Aliens

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

 

I want to believe, too.  However, reasoning on the scriptures indicates otherwise.

 

It's the issue of universal sovereignty that provides the conclusion that, currently, humans are the highest form of physical creation in this or any other galaxy. 

 

We are in this miserable state of imperfection in order for us to prove Satan a liar.  If there were other intelligent creatures in the physical universe, they would have been created perfect.  Their perfect devotion to Jehovah would show that Jehovah's physical creation is not flawed and that intelligent physical creatures with free will would serve Jehovah out of love. Their faithful example would prove Satan a liar.  There would be no reason, no need to subject all humanity to 6,000+ years of suffering, pain, misery, and death. The 3 rebels in Eden would have been destroyed on the spot. 

 

The fact that we are Witnesses in this trial of universal sovereignty is indicated by the facts that the angels are intently watching how all this plays out, the rebellious spirit creatures in Noah's day chose humanity to live among, Satan tested humanity, and that 144,000 humans are (going to be) granted immortality, will sit on thrones and judge not only humans, but even angels. These anointed will live in heaven forever. All these factors added together indicate that this whole situation involving our salvation is not some minor event playing out on 1 planet while the rest of the physical universe is in harmony with Jehovah. No, what is happening here is the most important event in the physical universe. 

 

Now, after all this is settled, Satan is destroyed, and we all become children of God in the complete sense, then who knows? It's a big universe. Jehovah will want to do something on the 8th day. 

 

What about the issue of Jehovah's purpose going unfulfilled if Adam and Eve don't have children to spread Paradise? And those children need to be redeemed from sin.

[Shawnster]

3 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

What about the issue of Jehovah's purpose going unfulfilled if Adam and Eve don't have children to spread Paradise? And those children need to be redeemed from sin.

 

Guess that depends on whether or not you feel destroying Adam and Eve and starting with a new pair of humans violates that purpose. 

 

Or, perhaps Jehovah could have preserved their lives long enough to allow them to have children and he could/would shield such children from the effects of sin the way he did Jesus. 

 

*** g90 4/8 pp. 10-11 Extraterrestrials—Finding the Answer ***
If God did create such beings, he did so before he created Adam and Eve. Such beings either remained faithful to their Creator, or like Adam and Eve, they sinned and fell into imperfection.

 

But if they became imperfect, they needed a redeemer. As one essayist put it: “One has this dreadful thought that on Friday [the day Jesus Christ was executed], every Friday, somewhere in the universe Jesus is being hanged high for someone’s sins.” But that is not Scriptural. The Bible tells us that Jesus “died with reference to sin once for all time.”—Romans 6:10.

 

What if these beings had remained perfect? Well, when Adam and Eve sinned, they were, in effect, questioning God’s right to rule over a world of intelligent physical beings. If another planet existed at that time, a world full of intelligent physical beings who were living harmoniously and loyally under God’s rule, would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify that God’s rule does indeed work? This conclusion seems inescapable, since he has already used even imperfect humans as witnesses in his behalf on that very issue.—Isaiah 43:10.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=101990244&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=14

[LeolaRootStew]

27 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

 

Guess that depends on whether or not you feel destroying Adam and Eve and starting with a new pair of humans violates that purpose. 

 

Or, perhaps Jehovah could have preserved their lives long enough to allow them to have children and he could/would shield such children from the effects of sin the way he did Jesus. 

 

*** g90 4/8 pp. 10-11 Extraterrestrials—Finding the Answer ***
If God did create such beings, he did so before he created Adam and Eve. Such beings either remained faithful to their Creator, or like Adam and Eve, they sinned and fell into imperfection.

 

But if they became imperfect, they needed a redeemer. As one essayist put it: “One has this dreadful thought that on Friday [the day Jesus Christ was executed], every Friday, somewhere in the universe Jesus is being hanged high for someone’s sins.” But that is not Scriptural. The Bible tells us that Jesus “died with reference to sin once for all time.”—Romans 6:10.

 

What if these beings had remained perfect? Well, when Adam and Eve sinned, they were, in effect, questioning God’s right to rule over a world of intelligent physical beings. If another planet existed at that time, a world full of intelligent physical beings who were living harmoniously and loyally under God’s rule, would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify that God’s rule does indeed work? This conclusion seems inescapable, since he has already used even imperfect humans as witnesses in his behalf on that very issue.—Isaiah 43:10.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=101990244&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=14

 

I don't think that article addresses the issue. Even if there were a planet out there of perfect, loyal people, that wouldn't prove that God's rule is better than human rule. The only way to do that is what God did already - give us a chance to prove it. 

