DISCUSS COURT CASE HERE JW.org - Jehovah’s Witnesses Mobilize Global Response to Threat of Ban in Russia

[EccentricM]

5 hours ago, Victoria said:

I do hope the Bible won't be in extremist list! In my opinion it will be worse than the ban of the organization.

 

It's not all bad. If it is, then Christendom won't be able to use it either. That will put a large stepping stone to the Beast eating the Harlot. 

 

I can see certain religious books banned for inciting hatred, they will do it with the Koran eventually and then on the Bible by pointing out "similar" verses. 

[Shawnster]

57 minutes ago, EccentricM said:

 

It's not all bad. If it is, then Christendom won't be able to use it either. That will put a large stepping stone to the Beast eating the Harlot. 

 

  That's funny.  

 

It's all in how the law is applied.  I doubt the Russian Orthodox Church will be affected in any way, for example.

[ChocoBro]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

 

  That's funny.  

 

It's all in how the law is applied.  I doubt the Russian Orthodox Church will be affected in any way, for example.

 

I think what he meant is that this sets a precedent. Today the NWT is "extremist" for using the name "Jehovah". Tomorrow, it will be the Quran for saying "kill the idolaters wherever you find them". The day after, it will be any Bible for saying that  Jesus came to bring a sword.

[juliansan]

44 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

 

I think what he meant is that this sets a precedent. Today the NWT is "extremist" for using the name "Jehovah". Tomorrow, it will be the Quran for saying "kill the idolaters wherever you find them". The day after, it will be any Bible for saying that  Jesus came to bring a sword.

Funfact: The russian orthodox bible "Синодальныи перевод" also features the Name Jehovah in the old testament. It was printed and published by the organisation and used in meetings before we recieved the NWT in 2007.

[Skye]

(Humming softly to myself) .....

 

Oh, whatever your enemies tried, they could not silence you.

Your loyal ones who loved your Word, kept their faith, integrity too.

And when they tried to ban their Bibles, they were prepared to give their lives.

For so strong was their faith and the witness they gave, not one of your words was erased.

 

(CHORUS)

And so your Word endures forever...........

[Victoria]

https://www.jw-russia.org/pages/17120715-272.html

[Victoria]

I am afraid the government will get Bethel and all kingdom halls. No law can stop it. They just do what they want.

[Sheep]

3 hours ago, Victoria said:

I am afraid the government will get Bethel and all kingdom halls. No law can stop it. They just do what they want.

 

I'm afraid you're right, Victoria...

 

https://jw-russia.org/news/17120718-274.html

 

Quote

Sestroretsk District Court legalized the seizure of foreign property

 

December 7, 2017 after a 4-hour trial, the court announced the decision to recognize the 17-year-old deal as invalid. If this decision remains in force, it may entail the circulation in the state's income of a large real estate object in the village of Solnechnoe (St. Petersburg). This decision casts a shadow over the inviolability of property rights in the Russian Federation, where no organization, even on an international scale, can be calm for its transactions, even if they are officially registered by authorized bodies.

 

All the seized property of Jehovah's Witnesses is dedicated to Jehovah God, therefore they believe that it belongs to God and is taken away from him. As the Bible calls, Jehovah's Witnesses put all their worries on God (1 Peter 5: 7).

 

[Sheep]

Not to worry though.

 

It has been noted by some in this topic that the Russian court cases have all been pre-decided long before anyone ever gets into the courtroom. Their scenes of a courtroom with a judge and lawyers are just for show, to give a semblance of justice where there in none.

 

However, Russia fails to see that Jehovah is watching them, taking note of what they are doing. When it comes their time to appear before the Highest Court in the Universe, the Great Judge will already have enough evidence to convict them. To them, it will look like their conviction was pre-decided, and even that there was no trial or hearing. But in reality, Jehovah was watching them all along. He knows more about the case than they do, and so is able to make a perfect judgment. To that, there will be no appeal.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Sheep

[Omoyeme]

For those who are interested, here is the full text report from the court: https://jw-russia.org/pages/17120715-272.html

 

Quote

Report: A hearing in Sestroretsk about the seizure of the complex of real estate
December 7, 2017 in the Sestroretsk District Court of St. Petersburg, hearings begin on the suit for the confiscation of a large complex of real estate from a foreign organization "Watchtower Society, Bibles and Treatises of Pennsylvania."

