On the Perception of Race

[Luezette]

There's a sister in my congregation, she's African American. 

One day we were talking about this very same subject, and she told me about a brother who he and she were very close. 

Long story short he got sick and died. 

About two weeks ago one Sunday we're in service again, and she bought him up again. But this time just a bit more there was such a whimsical sound in her voice that I said to her "girl, you're in love." She just smiled. She expressed hope though, that the resurrected ones do marry after all (the slave said "we'll have to wait and see."). So I get the impression that she's willing to wait and see.

But what has this to do with the topic of this thread? This: the object of her love is Asian. 

Love, true love, has no racial boundaries, at least shouldn't. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Luezette

[JennyM]

14 minutes ago, Luezette said:

There's a sister in my congregation, she's African American. 

One day we were talking about this very same subject, and she told me about a brother who he and she were very close. 

Long story short he got sick and died. 

About two weeks ago one Sunday we're in service again, and she bought him up again. But this time just a bit more there was such a whimsical sound in her voice that I said to her "girl, you're in love." She just smiled. She expressed hope though, that the resurrected ones do marry after all (the slave said "we'll have to wait and see."). So I get the impression that she's willing to wait and see.

But what has this to do with the topic of this thread? This: the object of her love is Asian. 

Love, true love, has no racial boundaries, at least shouldn't. 

I just spoke to a Black british sister near my congregation..  She married a japanese brother. Knowing that japanese is a monogamous society and black is  strongly discriminated in Japan. 

They met as need greater in a banned country. We had a lengthy discussion about her experience of service in Hongkong then in the land of KOTN. 

Shes not even beautiful in human standard. What I see is true love.  

[Rose94]

5 minutes ago, JennyM said:

Shes not even beautiful in human standard

I'm sure she's beautiful to her husband, that's all that matters.

[JennyM]

2 minutes ago, Rose94 said:

I'm sure she's beautiful to her husband, that's all that matters.

I don't mean negative here.. She's a witty sister and spiritual..I would rather be with someone who is average looking than with someone who is full of themselves.  Japanese men are picky sometimes.  Again, what I see is true love. 

[JennyM]

2 hours ago, EccentricM said:

@JennyM

 

I suppose it's possible to be spiritually mature in "one area" and then unspiritual in another. Since what one person would never do what another person does, but then goes and does something that the other person would not.

 

But for these scenarios, are any others in the congregation aware of it? Other Elders? Perhaps it's something that needs attention bringing to. If someone is literally saying "I love you" and buying presents to multiple women, that is not acceptable behaviour, even people in the world would agree to that.

The first one got away with it because the 2 of us never complained to his congregation. i heard that  some brothers lost their privileges  because of this. 

 I planned to talk to the elder for the 2nd one because he even deliberately did flirting to a newly baptized sister even though I warned him. I told him, shes not yet strong to experience what I had experience on you. But I felt attached to him and would feel bad if I do that.  We discussed the watchtower together, prayed together because he invited me to do so.. and my feelings had deepened  because of that. He told me I will marry you , ill buy you a ring.. then all of a sudden he said: "I think its better if we get married in paradise instead." You know, I thought I found mr right but it burst like a bubble.... lol!

 

On the other hand, I dont want other sisters to undergo what I had to. 

 

 

 

[Luezette]

1 hour ago, JennyM said:

Shes not even beautiful in human standard. W

Obviously her brother love saw true beauty, that goes beneath and beyond human standards. Good for him! He view things as Jehovah, which is the earmark of a real spiritual person.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Luezette

[thegreenjudy]

I don't even agree with the whole physical preference argument. In my life I had a crush on many brothers (before I got married..lol) and the only thing they had in common was the truth.

 

They were all different in height, hair colour, facial features, figure, job, income etc.

 

When you have an open mind you actually pay attention to people's personality and spirituality before you write them off because they have the wrong hair colour or height. In my mind that's very shallow thinking. I always felt the attraction to the person grew the more I got to know them. Attractions shouldn't just come from physical appearance. I often find that many who lament their singleness have very high expectations when it comes to physical appearance. And often they end up hard broken when their picture perfect crush doesn't seem all they've cracked up to be.