 

Second point - would that planet of faithful people be human or something else? Because the faithfulness of some of the angels doesn't prove anything either. Satan didn't need 100% of humans to turn away from Jehovah for the court case to begin - it just takes one to pose the question: whose rule is best?

 

And I don't see how Jehovah could forgive the debt of sin if it wasn't paid by a ransom. I don't think he'd have a basis to shield Adam and Eve's children from their imperfection, even if the existence of faithful ones somehow proved Jehovah was sovereign.

[Jake]

I still believe in other life out there. Again, the bible only applies to humans. If there is a planet out there inhabited by intelligent life (let's just say they're called "Galaxians"). Maybe the Galaxians were loyal in their temptation, so they don't need a ransom and a bible like ours. Once you drag humans into the argument, it becomes invalid because, of course the bible is for humans. But as for other life, there is no definitive yes or no.

[Tortuga]

Once Jehovah created the earth and  mankind and said it was "good", doesn't that mean his creation was perfect? Doesn't it mean that the earth and everything on it was his best creation? Would life on other planets also be called 'good'? Are there variations of "good"?

 

I like to think that the physical life he created on the earth is unique and there isn't any other life. His creation was 'good' not just 'good enough'.

[Dustparticle]

24 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Once Jehovah created the earth and  mankind and said it was "good", doesn't that mean his creation was perfect? Doesn't it mean that the earth and everything on it was his best creation? Would life on other planets also be called 'good'? Are there variations of "good"?

 

I like to think that the physical life he created on the earth is unique and there isn't any other life. His creation was 'good' not just 'good enough'.

Would Jehovah call this good? 
 

https://aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Alien_(Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind)?file=Cropped_image_of_gray_aliens.png

[Tortuga]

39 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

Would Jehovah call this good? 
 

https://aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Alien_(Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind)?file=Cropped_image_of_gray_aliens.png

If he already created intelligent physical life and called it 'good' wouldn't that be his best? Why would he created a different intelligent physical life and call it 'good' also? 

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, Jake said:

Galaxians were loyal in their temptation, so they don't need a ransom and a bible like ours.

I don't understand the logic. If they were tempted, wouldn't that have settled the universal issue? Wouldn't it had already proven Jehovah is right? The second Satan defied Jehovah, wouldn't Jehovah have rightly destroyed him?

Edited 19 hours ago by Tortuga

[Dustparticle]

11 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

If he already created intelligent physical life and called it 'good' wouldn't that be his best? Why would he created a different intelligent physical life and call it 'good' also? 

As far as we know he has not.

[Witness1970]

I heard the idea about 50 years ago about Jehovah would not create intelligent life on another planet until the question was answered that was brought up in the Garden of Edan.  And if there were intelligent faithful servants on some other planet then Jehovah would not have to prove anything.

 

I sort of expanded that belief to say that there was no life on any other planet.  But actually, the way it was explained to me was that it actually only applied to intelligent creatures that could decide whether or not they wanted to stay faithful to Jehovah.  With that viewpoint bacteria could actually exist on other planets, but not life that had free will.

 

Sometimes I am a little slow to learn.

[LeolaRootStew]

12 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I don't understand the logic. If they were tempted, wouldn't that have settled the universal issue? Wouldn't it had already proven Jehovah is right? The second Satan defied Jehovah, wouldn't Jehovah have rightly destroyed him?

 

Why would that prove anything? Satan tacitly claimed that rulership without God would be preferable. Referencing a galactic group of people who benefit from God's rule would not contradict his point - only allowing Satan a chance to rule would prove that it can't be done better. 

 

In addition, the faithfulness of a different species would not prove that humans have the ability to stay faithful anymore than the existence of faithful angels proves that humans have the ability to remain faithful. Only Jesus remaining faithful as a human could prove that.

 

Is there something I'm missing?

[carlos]

36 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

the faithfulness of a different species would not prove that humans have the ability to stay faithful anymore than the existence of faithful angels proves that humans have the ability to remain faithful.

 

Justinah, your points sound logical. For me the most convincing part of the argument for no other intelligent life is what if one, or several, of those other intelligent races sinned like Adam and Eve? Would Jesus have to be born as one of them and die for their sins? That sounds very strange.

