2021 Governing Body Update #6

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, jwhess said:

Tom are we still talking about countries that have laws or mandate s requiring vaccinations?

Yes. I was genuinely curious. I think (but am not sure) that there are such countries, and in such countries does the Branch rebuke any brother or sister who still chooses not to accept the vaccine? If they do, then I am wrong. Does anyone here live in such a country? Hearing from that person would be a good way to make our here discussion more than a hypothetical

 

I am not adamantly against vaccination as it might appear. Like the organization, I also am “not opposed” to them. I’m on no mission to talk people out of them. In the event of a mandate, I might well get one. I might anyway. I just don’t want to run roughshod over any who are opposed to them or make them feel as though rebellious. 

10 hours ago, jwhess said:

Br. Tom, your opening sentence to the 3rd paragraph says it all. "To get really crazy, suppose..."

No, I don’t think it does say it all. What would be crazy is if the government did mandate taking arsenic. The prior examples I gave, before the ‘crazy’ line, were Vioxx and thalmidimide—neither of which the GB was opposed to and neither of which they warned against, for that is not their area of specialty. With vaccines, there are a minority of the friends who consider them, due to what they have researched,  as dangerous as those two drugs. Jehovah’s organization these days emphasize that they do not wish to be masters over another’s faith (2 Cor 1:24) and I really wonder what they do in countries where there is a mandate. If someone knows what they actually do, please let me know.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by TrueTomHarley

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, jwhess said:

In countries where we were ordered to show up at voting booths, we went (didn't cast a usable ballot).

We didn’t actually comply with the intent of the law then, did we? I am sure if people could show up at the vaccination site and then simply pretend to take the shot, nobody would have any objection to that. Same with the other examples you mentioned. In every case, we found a way to “get around” them. There is no such way when it comes to getting the shot or not.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by TrueTomHarley

[Doug]

On 7/17/2021 at 9:31 PM, Tortuga said:

Here is an interesting statistic.

 

Getting baptized is a personal choice, however 100% of Jehovah's Witnesses are baptized!

So, then, getting vaccinated is more akin to getting married,

 

 NOT 100% of JW's will do it , and hesitancy is linked to side effects.    

[Tbs77]

I liked that, too... although I didn't realize that was a thing. I wonder if it's left to the individuals to request a shepherding call?  I haven't received one in nearly three years..  

Cray🥲
Will pray you get one during this pandemic!
.

[jwhess]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We didn’t actually comply with the intent of the law then, did we? I am sure if people could show up at the vaccination site and then simply pretend to take the shot, nobody would have any objection to that. Same with the other examples you mentioned. In every case, we found a way to “get around” them. There is no such way when it comes to getting the shot or not.

 

In this case, there were some who had requirements to actually fill out a ballot and vote.  Most Witnesses used the "write in" feature and voted for Jesus or Jehovah.  Some simply made unclear marks and voided the ballot.  We are obedient to the government because Jehovah told the apostle to write it down.  Not is some vague or ambiguous way but directly in scripture.

 

Romans 13:1-4..."Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. ...for it is God’s minister to you for your good. ...It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

 

We live in an era of everyone wanting to express his or her "rights" including views that "I don't have to do what I don't want to do."  That is not an option for a faithful servant of God.  We HAVE to do what he asks of us.  There is NO DOUBT what this scripture says.  Obey the legitimate government (whether you like it or not) UNLESS you find a rule, law or request specifically violates a statement, value, rule or commandment of Jehovah as written down in the Bible.  That is why the current instructions in the OD book say to obey the government "...in everything that is not in conflict with Jehovah’s righteous law..." (OD page 161).

 

Your comments as to whether you will be punished, chastised, reprimanded or in some way held accountable by the branch is not the point.  The scripture asks ...Are you being held accountable by God, He is the avenger against disobedience.  If the local brothers know you have disobeyed a published law or regulation, depending on the number of times you do it, how sorry you are that you did it and whether you intend to keep on disobeying. that will determine whether they take decisive action.  

 

If you fail to repay a bank loan or pay taxes one year and it is known, you will get counsel.  If you fail to make to make restitution and repeat the same conduct the next year, it may require an investigation.  If you laugh it off as something "everybody" does, well, that could lead to more serious outcomes.  Will the Branch intervene?  Not likely (unless you become the national spokesman on TV for refusal to obey the laws).

