Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[sully313]

34 minutes ago, Cushi said:

I personally don’t believe the cry of peace and security will have anything to do with the Middle East. That’s something that mainly affects people living there. It makes more sense to me that it will be something that will grab the attention of the whole world. Something related to what people all over the globe are interested in, since the prophecy was recorded for true worshippers all around the world. 

There’s countries in the world where people are dealing with crucial issues like starvation and peace in the Middle East is the last thing on the people’s minds and certainly wouldn’t catch them off guard like 1 Thessalonians 5 describes if they heard it.

Personally i can see it having all or something to do with peace and security. I think this gaza peace deal is everywhere. College campuses and countrys everywhere are protesting with marches and whatever else the world does

 

Also i think it would catch the world off guard or by suprise as the world seems to think this issue will never get fixed as its been going on for a long long time...if all of a sudden they get some deal and say PEACE! I think people will say oh wow the people there finally (falsely though) got it together and fixed things!...But there will be none (peace)

 

I dunno i think this all is kinda fitting like a glove, but i admit to being hopefully biased

 

But im no prophet so ignore me haha

[Tortuga]

*** w23 February p. 16 par. 5 “Keep Your Senses, Be Watchful!” ***
When discussing Bible prophecy, however, we should avoid speculating. Why? Because we would not want to say anything that could cause disunity in the congregation. For instance, we may hear world leaders talk about how they can solve a particular conflict and bring peace and security. Instead of speculating that such a statement fulfills the prophecy at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, we need to keep up-to-date with the latest published information. When we base our discussions on material published by Jehovah’s organization, we help the congregation to remain united “in the same line of thought.”—1 Cor. 1:10; 4:6.
 

[Tortuga]

50 minutes ago, Cushi said:

I personally don’t believe the cry of peace and security will have anything to do with the Middle East. That’s something that mainly affects people living there. It makes more sense to me that it will be something that will grab the attention of the whole world. Something related to what people all over the globe are interested in, since the prophecy was recorded for true worshippers all around the world. 

There’s countries in the world where people are dealing with crucial issues like starvation and peace in the Middle East is the last thing on the people’s minds and certainly wouldn’t catch them off guard like 1 Thessalonians 5 describes if they heard it.

I agree. A peace treaty for any conflict makes sense. It doesn't fit this description.

*** w23 June p. 13 par. 15 Keep Ready for Jehovah’s Day ***
In the near future, God’s opposers will in some sense declare: “Peace and security!” (1 Thess. 5:3) Demon-inspired propaganda will fill the earth, misleading most
 

[chuck83]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

*** w23 February p. 16 par. 5 “Keep Your Senses, Be Watchful!” ***
When discussing Bible prophecy, however, we should avoid speculating. Why? Because we would not want to say anything that could cause disunity in the congregation. For instance, we may hear world leaders talk about how they can solve a particular conflict and bring peace and security. Instead of speculating that such a statement fulfills the prophecy at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, we need to keep up-to-date with the latest published information. When we base our discussions on material published by Jehovah’s organization, we help the congregation to remain united “in the same line of thought.”—1 Cor. 1:10; 4:6.
 

 

Yeah and this a very public "secular news"  category. Personal Study is very much private. I'd hate to see someone doxxed publicly over speculation.

[Cushi]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

*** w23 February p. 16 par. 5 “Keep Your Senses, Be Watchful!” ***
When discussing Bible prophecy, however, we should avoid speculating. Why? Because we would not want to say anything that could cause disunity in the congregation. For instance, we may hear world leaders talk about how they can solve a particular conflict and bring peace and security. Instead of speculating that such a statement fulfills the prophecy at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, we need to keep up-to-date with the latest published information. When we base our discussions on material published by Jehovah’s organization, we help the congregation to remain united “in the same line of thought.”—1 Cor. 1:10; 4:6.
 

Thanks for the reminder. I’ll try to stop speculating 😊

[New World Explorer]

3 hours ago, Tortuga said:

It doesn't fit this description.

But we do not know what fits description ...

 

We know some things about the declaration of “peace and security.” However, other things we do not know. We do not know what will lead up to it or how the declaration will be made. And we do not know whether it will involve just one proclamation or a series of announcements. W19
 

[Osprey]

Pretty sobering analysis by Sky:

 

Quote

As G7 leaders meet near the idyllic Italian city of Bari, the view is stunning.  

The Adriatic backdrop calm and serene.  

Don't be fooled. 

 

The outlook for the Western alliance is anything but.  

The allies meet battered and weakened by storms back home and a sense of impending doom hangs over them.

It says it all that the least dysfunctional of the G7 member states right now is Italy - a country more usually prone to political instability.

