Mormon founder Joseph Smith wed 40 wives

[New World Explorer]

The founder of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith, wed as many as 40 wives, including some who were already married and one as young as 14 years old, the church acknowledged in a surprising new essay.

 

Whole article:

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/11/living/mormon-founder-polygamy/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

 

 

 

{{ Moved this topic from the JW related News, Info, and Interests forum to the secular In the News & Current Events forum since the topic has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. - Bob }}

Edited November 11, 2014 by Dismal_Bliss
Move topic to proper forum.

[Hartley]

Summary: It was Gods fault. Josheph Smith knew better and he only married at the point of a sword.

It reminds me of an earlier statement where God had reconsidered letting "black people" into the church.

[seagull]

The only problem with picking at the ridiculous aspects of things that organisations like the Mormons and SDA did over 100 years ago is that you invite criticism about things like Russell's pyramidology or wild statements about aluminium and vaccinations that the brothers made in the twenties.

[New World Explorer]

The only problem with picking at the ridiculous aspects of things that organisations like the Mormons and SDA did over 100 years ago is that you invite criticism about things like Russell's pyramidology or wild statements about aluminium and vaccinations that the brothers made in the twenties.

No comparison ... 40 wives kills pyramidology ha ha ha

[seagull]

You could argue some scriptural precedence for multiple wives...

[ChocoBro]

The only problem with picking at the ridiculous aspects of things that organisations like the Mormons and SDA did over 100 years ago is that you invite criticism about things like Russell's pyramidology or wild statements about aluminium and vaccinations that the brothers made in the twenties.

 

I don't know about any wild statements concerning vaccinations or aluminum, but I sure do hear a lot about the dangers of vaccines and aluminum in modern-day documentaries on TV. Aluminum has been linked to breast cancer in women and dementia. Some vaccines have been linked to autism in children. (not condemning the application of vaccines in general, nor do I deny the practicality of aluminum as a material... just saying the dangers are not out of the question at all)

 

As a general rule, the scientific community in the early twentieth century, was a confused, mixed-bag of semi-scientific theses and questionable methods. Some of the scientific insights from that era still lay the basis for today's science, despite having been questionable from the start! (see for example blood medicine, which is slowly raising a lot of questions, not to mention Kinsey and the pseudoscientific data on the sexual behaviour of humans that he collected in prisons and bordellos )

 

And I don't think there's anybody here who doesn't know that the light in those days was not at its' brightest. Still, the founders of the Bible Students never once questioned Jesus condemning words on polygamy. It has always been clear that Christian men are to only marry one woman.

 

In this sense, Joseph Smith is no different than a certain other religious founder who grew up in an overall monogamous culture and, apparently for self-centered reasons, had an epiphany which allowed him to marry as many women as he desired.

 

You will always find people that will use a statement or topic to re-direct criticism back at us. But there is a huge difference between making some controversial statements on scientific issues in the twenties or thirties, or some minor misinterpretations as opposed to re-instituting polygamy.

[Brother_Bliss]

I moved this topic from the JW related News, Info, and Interests forum to the secular In the News & Current Events forum since the topic has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

The only problem with picking at the ridiculous aspects of things that organisations like the Mormons and SDA did over 100 years ago is that you invite criticism about things like Russell's pyramidology or wild statements about aluminium and vaccinations that the brothers made in the twenties.

 

Seems to me he simply shared a CNN article, and now you are the one who has invited such critical discussion.

 

Here's the difference....

 

Jehovah's organization: "Yeah, we've had some interesting brothers with whacked out ideas submitting articles back then. Isn't it nice to have a writing committee overseeing what gets published today."

 

Mormons: "Polygamy is justified between the 1840's and the 1890's because the Lord had commanded that it be practiced during those 50 years for the sake of establishing the Church of Latter-Day Saints. After this brief period, the Lord commanded the cessation of the practice."

[Shawnster]

The only problem with picking at the ridiculous aspects of things that organisations like the Mormons and SDA did over 100 years ago is that you invite criticism about things like Russell's pyramidology or wild statements about aluminium and vaccinations that the brothers made in the twenties.

On the surface, yes. However, that isn't the case. Yes, we had some wacked out ideas, like Bob said, but how do we view those ideas today? Does the Organization teach those ideas were wrong and we have corrected our thinking, or do we bend over backward to justify the wrong ideas? It's clear that Mormons today do not believe polygamy was a sin in the 1800s. They don't say God tolerated polygamy then. They teach it was his will.

[normadenardo]

in reply to the idea of "wild statements".........