[Bruceq]

NWT Isa. 45:18

For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

Contemporary English Version
The LORD alone is God! He created the heavens and made a world where people can live, instead of creating an empty desert. The LORD alone is God; there are no others.

Good News Translation
The LORD created the heavens--he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth--he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god.

Smith's Literal Translation
For thus said Jehovah creating the heavens, He the God forming the earth, and he made it; he prepared it, be created it not in vain, he formed it to be dwelt in: I Jehovah and none besides.

New American Bible
For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not as an empty waste did he create it, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

 

Psalm 115:16

 ^“As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men.” [Not earth plus another planet…yet].

 

Although God created the earth first, He created the earth for humans not humans for the earth. That shows a purpose in the creation of the planet earth AND especially humans.

 

What is the purpose of trillions of galaxies and planets in the physical realm of existence well beyond our vision to appreciate? Only humans in the physical realm will be able to eventually achieve immortality and everlasting life. Therefore, we will travel beyond our tiny planet someday. Eternity is a long time. And likely there is life but not intelligent life with free will of choice. The free will of choice to choose to worship the creator must exist on only one planet thus far because of the element of choice and the issue of obedience and disobedience of intelligent creation. The issue must be settled before we can settle other planets, or other intelligent life may be created elsewhere someday.

Edited 3 hours ago by Bruceq

[Tortuga]

3 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

Is there something I'm missing?

I was replying to a comment about an intelligent race on another planet that had been tested. 

 

The issue raised by Satan is whether or not a human creation with free will would choose to serve Jehovah. If Jehovah had already created a race of perfect intelligent creatures on a different planet and gave them free will and they proved their loyalty to Jehovah through a similar challenge, then the issue would already be settled. When Satan raised the challenge on earth, Jehovah would have dismissed the challenge, the same way he will in the future. So if there are perfect intelligent creatures on another planet, they obviously were not tested as the comment I was replying to stated. That's why I didn't understand the logic of the comment.

[minister159]

3 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

only allowing Satan a chance to rule would prove that it can't be done better. 

Since 1914, Satan was cast out of heaven and confined to the vicinity of the earth. This is where he is misleading and waging war, not somewhere else in the universe. Jehovah has thrown him into Tartarus and he will have his final chance to prove his point, once and for all, at the end of the 1,000 years.

 

He and all those who choose to side with him, both spirit and human, will be thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, never to disturb the peace that will reign throughout the universe forever. His destruction has already been foretold, so there is no possibility of his being given a second chance somewhere else.

 

The issue of universal sovereignty will have been settled once and for all, without the need to give him or any other rebel(s) an opportunity to prove their point. It will set a precedent in the universal court of justice. 

[LeolaRootStew]

4 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I was replying to a comment about an intelligent race on another planet that had been tested. 

 

The issue raised by Satan is whether or not a human creation with free will would choose to serve Jehovah. If Jehovah had already created a race of perfect intelligent creatures on a different planet and gave them free will and they proved their loyalty to Jehovah through a similar challenge, then the issue would already be settled. When Satan raised the challenge on earth, Jehovah would have dismissed the challenge, the same way he will in the future. So if there are perfect intelligent creatures on another planet, they obviously were not tested as the comment I was replying to stated. That's why I didn't understand the logic of the comment.

 

I understood your premise, I just don't think it applies. 

 

If another species had chosen their version of not eating the fruit when tempted by Satan, that wouldn't have answered who had the right to rule. Unless Satan had been allowed to rule to prove his point about sovereignty, the preference of whomever he tempted would not prove one way or another whose rule is best, just whose rule is preferred.

 

It would be like someone said soda is better than water, but you refused to try the soda at all. That doesn't prove that water is better and it would be a poor basis to ban soda across the universe. If, however, people drank soda and decades later they were all fat it would be proven to be worse than water and could rightly be banned.

 

Do you see what I mean? Until it is tested, it's just a preference. Once it is tested, it never needs to be retested. If another planet of people had refused Satan's temptation, it wouldn't have proven any other point than that they preferred Jehovah's rule, and it would have no effect on us.

[trottigy]

There is a lot of math and science "stuff" all the way down to how the heavier elements are made that assists in understanding why the universe is so large to make our habitat planet with life and all those elements. I imagine Jehovah explaining all that to us one day.