Going into this summit its host, Italy's leader, Georgia Meloni, boasted that hers is the strongest government in Europe, "going against the trend".

Who could argue with that? 

Not Emmanuel Macron, struggling to save France from the populist right after its election triumph a few days ago and the snap parliamentary vote he’s called  to follow.

Not Chancellor Olaf Scholz equally humbled by the same in Germany.

And certainly not Rishi Sunak, limping from one excruciating ordeal to another on the election trail, in Britain.

 

Outside of Europe, Meloni's other guests arrive with similar domestic baggage.  

Canada's Justin Trudeau faces rising disenchantment and Japan's Fumio Kishida approval ratings have never been worse.

And Joe Biden is in his own world of pain, personal and political. 

Allies and voters back home increasingly wonder if he will last the course to the election let alone another four years in office.

 

As war rages in Europe and beyond, there could not be a worse time for such weakness and division.

This year's G7 venue, near the walled city of Bari, has lessons for its guests from a long history of conflict, fought over by Byzantines, Saracens, Normans and Angevins. 

The leaders convene with their enemies at the gate.

Populist forces threaten to topple the citadels of liberal democracy across Europe.  

Russia is on the march in Ukraine - the conflict galvanising an alliance of autocracies to the East.

As host, Georgia Meloni will try to orchestrate a united response.  

Italy has been at the forefront of efforts for instance to use Russia’s confiscated billions to help finance the war in Ukraine.

But on the eve of this summit, the diplomacy seemed to be unravelling - with Europe reportedly accusing America of not pulling its weight in the initiative.

The allies know too well the price of dither and delay.  

The failure to send tanks to Ukraine before Russia could prepare its defences has proven extraordinarily costly on the battlefield.

Expectations of diplomatic progress in Bari are being managed. 

Excuses made. Democracy is messy.  

 

It's harder to marshal multiple democracies than it is for the enemy to run a totalitarian state.

But in truth there is no time for division - this could be the West's last best chance.

In a year President Trump may be in place, a man viscerally opposed to all the G7 stands for.  

He may be six months into dismantling NATO. 

France could be paralysed, its president a lame duck, Germany the same.

The enemies of freedom and democracy are doing what they can to hasten the West's demise.  

In Moscow, Tehran and Beijing they are looking on with glee -  untroubled by this latest gathering.  

Unless the allies can prove them wrong. 

Don't hold your breath.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-latest-russia-putin-kharkiv-sky-news-live-blog-12541713?postid=7811490#liveblog-body

Edited June 13 by Osprey

[JennyM]

Yeah. The world is in chaos which means Il do the best what I can. Life goes on.

work (Thank Jah, I found a job)

attend meetings

personal study everyday 

attend meetings 

do the ministry 

Prayer 

serve the bro and sis (pray for them, spend time and encourage them) 

 

 

[Dhanyel]

G7 leaders huddle in Italy, escaping political peril at home

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/13/politics/g-7-leaders-italy/index.html

Edited June 13 by Dhanyel

[cme]

And  despite it all, the cry of "peace and security" will be given.  We need not know how but, Jehovah has prophesied that, that cry will be certain.  There has to be wars in process  in order to give the "peace and security" cry.  We don't know or expect it because of the multi chaos around the world but, it will happen.

After that cry for peace and security destruction will follow instantly. 

Thessalonians 5:3

sudden destruction is to be instantly on them: Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of “peace and security” and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry. It will be sudden and inescapable. The Greek phrase contains two terms (rendered “sudden” and “be instantly on”) to emphasize the striking suddenness with which the destruction will come. A similar combination of terms appears at Lu 21:34, where the coming of Jehovah’s day is described.

Matthew 24:8

pangs of distress: The Greek word literally refers to the intense pain experienced during childbirth. While it is used here to refer to distress, pain, and suffering in a general sense, it may suggest that like birth pains the foretold troubles and suffering will increase in frequency, intensity, and duration in the time period before the great tribulation mentioned at Mt 24:21.

And this is where we find ourselves now before the great tribulation. The frequency, intensity and duration in the time period before the Great Tribulation.

 

[zoebarry]

I have already attended the convention this year.

 

on Sunday afternoon, we have a dramatic Bible reading. The introduction talks about how these things will shortly take place. I find it interesting that they highlight the destruction of Babylon The Great, and NOT peace and security…..

 

It could very well be the peace and security has already been fulfilled, the brothers just have not notified us yet.

[Tortuga]

39 minutes ago, zoebarry said:

I have already attended the convention this year.

 

on Sunday afternoon, we have a dramatic Bible reading. The introduction talks about how these things will shortly take place. I find it interesting that they highlight the destruction of Babylon The Great, and NOT peace and security…..

