eh?)

 

The things in the WT and LMM are what we need right now.. why should the public witnessing be any different? The training for that comes from a few principles.. 'As far as it depends upon you be peaceable with all men'. 'Use tact' etc ... other things we leave up to the protection of the Angels. We both have not one clue as to the amount of intervention that goes on our behalf against the Sadistic Demons, day in day out, whilst we casually stroll down the roads in our ministry as if nothing is happening in our world. We do not live in fear because of that

 

In areas where there is anticipated danger we are just advised to go elsewhere and not play in Satan's back yard. Whatever comes upon our brothers is allowed by Jehovah. Look at Russia.. No preparation could be done to stop that which Jehovah allowed. The person on the video equipment was to stop this happening?

 

Those laissez faire, 'let do' elders you are referring to are doing what the master advises. The term you used, is disrespectful of these appointed men. Have you no fear of that?

Don't forget that Jehovah is looking for us to be obedient to those taking the lead.. There is always a blessing for those who show loyalty. 

[New World Explorer]

2 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

This is taking another turn. It seems Turkish leader Erdogan is holding NZ and Australia responsible for the attack. Even playing the shooter’s video at his election rallies!

 

"They are testing us from 16,500 kilometres away, from New Zealand, with the messages they are giving from there," he said. This isn’t an individual act, this is organised” he said. 

 

Mr Erdogan criticised New Zealand and Australia for sending troops to Turkey in the World War I Gallipoli campaign, claiming their motive was anti-Islam-oriented.

"Your grandparents came here … and they returned in caskets," he said. "Have no doubt we will send you back like your grandfathers."

Hundreds of New Zealanders and Australians travel to Canakkale each year for Anzac Day on April 25, to mark the start of the battle of Gallipoli and to commemorate the dead.”

 

He goes back to WWI. Crazy!

'We know how to make you pay': Turkish president vows revenge on gunman

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-20/erdogan-again-airs-attack-video-at-rally-despite-criticism/10918696

 

Wow, he chose to make a very provocative statements

Good time to remind ourselves to be a neutral among this wicked generation. (As we are) 

[Stormswift]

Yes. Initially New Zealand and NZ's Prime Minister was getting very high praise from all over the world, both from secular governments and the muslim communities around the world. It would be very easy for us Jehovah's Witnesses in New Zealand to have some kind of inward pride for being part of a mostly peaceful country. 

 

BIG TRAP.

 

It can, and may be, turning.

 

This month's broadcasting is very timely. We must ALL remain neutral even in our hearts.

[Meditate!]

4 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Yes. Initially New Zealand and NZ's Prime Minister was getting very high praise from all over the world, both from secular governments and the muslim communities around the world. It would be very easy for us Jehovah's Witnesses in New Zealand to have some kind of inward pride for being part of a mostly peaceful country. 

had not considered that!

4 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

 

BIG TRAP.

 

It can, and may be, turning.

 

This month's broadcasting is very timely. We must ALL remain neutral even in our hearts.

 

[ChocoBro]

On 3/19/2019 at 8:31 PM, hatcheckgirl said:

This is taking another turn. It seems Turkish leader Erdogan is holding NZ and Australia responsible for the attack. Even playing the shooter’s video at his election rallies!

 

Here's something interesting in this regard from the murderer's manifesto

 

Quote

Why did you carry out the attack?
[...]
To drive a wedge between the nations of NATO that are European and the Turks that also make a part of the NATO forces, thereby turning NATO once more into a united European army and pushing the Turkey once more back to the true position of a foreign, enemy force

 

 

[ChocoBro]

What's very interesting is that this individual terror attack is developing into a catalyst for a lot of destabilization and hate.

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2019/03/chelsea-clinton-blamed-by-student-for-christchurch-attack.html

 

Quote

A student at a vigil for the Christchurch terror attack has accused Chelsea Clinton, daughter of former US President Bill Clinton, of encouraging hate crime.
[...]

In February, Omar faced criticism for tweets insinuating that the pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee was effectively buying off US politicians.

To this, Clinton said: "Co-signed as an American. We should expect all elected officials, regardless of party, and all public figures to not traffic in anti-Semitism."

However many criticised Clinton for writing "as an American" in her Tweet, accusing her of implying that Omar herself is not a real American or not as American as Clinton.

The student at the vigil told Clinton her comment had contributed to the hate that fueled the Christchurch terror attack.

There's a lot of gunpowder in this story. A Muslim Somali-American Congresswoman complains about Israel's influence on American politics, which can easily and quickly construed as anti-semitism by some. The other side quickly interprets that as blatant islamophobia, even blaming such opinions for the massacre.

 

This is a great example of how quick a political statement can explode and how important our neutrality is.

EDIT: Also, expect the unexpected. The room is filled with hydrogen gas. All it needs now is a spark, or actually maybe, that's precisely what just happened, who knows.

Edited March 21, 2019 by ChocoBro

[Thike Salvmu]

2 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

Also, expect the unexpected. 

Highly illogical.  

[trottigy]

Several of my workmates were extremely upset over their passing strict gun laws. They are just sure that this will happen in the USA.

 

They said, "they take away your guns first - so, you can't defend yourself. Then they come into your home and arrest you later." The "they" is the government.

 

People have a very cynical view of government here. Here you have to be ready to defend yourself from the governement with LETHAL force. I am so glad we don't feel that way about our government. We love our King Jesus and have no concern about him having ill-will towards His citizens. 

 

 

[ChocoBro]

14 hours ago, trottigy said:

We love our King Jesus and have no concern about him having ill-will towards His citizens. 

 

 

 

If they are professing Christians and love the Bible, you might show them this verse:

 

Quote

If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones. ^{11  [,..] 15}  And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.
Revelation 13

 

A lot of believers in Bible prophecy expect the "Beast system" to soon arise and boy are they right, even if Jared Kushner is not the Anti-Christ 🤣

The Bible makes it clear what will happen to those in the Great Tribulation who think they need to fight against the Wild Beast. We need to be prepared for persecution, imprisonment, even torture and death. Jehovah and Jesus will reward us for our endurance and faith.