 

And if He wanted you and me to know about other life out there (other than in the spirit real), He would have written it down in the book that explains everything else he wanted me and you to know. Apparently, we don't need to know.

[Shawnster]

24 minutes ago, Bruceq said:

Only humans in the physical realm will be able to eventually achieve immortality and everlasting life.

 

Just a clarification. Humans in the physical realm will never have immortality.  That is reserved only for those human anointed sons of God. They receive immortality upon their resurrection to heaven. 

[Tortuga]

12 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

I understood your premise, I just don't think it applies. 

 

If another species had chosen their version of not eating the fruit when tempted by Satan, that wouldn't have answered who had the right to rule. Unless Satan had been allowed to rule to prove his point about sovereignty, the preference of whomever he tempted would not prove one way or another whose rule is best, just whose rule is preferred.

 

It would be like someone said soda is better than water, but you refused to try the soda at all. That doesn't prove that water is better and it would be a poor basis to ban soda across the universe. If, however, people drank soda and decades later they were all fat it would be proven to be worse than water and could rightly be banned.

 

Do you see what I mean? Until it is tested, it's just a preference. Once it is tested, it never needs to be retested. If another planet of people had refused Satan's temptation, it wouldn't have proven any other point than that they preferred Jehovah's rule, and it would have no effect on us.

I see what you are saying. If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit, how many times do you think Jehovah would allow Satan or any other creature raise the same issue and temptation?

[LeolaRootStew]

2 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I see what you are saying. If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit, how many times do you think Jehovah would allow Satan or any other creature raise the same issue and temptation?

 

Until it was proven one way or the other.

[Shawnster]

28 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

It would be like someone said soda is better than water, but you refused to try the soda at all. That doesn't prove that water is better and it would be a poor basis to ban soda across the universe. If, however, people drank soda and decades later they were all fat it would be proven to be worse than water and could rightly be banned.

 

Do you see what I mean? Until it is tested, it's just a preference. Once it is tested, it never needs to be retested. If another planet of people had refused Satan's temptation, it wouldn't have proven any other point than that they preferred Jehovah's rule, and it would have no effect on us.

 

Perhaps I do not understand. Based on your illustration, it sounds like humans (or any physical intelligence) must sin or needed to sin in order to prove Satan's accusation false.  

 

I mean, if the only way to prove water is healthier than soda is to allow a group of people to drink soda and develop health problems, then in order to prove water is healthier is that these groups of people must drink soda.  No amount of study, research, or meditation will prove soda is unhealthy. 

 

So if drinking soda is equal to sin and rebellion, then Adam's sin and rebellion was inevitable. It had to happen. Satan could never be proved a liar. 

 

To take this a step further and apply it to multiple different physical intelligences (let's call them Martians), then they all must go through this process.  This would be like each separate group of humans must perform their own soda drinking so that each group can prove soda is unhealthy for everyone.  The accusation could be raised that soda drinking is only unhealthy for Polynesians or white people. Brown or tan skinned people or people who live in Scandinavia can drink soda and be just fine. One test cannot apply to all types of people and the only way to test the situation is through deliberate action. 

 

The only way to prove Jehovah's way of rulership is the best way of rulership is to go through sin, imperfection and death.  And this only proves Jehovah's way of ruling is best only for humans. The Martians or Vulcans, or Wookies might actually be better off without Jehovah's rule. Each one of those separate physical intelligence must go through this same process because that's the only way.  It's not possible to have one case study with one species apply to all physical creation. 

 

That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct? What am I missing? 

Edited 2 hours ago by Shawnster

[LeolaRootStew]

9 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

 

Perhaps I do not understand. Based on your illustration, it sounds like humans (or any physical intelligence) must sin or needed to sin in order to prove Satan's accusation false.  

 

Yes. Emphasis on the word "prove". Humans could say they don't think Satan would rule as well as Jehovah, and have a variety of reasons, but without a visible alternative to point to, it's just a theory. If there were sufficient proof in the Garden of Eden that Jehovah's rule is best, we wouldn't have needed thousands of years to show it.

 

"I mean, if the only way to prove water is healthier than soda is to allow a group of people to drink soda and develop health problems, then in order to prove water is healthier is that these groups of people must drink soda.  No amount of study, research, or meditation will prove soda is unhealthy."

 

1) How could Adam prove that soda is bad for you? Where would he do this research? What would he meditate on? 