 

14:00    In the courtroom there are about 30 people, including representatives of foreign embassies and the press.

 

14:10
A hearing begins under the chairmanship of Judge Bogdanova. The plaintiff's side is represented by assistant prosecutors Morozov and Petrov. Representatives of the Watchtower Society are lawyers Viktor Shipilov and Arthur Leontiev. In addition, Richard Devine, vice president of the Watchtower Society, participates in the process, having the right to act without a power of attorney.

 

14:25
Attorney Shipilov reads the application for entry into the case from Finnish citizen Aulis Berdahl who is registered and lives in one of the buildings for which the prosecutor's claim is aimed at confiscation. Berdahl believes that this claim will affect his rights. The court appoints a 10-minute technical break, which is requested by representatives of the prosecutor's office. They intend to check the availability of his registration at the specified address in the village of Solnechnoe.

 

14:40
The hearing continues. The court shall announce the received certificate confirming the registration of Berdahl at the indicated address. However, he refuses to involve him in the case as a third person.

 

14:45
The court denies the motion to videotape during the trial. The essence of the matter is stated. Lawyers begin to expound their arguments.

 

14:55
Attorney Leontyev draws attention to the fact that the transactions of 2000 and 2010 for the transfer of property into the property of the "Watch Tower Society" were legal, it was executed by the parties. The deal could not be feigned. For example, this transaction entailed the appearance of a duty to pay taxes, and the "Watch Tower Society" in good faith, these taxes paid. With the owner, the Watchtower Society, the redevelopment of buildings, the unification of land plots, the dismantling of the dilapidated structure was officially agreed upon.

 

3pm 
Richard Devine, vice president of the Watchtower Society, is giving explanations. He says that his organization has existed continuously since 1884, that is, more than 100 years. According to its charter, this organization represents the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses all over the world. He explains that property transactions, similar to those that are considered in this process, are common for the activities of this organization. The property is dedicated to spiritual purposes, namely the confession of the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. In the buildings located in the village of Solnechny, volunteers lived - and worked - religious ministers. The seizure of property will violate the fundamental rights to freedom of religion. After the liquidation of the Jehovah's Witnesses Center in Russia, a lawsuit was filed with the ECHR, and on December 1, 2017, the European Court found this complaint admissible.

 

15:10
 His explanation begins to give a lawyer Shipilov.

 

15:15
Shipilov draws attention to the fact that the Watchtower Society was not allowed to participate in the hearings in the Supreme Court of Russia, despite the petition. The Supreme Court denied the Watchtower Society the involvement in the case, arguing that the interests of this organization were not affected. Does this prosecution claim that the state has changed its mind?

 

15:20
Shipilov lists typical signs that indicate the imaginary nature of the transaction, and compares it with transactions for the transfer of property to the Watchtower Society. Everything indicates that this transaction was genuine. Shipilov points out that the prosecutor's office did not bring a single point of the deal that would not have been executed and would have indicated its imaginary nature.

 

15:25
The Watchtower Society provided this property to the Management Center for free use, and had the legal right to do so. The lawyer recalls that the Civil Code in the very first lines proclaims the freedom to dispose of property in its ownership.

 

3:30 pm
Attorney Shipilov is puzzled, what kind of statutory purposes is the transfer of property contrary to? Why does the Watchtower Society have property in Russia? For example, the law says that a foreign organization can open a representative office in Russia only if it owns property in that country. Thus, the possession of this property theoretically opened for the "Society" the right to open its representation for the implementation of statutory goals - religious, educational, charitable activities.