 

It could very well be the peace and security has already been fulfilled, the brothers just have not notified us yet.

I am not going to speculate about this change but earlier this year the public talk outline #71 was revised. One of the few changes to the outline was about 1Thess 5:1-3.  They removed the W19.10 reference material about P&S and added the w23.6 reference material that focuses on the rest of the scripture. The focus for that point in the outline seems to have shifted from the P&S to the arrival of Jehovah's Day. 

[trottigy]

1 hour ago, zoebarry said:

I have already attended the convention this year.

 

on Sunday afternoon, we have a dramatic Bible reading. The introduction talks about how these things will shortly take place. I find it interesting that they highlight the destruction of Babylon The Great, and NOT peace and security…..

 

It could very well be the peace and security has already been fulfilled, the brothers just have not notified us yet.

 

The final destruction of BtG has been the primary focus for decades. The reason for this is fairly simple. How do we know that a particular or series of "peace and security" declarations is the one(s) mentioned in 1 Thess? Answer - when BtG is attacked en mass - per the words that follow "peace and security" in that verse "then Sudden destruction is to be instantly on them."

 

So, looking for the attack on false religion is the clearest way to know that this particular "P & S" declaration is the one mentioned. 

 

This is from a 2013 Watchtower:

 

Quote

13 Read Revelation 7:1-4. While we wait for the fulfillment of 1 Thessalonians 5:3, powerful angels are holding back the destructive winds of the great tribulation. What are they waiting for? One key event is described by the apostle John—the final sealing of the anointed "slaves of our God." Once that final sealing has been completed, the angels will unleash the winds of destruction. What will happen then? (question)

14 Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, will meet her deserved end. "Peoples and crowds and nations and tongues" will be unable to give her effective support. Already we see indications that her demise is near. (Rev. 16:12; 17:15-18; 18:7, 8, 21)

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=2013844&par=21

 

Edited June 13 by trottigy

[Tortuga]

I really like this reminder about current world events.

*** w19 October p. 9 par. 3 Keep Busy During the Last of “the Last Days” ***
Just before that “day” begins, the nations will be proclaiming “Peace and security!” (Some translations say: “Peace and safety.”) World leaders sometimes use similar expressions when they talk about stabilizing relationships between nations. However, the announcement of “peace and security” that the Bible describes will be different.
 

[Doug]

2 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

The final destruction of BtG has been the primary focus for decades. The reason for this is fairly simple. How do we know that a particular or series of "peace and security" declarations is the one mentioned in 1 Thess? Answer - when BtG is attacked en mass - 

 

Technically, yes.   But the reason for the P&S is the grand deception that it is.   Understanding that, in order not to be fooled by it, we must be able to discern it.

 

The slave has never said "Just wait until BtG has been destroyed, then you will know the P&S prophesy was fulfilled."

 

As Richard quoted the w23 June par. 13  ~  Demon inspired propaganda will fill the earth, misleading most.

[Dages]

33 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I am not going to speculate about this change but earlier this year the public talk outline #71 was revised. One of the few changes to the outline was about 1Thess 5:1-3.  They removed the W19.10 reference material about P&S and added the w23.6 reference material that focuses on the rest of the scripture. The focus for that point in the outline seems to have shifted from the P&S to the arrival of Jehovah's Day. 

interesting, we don't have this update yet in French

[Tortuga]

I just searched the pre-recorded Regional Convention transcript and in three days, they didn't say P&S once. GT was mentioned one time and Armageddon was mentioned 11 times related to it being good news. A full three-day convention and it barely mentioned P&S, GT or Armageddon... 

[cme]

51 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

The final destruction of BtG has been the primary focus for decades. The reason for this is fairly simple. How do we know that a particular or series of "peace and security" declarations is the one(s) mentioned in 1 Thess? Answer - when BtG is attacked en mass - per the words that follow "peace and security" in that verse "then Sudden destruction is to be instantly on them."

 

So, looking for the attack on false religion is the clearest way to know that this particular "P & S" declaration is the one mentioned. 

 

This is from a 2013 Watchtower:

 

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=2013844&par=21

 

That's interesting.  I've spoken with my husband on numerous occasions that we will not see it coming.  Things can change rapidly and possibly we would have not seen it coming.  The GB says that it will even surprise us.

[trottigy]

1 hour ago, Doug said:

 

The slave has never said "Just wait until BtG has been destroyed, then you will know the P&S prophesy was fulfilled."

 

 

Hmm, isn't that exactly what they have said?