 

The man I married is first and foremost kind to me and others as well as spiritual. When I first met him I didn't think much of the way he looked. But what really stood out (after I bothered to have a proper conversation with him) was his personality. The more I got to know him the more he became physically attractive to me.

Many don't even bother having a deep conversation with someone of the opposite sex if the face doesn't fit in the first place. Really winds me up😂

 

[Newtonian]

On 10/2/2019 at 7:18 PM, JennyM said:

Ok.. Attraction needed a thorough scientific study then. 

 

About being monogamous, the bird species like the eagles and penguins  are. I don't understand why humans especially men aren't. I haven't been married to a jw so I don't what it feels like to be married with a christian.  But there are brothers even Ministerial and elders who are single and dating more than 1 sister or some brothers date  and kiss but never marry in this system.  So Im kinda lost trust in dating and in marriage even in the Christian congregation. 

 

 

Dating is only proper when both parties are looking to marry and will consider the person they date.   That is in our literature somewhere.

 

Of course, recreational dating is not a disfellowshipping offense - it is simply wrong and can be quite hurtful.

 

However, with me and my wife-to-be - the only dates we had were working in the ministry together - one exception: we went apple picking together with our congregation.

 

Obviously it is not wrong to work in the ministry with someone you are not considering marrying.  Or even with someone who is already married.

 

Of course, due caution in the latter case.

 

 Bottom line - what definition of dating are you referring to?

[Newtonian]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:17 PM, Katty said:

I don't think, assuming that Noah's sons had different skin tones, it would have been something people noticed much. People, that early in human history, likely would not have had a concept of race. Again, this is assuming they even had different skins tones, an idea for which the Bible doesn't state. It seems more likely that it's their descendants that developed different traits as a result of inhabiting different continents for generations.
As someone biracial, and having had friends who are biracial, I do think that many people who are more than one race do seem to identify with one race more than others. I'm part Native American, Hispanic/Latin American and white. I identify more with the Hispanic and white part of my heritage more than the Native American side. I've known people who are part Native American and white who identify more with the Native American side. Maybe upbringing has an influence on it. I've never been a part of any communities associated with the Native American tribe in my region, while others have. 
I know a lot of people might disagree with this, but I don't think having racial preferences when it comes to dating is necessarily racist. People generally have specific standards in what they find attractive that takes into account a number of physical characteristics. I find that people instinctively seek partners that look similar to themselves or to relatives to prevent outbreeding, or two people who have genetic background that can be too dissimilar from reproducing. Of course, people often end up dating people that don't fit their profile in what they normally attractive because they have good chemistry. I think what's racist is when you think of particular races as being disgusting or repulsive due to their race. Before I met my love, I would have been open to dating someone of any race, despite finding the characteristics of some being more attractive than others. In the end, it is what's in the heart that counts, after all.
 

I agree that preferring a certain appearance is not necessarily racist since clearly it is not just skin color that is involved.

 

To illustrate - If you are attracted to a yellow rose more than a red rose - is that racist???

 

Or, in the case of wildflowers - what if you are attracted more to yellow goldenrod than purple wild asters?  (they are both in bloom now here in SE Louisiana)

 

For me, the most important thing that attracted me to my wife to be was her growing love for Jehovah, for my mom and for me.

 

But more uniquely - her kindness.

 

And her love for animals.

 

Skin color was a minor factor - so was hair color.

 

The most important race we have in common is the race for life!

[Newtonian]

To add a little humor:'

'

One sister I was in love with and wanted to marry though she wanted to just be friends -

 

One day in the car as we (just the two of us) were in the ministry together - I asked her if she would have a date with me.

 

She looked at me puzzled since we had an understanding (she knew I wanted to marry - and she did like me).

 

Then I took out my bag of dates and offered her one.

 

Ummm!   She had never had a date before!

 

Personally, I like store-bought dates more than figs.

 

[but I love tree ripened figs]

 

On a scientific note:

 

I do not think dating in science is proper.

 

Bottom line: Dating involves fig - ures.

[JennyM]

46 minutes ago, Newtonian said:

Dating is only proper when both parties are looking to marry and will consider the person they date.   That is in our literature somewhere.