 

15:40
After a short break of the explanation, the lawyer Shipilov continues to give. He recalls that the state denied the Management Center some insignificant actions with real estate due to the fact that the Management Center is not its owner. This once again proves that the state has been considering the deal as genuine all these years.

 

15:45
Shipilov reminds that privileges for payment of property and land tax are granted only to Russian religious organizations. The transfer of property to a foreign "Watch Tower Society" entailed the appearance of a duty to pay taxes. Shipilov said that the lawyer was able to recover information about the payment of taxes from 2005 to 2017. Only in 2005, about 200,000 US dollars of property tax was transferred to the Russian treasury. Subsequently, the tax base only increased, there was a land tax. The fact that the Watchtower Society paid these taxes leaves no doubt about the authenticity of the transaction.

 

15:50
Shipilov analyzes the Charter of the Management Center that ceased to exist, convincingly proving that the center had the right to transfer property to the Watchtower Society. Having registered this charter in the Ministry of Justice of Russia, the state recognized it as legitimate.

 

15:55
Shipilov talks about the practice of giving and generosity to Jehovah's Witnesses. The lawyer cites the texts of the Bible underlying this practice, indicating that the donations are sacred religious activities. "In fact, the prosecutor accuses Jehovah's Witnesses of deceiving God himself," Shipilov concludes.

 

4pm
Shipilov cites evidence that the building was erected at the expense of foreign religious organizations at the request of the Watchtower Society. Therefore, it is not illogical to give these buildings to the Watchtower Society. Transactions were repeatedly checked by state bodies. The prosecutor's office, including the prosecutor's office of Kurortny district of St. Petersburg, repeatedly conducted inspections of the Administrative Center. For example, in 2007, the Management Center was specifically checked for the legality of the acquisition of this complex and its ownership by the Watchtower Society. The prosecutor's office did not reveal any violations.

 

16:20
After a short technical break, the meeting continues. The right to provide an explanation passes to the representative of the Rosreestr Administration. The representative of the claim is supported, the remaining issues are left to the discretion of the court.

 

16:25
Lawyer Leontiev begins to file a petition to stop the proceedings in connection with the fact that the statute of limitations is missed. Leontiev recalls that the first transaction was made in 2000. According to the legislation of that time, the limitation period for this category of cases was 10 years, but the legislative act of July 26, 2005, the limitation period was reduced to 3 years, therefore, the limitation period expired on the same day.

 

4:30 pm
The second deal to transfer the remaining property to the ownership of the "Watch Tower Society" was committed in 2010, which means that the limitation period expired on October 23, 2013. In this regard, Leontiev asked to stop the proceedings on the case after the expiration of the statute of limitations.

 

16:35
The prosecutor's office objects to the satisfaction of this petition. A representative of the prosecutor's office believes that the statute of limitations begins to flow from the moment the transaction begins. The prosecutor's office continues to assert that the deal was not being executed.

 

16:40  The court determines to attach the petition to the case.

 

16:41
The court proceeds to review the case materials. A number of different documents indicate that the Watchtower Society exercised rights and obligations related to the economic management of property in the village of Solnechnoye.

 

5pm

Attorney Shipilov, referring to the rule of law, petitions to stop the proceedings in connection with the liquidation of the party to the transaction (the Management Center). The court refuses to grant this petition.

 

17:05    The court turns to the stage of judicial debate.

 

17:06
The representative of the prosecutor's office, speaking in the debate, said that the deal to transfer the property to the ownership of the "Watch Tower Society" was alleged. "The management center both used the property and used it," says the assistant prosecutor. In addition, the Management Center carried the burden of maintaining property, for example, paying for electricity, water and gas.

 

17:10
The representative of the Federal Property Management Agency, Jan Shitt, speaking in the debate, said that the transfer of property as a gift to a foreign "Watch Tower Society" contradicted the statute of the Management Center, since the Management Center was created in the interests of Russian citizens, and not foreign citizens. In this regard, the representative believes that the property should be returned to the Russian Federation.