 

But Jehovah our sovereign and Jesus our king and judge know your conduct and your reasons.  You really need to explain it to them.  In the long run, that becomes a "life-or-death" conversation.

 

If you are into some kind of "rights" push here that OK with me.  No one appointed me your conscience.  But I think I have gone round this barn enough times and I don't think I can add anything beyond the OD book and God's own words.  So we should pray to be in harmony with Jehovah's will in the matter of obedience...💗

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by jwhess

[Joey]

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

To get really crazy, suppose they required all citizens to take arsenic. Would we be expected to say that since the superior government authorities mandated it, we have no choice but to submit? Of course not.

In Bible times they ordered the midwives to kill the babies. (Some disobeyed the government and hid them.) I think Jehovah was okay with that. 

 

[Mike]

In Bible times they ordered the midwives to kill the babies. (Some disobeyed the government and hid them.) I think Jehovah was okay with that. 
 

Murder, of course, would be a violation of Jehovahs law and the vaccinate is not murder. In fact, one might argue it’s more an opposite of murder.


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[Joey]

Just now, Mike said:

Murder, of course, would be a violation of Jehovahs law and the vaccinate is not murder. In fact, one might argue it’s more an opposite of murder.


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I was referring to the arsenic example he gave. 

[Mike]

I was referring to the arsenic example he gave. 

oh .. ok. I noticed we were going off track … I probably shouldn’t have jumped the train!


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[Amygdala]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There is no such way when it comes to getting the shot or not.

Moving countries?

[carlos]

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I really wonder what they do in countries where there is a mandate. If someone knows what they actually do, please let me know.

I don't know of any countries where the vaccine is compulsory. But I thought of a similar situation, not sure it helps. Some missionaries and overseers are sent to countries where a vaccine is compulsory. Or sometimes GB members or other representatives visit those countries.

 

Now imagine a missionary who is sent to Congo, where a malaria vaccine certificate is required to enter the country. The missionary is free to reject the malaria vaccine but then he will have to go home. The organization will not give him a different assignment because he doesn't want to take a vaccine.

[Sofia]

56 minutes ago, carlos said:

I don't know of any countries where the vaccine is compulsory

De nada 😉

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

Now imagine a missionary who is sent to Congo, where a malaria vaccine certificate is required to enter the country. The missionary is free to reject the malaria vaccine but then he will have to go home. The organization will not give him a different assignment because he doesn't want to take a vaccine.

Thereafter, would they rebuke him, is my question, or advise the local elders to give him stern counsel?

 

My guess is they would not. They might even think it an application of the ‘counting the costs’ passage. The missionary counted the costs, decided he/she was unable/unwilling to pay them, and modestly withdrew from that assignment.

 

That may be why the 98% figure is what it is—much higher than I would have imagined from the “some Bethelites have accepted the vaccine” announcement. 98% is “virtually all Bethelites have accepted the vaccine.”

 

They are on a special assignment at US Bethel. In New York, where they are located, the governor has said life can resume pretty much as normal for those vaccinated [this may very soon change with the sudden onslaught of the delta variety], whereas those unvaccinated ought still very very cautious. The Bethel brothers cherish their special assignment and do not want to jeopardize it by going unvaccinated. They don’t want to risk being sent home where they could hunker into Zoom, phone calls, and letters for however long they wished.

Edited July 20, 2021 by TrueTomHarley

[James the Less]

52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The Bethel brothers cherish their special assignment and do not want to jeopardize it by going unvaccinated.

The Governing Body have made very clear to the Bethel family worldwide that vaccination is a personal decision and will not determine whether one stays in this form of special full-time service or not. They have plainly stated it is not mandatory to receive the vaccine if you are in Bethel service. They have, however, stated that those who choose not to be vaccinated must accept that they will not be able to enjoy the same freedoms that those who are vaccinated can, at least initially. 

[Lee49]

54 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They don’t want to risk being sent home where they could hunker into Zoom, phone calls, and letters for however long they wished.

Why would they, unless they hated doing what they went there to do, that is serving in what ever capacity they are assigned. Being sent home would mean loosing all of the benefits at being at Bethel including rooming, food, medical, not to mention the spiritual aspect of being surrounded by a spiritual family. Could you just imagine telling the brothers back home why you left such a privilege of an assignment, " I didn't want to get the jab "? So then having  to stay at home on zoom and being extra careful of not contracting the virus and now having to find a job to care for all of their needs.