 

Of course, recreational dating is not a disfellowshipping offense - it is simply wrong and can be quite hurtful.

 

However, with me and my wife-to-be - the only dates we had were working in the ministry together - one exception: we went apple picking together with our congregation.

 

Obviously it is not wrong to work in the ministry with someone you are not considering marrying.  Or even with someone who is already married.

 

Of course, due caution in the latter case.

 

 Bottom line - what definition of dating are you referring to?

Thats what I understand about dating.. Both are looking for marriage. 

But some are doing recreational dating.. Just dating not ready to marry. 

 

 

[Old]

When it comes to this topic, are dating and courtship synonymous? If they are then let's stick to courship, if not then then we are discussing dating which sounds to me like a recreation and where does that fit in for Christians?

[EccentricM]

11 minutes ago, Old said:

dating and courtship synonymous?

Depends on who you ask. And whether it would be Christian or not I'd say depends on context. Some forms of worldly dating is just seeing the opposite sex in the form of early stages of a relationship to get to know each other, but this may also be done just for "fun" to "try out" different people for the sake of it, and may or may not include sexual activity as time goes on until they either continue to something "deeper" emotionally wise, or just drop each other when they get bored.

 

From what I understand, at least in the context I was was raised on, dating I'd say in the Christian way, is getting to know the opposite sex formally who you have an "interest in" to see if you are compatible. It may include meals, outtings, etc just to become familiar with one another and getting to know one another just as individuals, but with the added possiblity that things "may" go further, from there they may then delve into "courting" which is where the two people are offically an unmarried "couple" as it were, where they essentially are doing the same thing as dating but are now more intimate with each other, emotionally, physically (minus fornication) etc and offically have declared their love for each other. From where if it continues and they gather they'd like to spend eternity like that with one another, they get engaged to be married.

Edited October 16, 2019 by EccentricM

[JennyM]

In our country, spiritual brothers often observe a sister from a distance.. When they think that they are ready to marry, they date a sister. Dating then often leads to marriage. 

I saw some European brothers who visited here. Its easy for them to ask someone for a date. then drop her and go to the other. 

 

But due to imperfection, some locals show romantic interest to gauge their importance or attractiveness. (immaturity) 

I think no mature Christians would ever do that. 

 

Jesus has female friends, Martha and Mary .. He was loved by many women.. For sure, he did not send romantic signals to these women.  

 

Likewise, we don't want to send mix signals as if we are interested to have romantic feelings to a bro or a sis if we are not ready to marry.. Or if we think we can't live with this person in marriage.   

 

Treat the opposite gender as a mother, a sister or a father  and a brother. (Book of Timothy) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EccentricM]

33 minutes ago, JennyM said:

saw some European brothers who visited here. Its easy for them to ask someone for a date. then drop her and go to the other. 

Most likely influence of the worldly culture that is around them. It's a very typical thing. It's why we've had articles and books in the past on the topic of flirting and the harm in showing romantic interest to someone you're not serious about.

[Thesauron]

In our country, spiritual brothers often observe a sister from a distance.. When they think that they are ready to marry, they date a sister. Dating then often leads to marriage. 
I saw some European brothers who visited here. Its easy for them to ask someone for a date. then drop her and go to the other. 
 
But due to imperfection, some locals show romantic interest to gauge their importance or attractiveness. (immaturity) 
I think no mature Christians would ever do that. 
 
Jesus has female friends, Martha and Mary .. He was loved by many women.. For sure, he did not send romantic signals to these women.  
 
Likewise, we don't want to send mix signals as if we are interested to have romantic feelings to a bro or a sis if we are not ready to marry.. Or if we think we can't live with this person in marriage.   
 
Treat the opposite gender as a mother, a sister or a father  and a brother. (Book of Timothy) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I’m in Europe. Here, where I live, it is unacceptable for anyone to date (engage in courtship with) anyone, unless the goal is to get married. It isn’t kind to your partner to treat them otherwise. Both are free to quit dating for whatever reason, but if they enter into courtship without the goal to marry the person, you are dishonest and unkind.