 

Quote

In the aftermath of each of the two world wars, the nations clamored for peace. After the first world war, the League of Nations was formed in the hope of bringing peace. Later, after the second global war, the United Nations became a popular hope of bringing peace to the earth. Government and religious leaders have looked to those agencies to bring about peaceful conditions for mankind. For example, in 1986, the United Nations sanctioned a highly publicized International Year of Peace. That year, leaders from many nations and religions joined the head of the Catholic Church in Assisi, Italy, to offer prayers for peace.

 

11 However, neither that proclamation of peace and security nor others like it have been the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Why not? Because the foretold “sudden destruction” has not yet occurred.

 

That's the same article mentioned earlier - just 2 paragraphs up.

 

Note this part:

 

"neither that proclamation of peace and security nor others like it have been the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Why not? Because the foretold “sudden destruction” has not yet occurred."

 

So, seeing the "sudden destruction" IS how we will know "this is it."

Edited June 13 by trottigy

[Percy]

21 minutes ago, cme said:

That's interesting.  I've spoken with my husband on numerous occasions that we will not see it coming.  Things can change rapidly and possibly we would have not seen it coming.  The GB says that it will even surprise us.

Remember that on 28 June 1914, a shot from a 19 year old student killed the heir apparent of the massive Austro-Hungarian Empire. It was like a Pawn checkmating the King. After that, events went out of control. Our world is the result of what happened that day. Nobody saw it coming except for the Bible Students announcing 'The End of the Gentile Times'. The anniversary is but 2 weeks away. Here is a back page of some letters I sent out. I had at least one positive response from it. He wanted to know 'why 1914'.

[Percy]

Knowledge Network (British Columbia) recently carried a documentary called 'Apocalypse: Never Ending War 1918-1926'.

1:29:07 total with colourized video from the era. A bit gruesome in spots so be forewarned if you want to see it.

The premise is that the war never really stopped and fits perfectly with what Jesus said that it was the beginning of Pangs of Distress. Full movie:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1D54y1o7AK/?uid=42563144353479316F37414B

Edited June 13 by Percy
switched movie location

[New World Explorer]

6 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I am not going to speculate about this change but earlier this year the public talk outline #71 was revised. One of the few changes to the outline was about 1Thess 5:1-3.  They removed the W19.10 reference material about P&S and added the w23.6 reference material that focuses on the rest of the scripture. The focus for that point in the outline seems to have shifted from the P&S to the arrival of Jehovah's Day. 

Thanks for highlighting this Richard, very valuable information. 

[Tortuga]

17 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

Thanks for highlighting this Richard, very valuable information. 

Here is the old reference

“Jehovah’s day” will catch many by surprise [Read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3] (w19.10 8-9 ¶3-6)

Here is the new one

“Jehovah’s day” will catch many by surprise [Read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3] (w23.06 8-9 ¶3-5)

 

I thought it was an interesting change.

Edited June 13 by Tortuga

[JennyM]

Peace and security will be believable because there's an ongoing wars. 

 

[MChill14]

8 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

Hmm, isn't that exactly what they have said?

 

 

That's the same article mentioned earlier - just 2 paragraphs up.

 

Note this part:

 

"neither that proclamation of peace and security nor others like it have been the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Why not? Because the foretold “sudden destruction” has not yet occurred."

 

So, seeing the "sudden destruction" IS how we will know "this is it."

Yes, and further to your point the Watchtower has made these comments with regard to 1 Thess 5:3.

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/library/r1/lp-e/all-publications/watchtower/the-watchtower-2004/february-1

 

¹³ Since Bible prophecies are often fully understood only after they are fulfilled or are in the process of fulfillment, we will have to wait and see. It is of interest, though, that Paul compared the sudden destruction following the cry of “Peace and security!” to the birth pang of a pregnant woman. Over a period of about nine months, an expectant mother becomes increasingly aware of the baby that is growing within her. She may be able to hear her baby’s heartbeat or feel its movements in the womb. It may even kick her. The signs often become more and more pronounced until, one day, she feels a sharp pain, a pang, indicating that the hoped-for event—the baby’s birth—has arrived. Hence, however the prophesied cry of “Peace and security!” may be fulfilled, it will lead to a sudden, painful, but ultimately blessed event—the destruction of wickedness and the beginning of a new world system.

 

So, we may only know that 1 Thess 5:3 has been fulfilled AFTER it has happened, and therefore could already by seeing the attack on BTG.

 

I also remember a talk by Anthony Morris during an AM. Title of the talk was “This Is It.” I don’t have the time to find it right now but he said something along the lines of….. When the GT begins “you’re not going to need a breaking news announcement on JW.ORG.”

I’m sure one of you studious bros and sis can find it 😃.