 

17:18
Speeches in the debate of lawyer Leontief. Among other things,he draws attention to the fact that the state paid taxes, in total more than 100 million rubles. When the state received this money, it suited everyone. And now the state wants to declare all this null and void. And then how to be with these taxes? A situation is created when a state can take anything from anyone. And such a situation contradicts the interests of the Russian Federation.

17:22    Speeches in the debate lawyer Shipilov. From the point of view of logic, it can not be that 17 years was all right, and then suddenly raised questions. Otherwise, all transactions in the Russian Federation can not be considered unprotected. It is common for the Society to have real estate in various countries - in Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg - and to provide for free use to believers.

 

17:27    The Representative of Rosreestr does not exercise his right to participate in the debate.

 

17:28    The final remarks are made by the representative of the Federal Property Management Agency, Jan Shitt. He states that the funds paid in the budget in the form of taxes are negligible compared to the value of the donated object.

 

17:29    Representative Shipilov recalls that the funds paid to the budget of Russia are not so small, since they constitute a quarter of the cadastral value of the facility.

 

17:33    Vice President of the Watchtower Society Richard Devine supports the theses of lawyers and asks the court to allow them to peacefully carry out their activities.

 

17:35    The court is removed to the advisory room. The decision will be announced after 18:00.

 

18:10    The court begins to announce the decision. The claims of the prosecutor's office are satisfied. The decision can be appealed in a 30-day period.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Omoyeme

[Omoyeme]

Follow-up:  The Sestroretsk District Court Legalized the Seizure of Foreign Property https://jw-russia.org/news/17120718-274.html

 

Quote

December 7, 2017 after a 4-hour trial, the court announced the decision to recognize the 17-year-old deal as invalid. If this decision remains in force, it may entail the circulation in the state's income of a large real estate object in the village of Solnechnoe (St. Petersburg). This decision casts a shadow over the inviolability of property rights in the Russian Federation, where no organization, even on an international scale, can be calm for its transactions, even if they are officially registered by authorized bodies.

 

All the seized property of Jehovah's Witnesses is dedicated to Jehovah God, therefore they believe that it belongs to God and is taken away from him. As the Bible calls, Jehovah's Witnesses put all their worries on God (1 Peter 5: 7).

 

[yedidia]

58 minutes ago, Omoyeme said:

it may entail the circulation in the state's income of a large real estate object

 

and you must say: “I shall go up against the land of open rural country. I shall come in upon those having no disturbance, dwelling in security, all of them dwelling without wall, and they do not have even bar and doors.” ¹² It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating wealth and property, [those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth. (Ezekiel 38:11, 12)

 

 

[jwhess]

In all of these situations we keep a balanced view.  We pray for (and assist where we can) our brothers in trouble but we petition Jehovah on behalf of the persecutors as well.

 

*** w05 12/15 p. 23 Whom Do You Obey—God or Men? ***

¹⁷ Our enemies are in a very precarious position. They are fighting against God. Thus, in harmony with Jesus’ command, rather than fear them, we pray for those persecuting us. (Matthew 5:44) We pray that if any are opposing God out of ignorance, as Saul of Tarsus was, Jehovah will graciously open their eyes to the truth. (2 Corinthians 4:4) …Paul …kept reminding fellow believers “to be in subjection and be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, to be ready for every good work, to speak injuriously of no one [no, not even of their most ardent persecutors], not to be belligerent, to be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men.” (Titus 3:1, 2) Jehovah’s Witnesses in France and elsewhere endeavor to take this counsel to heart.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

I am of the unusual opinion that if you are going to ban Jehovah's Witness activity is Russia, then it is a good thing, not a bad thing, to also ban the New World Translation and seize the branch headquarters building. Each drags in people who might not otherwise care.

 

Human rights people protest when Witness activity is banned, but it is partly offset by: 'well, they ARE a pain and they DO call unannounced at inconvenient times.

