Quantum Mechanics: Need Some Help Understanding "SPIN"

[Beggar for the Spirit]

I am trying to understand how sub-atomic particles like a proton have "spin"?

I have come to understand that this term "spin" is just an analogy for scientists as the proton doesn't literally spin like a ball or a planet.  Spin apparently means that it is just the intrinsic property of the particle which makes it behave as tiny magnets even when they are at rest.

 

So in classical physics, if we take an electrically charged object and spin it, we get a magnetic field. But apparently a proton or electron doesn't need to physically spin to create magnetism, physicists say that this is "intrinsic" in the particle, like it's mass.  

But this raises for me several questions and I was hoping that some of our excellent scientific minds here on JWtalk could help me, please.

 

 

1)  What does it mean that the "spin" or angular momentum is "intrinsic"?

In other words, how does a particle just automatically behave as a magnet even though it is as rest?

I understand the word intrinsic, but I don't understand how a particle just naturally would have magnetism at rest

 

2) This statement below by this professor of physics just amazed me, I had never heard this before.

So is this professor saying and is he correct that the "spin" of a body like the Earth is made up of the total sum of every single spin of every single elementary particle that exists within the Earth?  If so that is mind blowing! 

 

Victor J. Stenger, professor of physics at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, offers another, more technical perspective:

"Spin is the total angular momentum, or intrinsic angular momentum, of a body. The spins of elementary particles are analogous to the spins of macroscopic bodies. In fact, the spin of a planet is the sum of the spins and the orbital angular momenta of all its elementary particles. So are the spins of other composite objects such as atoms, atomic nuclei and protons (which are made of quarks).

 

So any help, explanations, thoughts that anyone could share on any of this would be great, thanks! 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Beggar for the Spirit

[Old]

I can't explain it. I do find it interesting that spin is intrinsic to everything from a partical to a universe. I'm sure it reveals something about Jehovah, his physical laws being intrinsic to all material creation.

I am a believer, do I have to know why? 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Old

[jwhess]

We can say that the "spin" is not physically producing the magnetism because the particle is too small (mass).  To produce the observed reaction in a magnetic field, the amount of magnetism produced by rapidly rotating the particle would require rotational speeds in excess of the "speed of light".  That is why the observed "spin" phenomena is labeled intrinsic.  It is part of the objects nature and not produced by actions of the object.  These observed forces "act" like spin or angular momentum but are not caused by the rotating abilities of the particle, they just are.  Most of the study of sub-atomic physics is mathematics based.  I clipped a small part out of a web report on this subject.

[Dages]

That's something I can't wait to study in the new world

[walkr2]

I can!

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[Chijwas]

From what understand it, you stay in one spot and turn clockwise or counterclockwise clockwise.

 

turn or cause to turn or whirl around quickly.

 

Lol

 

 

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[Old]

40 minutes ago, Chijwas said:

From what understand it, you stay in one spot and turn clockwise or counterclockwise clockwise.

 

turn or cause to turn or whirl around quickly.

 

Lol

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Spin, something never seen on the O'Riley show!

[Chijwas]

Again, lol


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[Wm-Scott]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-exactly-is-the-spin/

 

The above link discusses;

"What exactly is the 'spin' of subatomic particles such as electrons and protons? Does it have any physical significance, analogous to the spin of a planet?"

 

To simplify, subatomic particles act as if they were spinning magnets when they encounter a magnetic field, but since they are point particles and have no size, they can't really spin. Their spin is an intrinsic or fixed property since the spin is fixed and can't slow down or speed up. If they really were little spinning balls, their spin rate could be changed and when they struck another particle, the spin would effect the bounce or direction they fly off in. The reason terms like "spin" are used is because we really don't know what we are talking about, and we use analogies as a rough approximation. It is like primitive people looking into the sky and seeing a jet flying overhead, they call it a "bird". They have no real idea what it is, what it is made of or how it works, but they can write big technical books about their theories on "birds".  Modern science is still at this stage since we don'the know so many fundamental things about the universe like dark matter or dark energy. They are call dark because we are completely in the dark about what they are.

 

Really had to look this one up, it has been so long since I read up on this stuff and it is pretty confusing as you are finding out, when we really don'the understand it. From what I can tell, though they run a good game, the scientists in this field are nearly as confused we are.