 

Aborted fetal tissue IS used in the production of many vaccines. This is from purposely aborted fetus's, not spontaneously aborted. The following web page is a good starting point in understanding this issue. Of course this would be a conscience issue as no direct instruction has come from the FDS in many years. My conscience takes into consideration many principles from the bible, however this is how my conscience sees it and I understand that others are different. There are many reasons why I do not vaccinate, why my mother did not vaccinate and why my grandmother did not vaccinate. The use of aborted fetal tissue in the production of many vaccines is  probably one of the main reasons.  I have researched this for many years (pre internet also). please.. I am not bringing this up to argue or debate. Just a suggestion that Satan has his hand in many things and I truly feel this is one of them. All of this world is lying in the hands of Satan. Be it medical (which includes pharmaceutical), political, education, religious (false), and of course the list goes on. I will be glad when there is no more confusion as to what we should and should not put into our bodies, when they are perfect.

 

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/abortedtissue.htm

Edited November 11, 2014 by normaclutter

[Brother_Bliss]

The topic for discussion is the surprising new essay released by the LDS. If we're not going to stick to the topic, I'm going to lock this thread.

See now what you have done seagull?

[Cool Cat]

Norma, I think you posted in the wrong thread!

[Toy Poodles]

According to the church's essay, Smith had not wanted to take multiple wives, but relented after an angel appeared to him three times between 1834-1842. On the angel's last visit, the church said, "the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully."

 

Surely sounds like a Satanic angel.

[well]

According to the church's essay, Smith had not wanted to take multiple wives, but relented after an angel appeared to him three times between 1834-1842. On the angel's last visit, the church said, "the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully."

Surely sounds like a Satanic angel.

Dunno why, but I find the reason is quite ridiculuous though demon might do this thing...

[Shawnster]

 

in reply to the idea of "wild statements".........

 

At the risk of staying off topic... (please don't lock this because of me)...  Norma, your comment illustrates our point.  We're talking about wacked out ideas in the past that we no longer cling to.  Russell believed the Great Pyramid had special significance to Jehovah.  In the 20s, the Organization had some non-scriptural and non-reasonable views on organ transplants, vaccination, etc...  Today, the Slave is a bit more in harmony with scripture.  We don't have a blanket view on vaccines.  You are entitled to your opinion (as you stated above) and you rightfully base your opinion on well-researched evidence in order to make an informed decision.  The Slave has came out and clearly stated that the idea of the Great Pyramid being a testimony to Jehovah was a wrong idea.  We have clearly stated the light gets brighter and some of our ideas from the 20s were wrong.

 

In contrast, that is not what the LDS teach about Joseph Smith and polygamy.  As the article points out, they support the notion that polygamy in the Mormon church during the 1880s was of divine direction.  It served a purpose for a time.  Further, the church continues to go to great lengths to present Joseph Smith as a saint.  Nowhere has the present day Mormon church stated that what they believed in the 1880s was wrong and that they've moved on.  Instead, their official stand is that polygamy was divinely inspired and served a necessary purpose during that time period.

 

No, there is not a case to be made about a scriptural precedent for polygamy.  Jehovah allowed such things to happen in the past, but allowing is not the same thing as divinely inspiring or requiring polygamy to be an acceptable practice.  We just had this discussion in the Draw Close to Jehovah book within the last month or so.  

[normadenardo]

Norma, I think you posted in the wrong thread!

nO..    i was going off of what jez posted : "The only problem with picking at the ridiculous aspects of things that organisations like the Mormons and SDA did over 100 years ago is that you invite criticism about things like Russell's pyramidology or wild statements about aluminium and vaccinations that the brothers made in the twenties. "

[normadenardo]

At the risk of staying off topic... (please don't lock this because of me)...  Norma, your comment illustrates our point.  We're talking about wacked out ideas in the past that we no longer cling to.  Russell believed the Great Pyramid had special significance to Jehovah.  In the 20s, the Organization had some non-scriptural and non-reasonable views on organ transplants, vaccination, etc...  Today, the Slave is a bit more in harmony with scripture.  We don't have a blanket view on vaccines.  You are entitled to your opinion (as you stated above) and you rightfully base your opinion on well-researched evidence in order to make an informed decision.  The Slave has came out and clearly stated that the idea of the Great Pyramid being a testimony to Jehovah was a wrong idea.  We have clearly stated the light gets brighter and some of our ideas from the 20s were wrong.

 

In contrast, that is not what the LDS teach about Joseph Smith and polygamy.  As the article points out, they support the notion that polygamy in the Mormon church during the 1880s was of divine direction.  It served a purpose for a time.  Further, the church continues to go to great lengths to present Joseph Smith as a saint.  Nowhere has the present day Mormon church stated that what they believed in the 1880s was wrong and that they've moved on.  Instead, their official stand is that polygamy was divinely inspired and served a necessary purpose during that time period.

 

No, there is not a case to be made about a scriptural precedent for polygamy.  Jehovah allowed such things to happen in the past, but allowing is not the same thing as divinely inspiring or requiring polygamy to be an acceptable practice.  We just had this discussion in the Draw Close to Jehovah book within the last month or so.  