 

But when you ban the Bible - even ringleader Dvorkin thought that was going too far. It plainly is a Bible; he doesn't like it, but it plainly is one. His country looks like a nation of goons. He is as if to say: 'we cut them off from U.S. organizational and monitory support. That's enough. Break both their legs and they will die! You don't ban the Bible as well, which only make us look like a country where Fred Flintstone is chief.

 

I say ban it for exactly that reason.

 

The academic community couldn't believe it. The Russian expert witness to the Court, an ex-JW, has an education that "doesn't correspond to anything" (mathematics degree) and she just "copies any sort of nonsense off the internet." She had the court harrumphing that it doesn't say 'Bible' on the cover, but 'Sacred Scriptures,' also that it said Hebrew and Greek Scriptures instead of Old and New Testament. She had them perturbed over its use of the name Jehovah, and then it was pointed out the Russian Orthodox version also uses the name.

 

They got concerned that the Jehovah's Witness Bible doesn't support the Trinity and our people showed them that the Russian Orthodox translation also doesn't support it. The Court is plodding about in matters of which it is completely ignorant, Dvorkin fumed, and it shows painfully.

 

Good. Let the record reflect that.

 

The decision regarding the branch headquarters draws in the potentially much more influential business community. Said the Witness representative:

 

"Of course, we will appeal this decision. It is based on nothing, except the desire of the prosecutor's office to simply seize the property. We did not hear a single legal argument. This is expropriation. Russia encourages foreign business to invest in the country, but what investments can be made if the property is not protected and can be seized at any time?"

 

I say it is a good thing for them to seize the building. It cannot serve its intended function anyway. Let it serve its new purpose of calling attention to oppression. One Russian news source opined they will ultimately give it back accompanied by huge financial damage penalties. Witnesses will take the matter to the ECHR and also, since the Watchtower Society is American-based, "the American one," whatever that means.

 

If you are going to go unjust, do it big time and make sure everyone knows. The Governing Body saw to it that the initial trial was videotaped in the largest venue possible. That video is widely available. At one point the Russian judge asked the Ministry of Justice whether it had prepared for the trial, so unsupported was their case. In the end, he did what he knew he had to do if he wanted to keep his job, but his interaction with them clearly exposed a sham system, which was repeated at the appeal, repeated again at the trial over the Bible, and again at the hearing to confiscate the branch headquarters.

 

And it was repeated in the case in the imprisonment without trial of Dennis Christensen, the first Witness jailed post-ban, and a Danish citizen. The Ministry of Justice insists he is a dangerous criminal. His last religious act was to preside over a typical Bible study at the Kingdom Hall. His last non-religious act was to build a playground (he is a carpenter) for the children. His second-to-last non-religious act was to take part in a public park cleanup for which the congregation received a certificate of appreciation from the town officials.

 

A lot of people don't like Jehovah's Witnesses - they are a hot-button topic in several ways. But they do know that rule by law and even common sense is a good thing, not a bad thing and when they see it so arbitrarily violated, they get more worked up than they would over Witnesses themselves. 

[minister159]

 

I suppose we could put this under the heading, "Any Publicity Is Good Publicity," which is the gist of what Paul said while under house arrest in Rome:

 

"True, some are preaching the Christ through envy and rivalry, but others also through goodwill. The latter are publicizing the Christ out of love, for they know I am set here for the defense of the good news; but the former do it out of contentiousness, not with a pure motive, for they are supposing to stir up tribulation [for me] in my [prison] bonds. What then? [Nothing,] except that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being publicized, and in this I rejoice." --- Phil. 1:15-18

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by minister159

[Miss Bea]

As I listened to the public talk This morning, the account of the hand writing on the wall, and what happened that night. I think it would be, well, pretty awesome, for some in public office who have shown hatred for Jehovah’s people to see that hand, and a pertinent message, right before their demise!

[skipdaflip]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before.