[Ms. Piffle]

I wonder how the 98% vaccinated including the gov body are treating the 2% unvaccinated🤔 Do they make them feel like they are not as spiritual?  That they are not being obedient to Jehovah?  Hasn't the gov body stated several times that it is a personal choice?   I do not understand why some are having such a hard time respecting that some brothers and sisters have chosen to not get vaccinated at this time.     

 

Why do the majority so often view the minority in a negative light?   Shouldn't we be more concerned about how we are treating our brothers than if their personal choice was the same as ours?  

 

I ask these things in love brothers. 🤗

 

[AH173]

2 minutes ago, Polka Dot said:

I wonder how the 98% vaccinated including the gov body are treating the 2% unvaccinated🤔 

They have achieved beyond the proverbial 'herd immunity' number. I don't think it matters at that level or rate of vaccinated. 

[Ms. Piffle]

Just now, AH173 said:

They have achieved beyond the proverbial 'herd immunity' number. I don't think it matters at that level or rate of vaccinated. 

So because they achieved beyond the proverbial 'herd immunity' number, that's why they are treating ALL with love and respect?  

[AH173]

I don't how one can reach that conclusion with what was simply said on the update. 

 

Unless one has a supposed agenda. 

[Ms. Piffle]

52 minutes ago, AH173 said:

I don't how one can reach that conclusion with what was simply said on the update. 

 

Unless one has a supposed agenda. 

I agree 💯% brother.  It is not the conclusion I've reached.  I deeply apologize because I must have misunderstood what you had said.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by Polka Dot

[Thesauron]

I wonder how the 98% vaccinated including the gov body are treating the 2% unvaccinated Do they make them feel like they are not as spiritual?  That they are not being obedient to Jehovah?  Hasn't the gov body stated several times that it is a personal choice?   I do not understand why some are having such a hard time respecting that some brothers and sisters have chosen to not get vaccinated at this time.     
 
Why do the majority so often view the minority in a negative light?   Shouldn't we be more concerned about how we are treating our brothers than if their personal choice was the same as ours?  
 
I ask these things in love brothers.
 

They are being treated well. They have to remain careful and somewhat isolated. Many of them have chosen not to be vaccinated because of some condition of theirs, not because they think the vaccine is bad in one way or the other.

[Ms. Piffle]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

They are being treated well. They have to remain careful and somewhat isolated. Many of them have chosen not to be vaccinated because of some condition of theirs, not because they think the vaccine is bad in one way or the other.

Yes, this I know to be true as I have the privilege of enjoying zoom get togethers  with ones at Bethel.   But I love how you so eloquently expressed the feelings of ones there.   I was just posing rhetorical musings/questions.  Thank you brother. 

[Ms. Piffle]

18 minutes ago, Polka Dot said:

Yes, this I know to be true as I have the privilege of enjoying zoom get togethers  with ones at Bethel.   But I love how you so eloquently expressed the feelings of ones there.   I was just posing rhetorical musings/questions.  Thank you brother. 

Sometimes it feels like our brothers and sisters who do not wish to get vaccinated right now are looked down on - based on some of the comments.  (I apologize if that is not the case).  So I thought I would pose a few musings/questions to reflect on the fine examples of the 98% vaccinated ones at bethel including the gov body.  I think we can all agree that the 2% unvaccinated ones are still being treated with love and respect from the 98% vaccinated.  

[Ms. Piffle]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

They are being treated well. They have to remain careful and somewhat isolated. Many of them have chosen not to be vaccinated because of some condition of theirs, not because they think the vaccine is bad in one way or the other.

This sums up well how our brothers and sisters on this forum, in our congregations, etc.  who have chosen to not get vaccinated feel.  So let's show them the same love and respect. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Polka Dot

[Anthony]

On 7/16/2021 at 11:44 AM, outwalkin said:

Keep in mind Bethels are closed environments - no visiters and no outside visiting. The environment around us is different.

Exactly, I don’t think this was any indication at all that we will be able to meet in Kingdom Halls. Bro Hendricks told a congregation that the Governing Body hadn’t even began discussing that and that there was no impending decision or talks on the horizon just the other week ago, and I’m sure the video was no doubt already produced or at least planned when he said that. And he is the official United States spokesperson so he would know.