[Newtonian]

4 hours ago, Old said:

When it comes to this topic, are dating and courtship synonymous? If they are then let's stick to courship, if not then then we are discussing dating which sounds to me like a recreation and where does that fit in for Christians?

Courtship often involves dating (not in the case of me and my wife).   Dating precedes courtship in that one is trying to get to know the other person before deciding to be engaged to marry.

 

My wife and I did this while in the ministry together.

[Newtonian]

4 hours ago, JennyM said:

In our country, spiritual brothers often observe a sister from a distance.. When they think that they are ready to marry, they date a sister. Dating then often leads to marriage. 

I saw some European brothers who visited here. Its easy for them to ask someone for a date. then drop her and go to the other. 

 

But due to imperfection, some locals show romantic interest to gauge their importance or attractiveness. (immaturity) 

I think no mature Christians would ever do that. 

 

Jesus has female friends, Martha and Mary .. He was loved by many women.. For sure, he did not send romantic signals to these women.  

 

Likewise, we don't want to send mix signals as if we are interested to have romantic feelings to a bro or a sis if we are not ready to marry.. Or if we think we can't live with this person in marriage.   

 

Treat the opposite gender as a mother, a sister or a father  and a brother. (Book of Timothy) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion "dropping someone" is not only unkind but also unchristian.   Stopping dating someone (before being engaged) does not have to be cruel and/or hurtful since we are all supposed to love one another.

 

And seeing someone does not have to involve romantic conduct or romantic feelings.   However, one must be careful about leading someone on (a local phrase meaning leaving the wrong impression one is interested in marrying the other).

 

Communication solves this and can silence improper gossip as well.   And leaving the wrong impression can be totally innocent - as was the case with Jesus' disciples observing him with the Samaritan woman:

 

John 4:27

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

27 Just then his disciples arrived, and they were surprised because he was speaking with a woman. Of course, no one said: “What are you looking for?” or “Why are you talking to her?”

 

And, yes, Jesus loved Mary and Martha - it was upon seeing them weeping that moved Jesus to tears and to groaning within himself:

 

John 11:5

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazʹa·rus.

 

John 11:32-35

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

32 When Mary arrived where Jesus was and caught sight of him, she fell at his feet and said to him: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her weeping, he groaned within himself and became troubled. 34 He said: “Where have you laid him?” They said to him: “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus gave way to tears.+

[Meditate!]

1 hour ago, Newtonian said:

Courtship often involves dating (not in the case of me and my wife).   Dating precedes courtship in that one is trying to get to know the other person before deciding to be engaged to marry.

I think I know what you are saying but courtship and dating is synonymous in our literature. That's why dating as considered in the world is frowned upon. There is no problem as you mention; getting to know someone in a group with no focus that the other person is necessarily aware of; Viewing 'from a distance. on the other hand courtship/dating is with marriage in mind and the parties should be in a position to get married. Sometimes it doesn't work out and people get hurt. That's why it is a serious matter rather than a social thing as it is in the world. That is why it is best to do your 'research' (for want of a better word) well in advance.. observe well and ask unbiased ones what they really think of the other party. They other party should be doing the same. 

 

 

*** yp2 chap. 1 p. 15 Am I Ready to Date? ***
What Is “Dating”?
Mark your response to the following questions:
You regularly go out with a certain member of the opposite sex. Are you dating?
□ Yes
□ No
You and a member of the opposite sex are attracted to each other. Several times a day, you text-message or talk to this person on the phone. Are you dating?
□ Yes
□ No
Every time you get together with your friends, you pair off with the same person of the opposite sex. Are you dating?
□ Yes
□ No
You most likely had no problem answering the first question. But you may have paused before responding to the second and the third. What exactly is dating? Really, dating is any social activity in which your romantic interest is focused on one particular person and that person’s interest is focused on you. So the answer to all three questions listed above is yes. Whether on the phone or face-to-face, in the open or in secret, if you and a friend of the opposite sex have a special romantic understanding and communicate regularly, it’s dating. Are you ready to go down that road? 
 

Quote

 

My wife and I did this while in the ministry together.