2) Unlike the health effects of soda, universal sovereignty can't be proven in a laboratory. I don't know how Jehovah could prove his rulership is best without someone attempting another way. Can you give me an example of how this could be proven if Satan's temptation had failed?

 

"So if drinking soda is equal to sin and rebellion, then Adam's sin and rebellion was inevitable. It had to happen. Satan could never be proved a liar."

 

That does not follow. Not having the ability to prove someone is lying does not obligate you to do as they say. They could have refused his offer without providing any proof at all.

 

"To take this a step further and apply it to multiple different physical intelligences (let's call them Martians), then they all must go through this process.  This would be like each separate group of humans must perform their own soda drinking so that each group can prove soda is unhealthy for everyone.  The accusation could be raised that soda drinking is only unhealthy for Polynesians or white people. Brown or tan skinned people or people who live in Scandinavia can drink soda and be just fine. One test cannot apply to all types of people and the only way to test the situation is through deliberate action."

 

Jehovah told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree. He did not say it only applied to certain ethnicities, so everyone who would later be born would have the same direction. In order for anyone to reason as you suggest, they must start with the premise that Jehovah lied. If they are doing that, they are siding with Satan, not conducting some neutral study on the effects of soda. To test the soda is to call Jehovah a liar. Any other species that might exist in the universe would be calling Jehovah a liar if they drank the soda. And again, we are not obligated to "prove" that soda is unhealthy. Jehovah said don't eat the fruit; he did not say we need to prove that it's a bad idea to eat the fruit. 

 

"The only way to prove Jehovah's way of rulership is the best way of rulership is to go through sin, imperfection and death."  

 

Yes, otherwise it would just be belief. Jehovah is the only one who understood without proof that his rulership is best. 

 

"And this only proves Jehovah's way of ruling is best only for humans. The Martians or Vulcans, or Wookies might actually be better off without Jehovah's rule. Each one of those separate physical intelligence must go through this same process because that's the only way.  It's not possible to have one case study with one species apply to all physical creation."

 

In this scenario, Jehovah has stated that his rule is best for all intelligent Creation. By proving Satan a liar for human rulership it would prove Satan couldn't be trusted at all and Jehovah can. Jehovah would not need to prove himself again.

 

"That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct?"

 

Nope

[Tortuga]

55 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

Until it was proven one way or the other.

I thought whether or not they ate the fruit was their test of obedience. Are you saying that if they didn't eat the fruit that Jehovah would allow mankind to be continually tested? He would allow Satan or any creation to challenge his right to rule and give them the opportunity to prove if they were right? If mankind willingly accepted Jehovah's sovereignty, why would he subject mankind or any creation to that?

[LeolaRootStew]

2 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I thought whether or not they ate the fruit was their test of obedience. Are you saying that if they didn't eat the fruit that Jehovah would allow mankind to be continually tested? He would allow Satan or any creation to challenge his right to rule and give them the opportunity to prove if they were right? If mankind willingly accepted Jehovah's sovereignty, why would he subject mankind or any creation to that?

 

It was their test of obedience. But passing an obedience test is not the same as proving Jehovah's rule is best. Their obedience doesn't touch that.

 

And how would Jehovah "allow" Satan an opportunity to prove he could rule better if no one decided to follow him? Jehovah is not obligated to provide followers to any would-be rivals.

 

I don't know what Jehovah would have allowed Satan to do if they had rejected his temptation. He lied to them, but is that a death sentence? Is calling Jehovah a liar a death sentence? I don't know. He obviously deserves to die now because he has caused so many deaths, but that would not be true if they had rejected his temptation. I am unsure how Jehovah would have handled it.

[Tortuga]

15 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

It was their test of obedience. But passing an obedience test is not the same as proving Jehovah's rule is best. Their obedience doesn't touch that.

 

And how would Jehovah "allow" Satan an opportunity to prove he could rule better if no one decided to follow him? Jehovah is not obligated to provide followers to any would-be rivals.

 

I don't know what Jehovah would have allowed Satan to do if they had rejected his temptation. He lied to them, but is that a death sentence? Is calling Jehovah a liar a death sentence? I don't know. He obviously deserves to die now because he has caused so many deaths, but that would not be true if they had rejected his temptation. I am unsure how Jehovah would have handled it.

Okay, but back to whether or not there is intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets.

 

I don't think the events on earth would have taken place if other intelligent physical creation with freewill exists somewhere other than earth.