Shawn,

I agree with your post. I only posted because just because vaccinations were included in a reply and I feel educated on the subject and wanted to give my point of view. Also I fee that even if the FDS doesn't say something is wrong to do.. it doesn't mean we shouldn't each personally take into consideration these things. I understand it wasn't exactly following the posted subject, please don't lock it because of me. I just can't let anyone group the use of vaccination in with Russell's viewpoints on the pyramids. Love you guys   

[normadenardo]

The topic for discussion is the surprising new essay released by the LDS. If we're not going to stick to the topic, I'm going to lock this thread.

See now what you have done seagull?

Sorry Bob    

[Toy Poodles]

Dunno why, but I find the reason is quite ridiculuous though demon might do this thing...

 

I was being facetious. 

[well]

I was being facetious.

But it maybe true!!

Yet, it more looked like a stupid excuse to take any girl he wanted

[seagull]

 

I moved this topic from the JW related News, Info, and Interests forum to the secular In the News & Current Events forum since the topic has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

 

Seems to me he simply shared a CNN article, and now you are the one who has invited such critical discussion.

 

Here's the difference....

 

Jehovah's organization: "Yeah, we've had some interesting brothers with whacked out ideas submitting articles back then. Isn't it nice to have a writing committee overseeing what gets published today."

 

Mormons: "Polygamy is justified between the 1840's and the 1890's because the Lord had commanded that it be practiced during those 50 years for the sake of establishing the Church of Latter-Day Saints. After this brief period, the Lord commanded the cessation of the practice."

 

 

The topic for discussion is the surprising new essay released by the LDS. If we're not going to stick to the topic, I'm going to lock this thread.

See now what you have done seagull?

 

Cor blimey!  I go to work for the day and come back to this!

 

Of course sharing an article invites discussion.  No one starts a thread with the intent that there will only be one post.  In my comment I didn't criticise the OP and I don't think you can read into my post some intent on starting a discussion, critical or otherwise, about the merits of medical treatments or cooking utensils.  I was certainly not implying any support for whatever position the LDS wish to take on Smith's views or suggesting that we somehow are guilty of a deliberate twisting of the scriptures.  I was merely pointing out that regardless of context, were one to start mentioning changes in doctrine in the LDS or other similar organisations such as the SDA, then one is left exposed to comments where people can cherry pick things from our past that really should be left there.

 

Now, there may be perfectly valid medical reasons why one would want to examine particular courses of treatment available now but our brothers do not endorse or restrict any treatment other then where it is at odds with Jehovah's laws.  If you choose not to follow a particular course of treatment then that's fine but any current concerns over vaccinations or the potential impact of aluminium in the body are based on (hopefully) sound medical research.

 

Back to the OP - it's an interesting article in itself and some of the comments above make some very good points of differentiation.  However, were you to try and raise this article with a Mormon, then do you think they would have anything different to say than if they were to try and scoff at us because of the numerology around the pyramids that was in all the early publications?

[seagull]

You could argue some scriptural precedence for multiple wives...

 

 

No, there is not a case to be made about a scriptural precedent for polygamy.  Jehovah allowed such things to happen in the past, but allowing is not the same thing as divinely inspiring or requiring polygamy to be an acceptable practice.  We just had this discussion in the Draw Close to Jehovah book within the last month or so.  

 

Just to be clear that I was not suggesting there is a scriptural case for polygamy when viewing things correctly.  As Shawn says this was something Jehovah tolerated however, as the LDS history and other more recent examples show, it's perfectly possible to take the scriptures and build a case (wrongly) for polygamy.

 

Since there were things that could not be scripturally justified, such as pyramidology, these were rightly abandoned by the F&DS over the years.  It is still happening as exemplified by the recent changes in how we understand types and anti-types.

[TJ]

Very simply, the LDS doctrines like polygamy were taught as direct revelation by God to his prophet (they're still viewed as such, only God has now revealed something different). To question it was on par with questioning Scripture. Smith's history is full of such 'revelations' that worked to his advantage. Before he was murdered, he was even working on 'correcting' the Bible, writing himself into the book of Genesis and so forth. Ellen White of the SDA was less extreme, but founded her authority on the very same principle; she was a prophetess of God!

Russell was among those that rejected all of that as religious nonsense. He claimed only the Bible as authoritative from God. To compare him in any way to Smith or White is like comparing Isaac Newton to the alchemists and magicians of his day; Newton likewise held some views on science that in hindsight are bizarre, but with just a little historical perspective you realize he was extremely reasonable and ahead of his times. Same goes for Russell, et al. Connecting Jehovah's Witnesses with Mormons is what the 'anti-cult' industry tries desperately to do in order to marginalize Witnesses; don't ever let them get away with that tired old garbage.

[Dustparticle]

 I thought one was enough.

[boodles]

The article said that basically they are acknowledging this because it's now easily accessible info. on the internet...

 

 

But in recent years, with information about Smith's multiple marriages only a Google search away, Mormon church leaders felt pressure to answer questions from the faithful, Evans said. Some Mormons had even left the church after discovering its polygamist past.

[Shawnster]

I thought one was enough.

Sometimes more than enough.