I met my wife through pioneering.. we had no other thing in mind.. till later

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Alan
forgot something

[Newtonian]

Back to topic - Ruth and Orpah married those of another race.   In view of their loyal love for Naomi, also of a different race, they were likely good wives.

 

Of course, it depends on one's definition of race - to me Moabites and Jews were of different races.   In Scripture, it was not race but rather religion (way of worship) which was important.

 

Orpah went back to those of the Moabite religion (though she was willing to stay with Naomi) - Ruth became a worshiper of Jehovah.

 

In fact, Ruth was privileged to be an ancestress of the Messiah/Christ/Jesus.

 

No doubt this was in part due to her sticking with this heartfelt expression of loyal love (not involving dating,, btw):

 

Ruth 1:8-10

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

8 Na·oʹmi said to both of her daughters-in-law: “Go, return, each of you to your mother’s home. May Jehovah show loyal love to you,+ just as you have shown it to the men who have died and to me. 9 May Jehovah grant* that each of you finds security* in the home of your husband.”+ Then she kissed them, and they wept loudly. 10 They kept saying to her: “No, but we will go with you to your people.”

 

Ruth 1:16, 17

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

16 But Ruth said: “Do not plead with me to abandon you, to turn back from accompanying you; for where you go I will go, and where you spend the night, I will spend the night. Your people will be my people, and your God my God.+17 Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May Jehovah do so to me and add to it if anything but death should separate me from you.”

[Newtonian]

2 minutes ago, Alan said:

I think I know what you are saying but courtship and dating is synonymous in our literature. That's why dating as considered in the world is frowned upon. There is no problem as you mention; getting to know someone in a group with no focus that the other person is necessarily aware of; Viewing 'from a distance. on the other hand courtship/dating is with marriage in mind and the parties should be in a position to get married.

 

 

*** yp2 chap. 1 p. 15 Am I Ready to Date? ***
What Is “Dating”?
Mark your response to the following questions:
You regularly go out with a certain member of the opposite sex. Are you dating?
□ Yes
□ No
You and a member of the opposite sex are attracted to each other. Several times a day, you text-message or talk to this person on the phone. Are you dating?
□ Yes
□ No
Every time you get together with your friends, you pair off with the same person of the opposite sex. Are you dating?
□ Yes
□ No
You most likely had no problem answering the first question. But you may have paused before responding to the second and the third. What exactly is dating? Really, dating is any social activity in which your romantic interest is focused on one particular person and that person’s interest is focused on you. So the answer to all three questions listed above is yes. Whether on the phone or face-to-face, in the open or in secret, if you and a friend of the opposite sex have a special romantic understanding and communicate regularly, it’s dating. Are you ready to go down that road? 
 

I met my wife through pioneering.. we had no other thing in mind.. till later

 

Excellent points.  And I see you had a similar experience preceding marriage.

 

However, my wife, though dedicated, could not pioneer at first because she was not baptized - there were many months between when she was dedicated (in private prayer) in late October [we were confidential friends] and when she was baptized at a circuit assembly in another district on 5/1/82.   We  were married 7/3/82.

 

I proposed to her the evening of the day she was baptized.

[JennyM]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

I think I know what you are saying but courtship and dating is synonymous in our literature. That's why dating as considered in the world is frowned upon. There is no problem as you mention; getting to know someone in a group with no focus that the other person is necessarily aware of; Viewing 'from a distance. on the other hand courtship/dating is with marriage in mind and the parties should be in a position to get married. Sometimes it doesn't work out and people get hurt. That's why it is a serious matter rather than a social thing as it is in the world.

This is what mature Asian bros do.. They observe sisters from a distance.. The sister doesn't know.. Then the dating process is so short  that proceeds to engagement right away. 

But I notice that most Europeans enjoy too much dating.... Like bees to different flowers...  They  reason out.  "I have to get to know the person well." Then, if they don't like something, then it stopped.. Most likely it hurts to Asian culture..   So , its important to set expectation at first when it comes to cultural differences...... But anyway, what I like about most of European, American are being friendly.. Asian culture is restrictive......  Its common sense that we should not talk to the husband if its not so important such as theocratic arrangement etc. 