 

https://www.rt.com/politics/410418-orthodox-patriarch-warns-parish-end/

[Victoria]

I watched Patriarch Kirill saying the Devil rules the world. He realised it while reading the Bible, about Jesus' temptation. Maybe he is stydying with JWs at nights?

 

If the NWT is banned I am afraid we will have to burnt all its copies. I can't imagine that!

[Ahuvah]

banning the NWT is like poking Jehovah's eyeball ... even moreso - the satellite publications like WT and Awake and others - not a good move either, but the scriptures? Silly move.

[jwhess]

When William Tyndale was being executed, it is reported that he prayed to God "to let the eyes of the King of England be opened" (as to the printing of the Bible in English).  And less than 50 years later the King did decree the publication.  We can pray for a good and proper outcome as well.  We just hope it doesn't take 50 years.

[Omoyeme]

From jw-russia.org: https://jw-russia.org/news/17121123-275.html

 

Quote

The European Court will, as a matter of priority, review the decision to ban Jehovah's Witnesses organizations in Russia

11 December 2017

 

On December 1, 2017, the European Court of Human Rights found the complaint of Jehovah's Witnesses acceptable, decided to consider it as a matter of priority and ordered the Russian Federation to submit its explanations by March 23, 2018. The Russian Federation is invited to indicate its position with regard to concluding a settlement agreement in this case and submit any proposals.

 

The complaint is entitled "The Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and Kalin against the Russian Federation" (No. 1018817). She was sent to the European Court in connection with the decision of the Supreme Court of Russia of April 20, 2017 to liquidate all 396 organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and ban their activities on the grounds provided for by anti-extremist legislation.

 

Representatives of the Russian state will be required to explain in writing to the international court whether there has been a violation of Article 11 of the European Convention guaranteeing the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association with others in connection with this decision of the court. Was there a violation of Article 9 guaranteeing the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom to change one's religion or beliefs and freedom to practice one's religion or beliefs individually or in community with others, publicly or privately, in worship, teaching, rituals? Was there a violation of article 14, which prohibits discrimination and guarantees equal rights for all, regardless of their religious beliefs or other characteristics? A separate issue was raised,

 

It is common knowledge that the decision to liquidate and ban all organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia entailed numerous violations of the rights of believers, both on the part of officials and on the part of the aggressively-minded part of society. With regard to individual believers, operative-search activities are conducted, criminal cases are initiated. Jehovah's Witnesses insist on the illegality of the decision passed against them.

 

[Omoyeme]

jw-russia.org: https://jw-russia.org/news/17121418-276.html

 

Quote

Liturgical building that served for thousands of St. Petersburg believers was seized and sealed

14 December 2017

 

On December 14, 2017, about 40 employees of various departments, including the Ministry of Emergency Situations, seized and later sealed a huge liturgical building near the Pionerskaya metro station in St. Petersburg. Details are being clarified.

 

This building with a sign "Congress Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses" was inaugurated in September 1999 on Kolomyazhsky Avenue, 21. One of the profile magazines published a brief architectural and design review of the building, as well as an interview with its architect Helenios Osmo Ilmari.

 

The archive video (April 11, 2017) captures how the believers gather for the last service in this building.

 

It was truly Jehovah's spirit that allowed the brothers and sisters to meet there back in April possibly for the last time!  And yet the video is amazing (and sad) at the same time. 

Russia's tactics...how treacherous!

 

[Victoria]

Another court hearing about NWT Bible is on. 

[Sheep]

https://jw-russia.org/pages/17120610-270.html#1220

 

[Tbs77]

19 December 2017
RUSSIA: PROPERTY SELL-OFFS, ALTERNATIVE SERVICE DENIALS FOLLOW JEHOVAH'S WITNESS BAN
http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2344

Following the Supreme Court ban on all Jehovah's Witness activity - in
force since July - Regional Justice Ministry branches are preparing to sell
off their confiscated property. Military call-up offices have denied
several army conscripts the option of alternative civilian service.
Jehovah's Witnesses experience increased law enforcement harassment, plus
vandalism and violence.

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