[Bek]

8 hours ago, Old said:

When it comes to this topic, are dating and courtship synonymous? If they are then let's stick to courship, if not then then we are discussing dating which sounds to me like a recreation and where does that fit in for Christians?

In Russian and some other languages in my region, dating and courtship are expressed with one word. So there is no confusion like in English. 

 

As for perception of race, I think I understand when someone says he likes women of only certain race or ethnic group. I guess it could be interpreted as racist by some, but as long as we have no racial biases, it is Ok to be like that only once, i.e. when choosing your spouse.   

 

Personally it does not matter to me what race a woman is as long as I like her physical looks and personality. I know that all races have wide variations in physical features. If you take Asians for example, you can have many different skin tones, facial features, figures, size and so on. 

 

 

On 10/13/2019 at 3:40 PM, thegreenjudy said:

When you have an open mind you actually pay attention to people's personality and spirituality before you write them off because they have the wrong hair colour or height. In my mind that's very shallow thinking. I always felt the attraction to the person grew the more I got to know them. Attractions shouldn't just come from physical appearance. I often find that many who lament their singleness have very high expectations when it comes to physical appearance. And often they end up hard broken when their picture perfect crush doesn't seem all they've cracked up to be

I think women in general pay less attention to physical appearance than men. That is because women do not need a very good-looking guy, especially for sexual reasons. No wonder there is a popular saying "women love with ears while men love with eyes".

 

However, sometimes it goes to the extreme and some brothers set way too high expectations of physical looks. I know one brother who is a great guy in his late 30s. He is looking for a wife at the moment. He has told me what kind of woman he wants, and shown me some pictures. I was blown away by what I saw. He wants super models with stunning looks. I personally think he is being unrealistic and putting too much emphasis on looks. I feel he may not be able to find the right one soon. 

 

 

[carlos]

2 hours ago, JennyM said:

But I notice that most Europeans enjoy too much dating.... Like bees to different flowers...  They  reason out.  "I have to get to know the person well." Then, if they don't like something, then it stopped.. Most likely it hurts to Asian culture..   So , its important to set expectation at first when it comes to cultural differences......

Jenny, I'm sure that there are some brothers who take dating and courtship lightly and I agree that's unchristian.

 

Yet when you say that it's specifically Europeans that do that, I think it may be just a cultural difference. Maybe sisters in your area take any act of kindness by a brother as romantic interest, while from the viewpoint of the foreign brother, who is not aware of the Filipino culture, he's just being kind.

 

Where I live it's perfectly common for a brother (married or single) to go out in service with any sister (married or single). If it's a hot day, he will probably invite her to enter a cafe and have a soft drink or an ice cream. Or if it's a cold day he will invite her to a coffee. According to some friends here, if you do that in certain areas in the US, for example, you better ask for that sister's hand on the spot or you will be receiving some serious advice. But here it's just common courtesy. So if I travelled to your area, went out in service with you and offered you to have a soda together, and the next week I do the same with another sister, you would think I am playing with the sisters' feelings while I am just trying to be kind.

 

Personally I think it's very sad when a brother cannot show some kindness to a sister (or the other way around) without being interpreted as romantic interest. But of course my view is modeled and filtered by my culture.

 

 

[JennyM]

1 hour ago, Bek said:

However, sometimes it goes to the extreme and some brothers set way too high expectations of physical looks. I know one brother who is a great guy in his late 30s. He is looking for a wife at the moment. He has told me what kind of woman he wants, and shown me some pictures. I was blown away by what I saw. He wants super models with stunning looks. I personally think he is being unrealistic and putting too much emphasis on looks. I feel he may not be able to find the right one soon. 

thats what  I don't understand about men.  There's a Filipino here who I think is attractive because he's a good reader and he has the potential to be a good speaker  plus he can provide for a wife.. He's not that physically attractive... no way... but I saw his personality as attractive and he created an isolated facebook that his only friends are women, worldly women.  In our eyes, those women look like contestants for beauty pageant. (The setting was not set into private.) Well, its a turn off.. A sister and a friend doesn't want to chat with him anymore.. So it means that no sister will ever be pretty for him at the moment.. or he needs to scale all congregations to find stunning looking sister.