[Beggar for the Spirit]

I just tried to study this subject again, I even got some AI assistance to help me, but even the AI could not explain what this “spin” or “hidden intrinsic quality” within each particle is! The AI can only use descriptive terms or labels that scientists use such as “spin” or “angular momentum”.

 

I find it very interesting that scientists have been able to figure out how to observe sub-atomic particles that we cannot see with our own eyes and they can even somehow observe a distinguishing feature or “hidden intrinsic quality” of a particle YET they cannot tell us what this “hidden intrinsic quality” is?

• So scientists just call it a “spin” but particles like electrons don’t actually spin physically.
• Or if you ask a scientist to not use the term “spin”,  he/she may tell you that they are measuring the “angular momentum” of the particle, YET there is no real angular momentum in any particle as this term/description is only a physics term describing what happens in the physical world, not in the quantum world.
• Or as the AI stated, “When scientists talk about "measuring spin," they are essentially referring to a mathematical property that helps us describe how particles behave in certain experimental contexts. While they use terms like "up" and "down" to discuss spin states, it's important to note that these are mathematical representations of quantum behavior, not literal orientations in physical space.”
• But the best description I have found so far is this, even though, again, this does not really explain what the hidden intrinsic quality is: “You can think of spin as a kind of quantum "flavor" that particles have. This flavor affects how particles interact with each other, how they respond to magnetic fields, and even how they contribute to the formation of atoms and matter. Spin is a bit like a particle's identity tag. It helps define what a particle is and how it can act in various situations”

 

While scientists still do not have an understanding of what precisely this “flavor” or “spin” is, here may be a spiritual illustration that can be gained from this fascinating subject:

Quote

When scientists observe and measure a particle’s “spin” or “flavor”, this enables scientists to predict how particles will behave in various situations.

 

(Spiritual Illustration)

Similarly, although Jehovah has given us the precious gift of free will and does not pre-determine our life course, He has the incredible ability to peer deeply inside each person to determine their “hidden motives” and their “hidden flavors” as to what they truly like or dislike, things that not even their closest loved ones will know about them!

 

When scientists are able to determine an electron’s spin or “flavor”, this gives them special insight into the electron which helps predict it’s future behavior under different conditions! Similarly, because Jehovah can examine with perfect accuracy every single motive or “flavor” or tendency within a person, this also results in Him having the amazing capability of anticipating with 100% accuracy every person’s future actions! 😯 

 

So if we are impressed with modern scientists who can find and observe a hidden intrinsic quality within sub-atomic particles and therefore they

can anticipate a particle’s future behavior, then how much more so are we in AWE of Jehovah who has the unmatchable ability to examine each and every motive, preference, tendency, and “flavor” deep inside of us. YET Jehovah can do so even though our motives and tendencies and “flavors” have no intrinsic mathematical qualities so that they can be measured or calculated! How do you measure something that isn’t measurable? How do you calculate something that has no numbers?

 

YET amazingly Jehovah can measure the immeasurable!

And the Grand Mathematician can calculate that which has no numerical value or qualitative attributes!

That is AWE-INSPIRING ⭐️ 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Beggar for the Spirit

[Witness1970]

On 4/19/2017 at 6:17 PM, jwhess said:

We can say that the "spin" is not physically producing the magnetism because the particle is too small (mass).  To produce the observed reaction in a magnetic field, the amount of magnetism produced by rapidly rotating the particle would require rotational speeds in excess of the "speed of light".  That is why the observed "spin" phenomena is labeled intrinsic.  It is part of the objects nature and not produced by actions of the object.  These observed forces "act" like spin or angular momentum but are not caused by the rotating abilities of the particle, they just are.  Most of the study of sub-atomic physics is mathematics based.  I clipped a small part out of a web report on this subject.

I took Calculus as a teenager.  But that was over 50 years ago.  I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Michał]

Me neither… I think i got Ds on calculus 

[jayrtom]

Hi Neil

 

Don't scratch your head to much into this subject because there is no one that really understands what is spin. But there is nothing special related to it. It's the same as mass charge colour, etc. All fundamental properties of fundamental particles. 
That is, those properties are intrinsic of the particles in the sense that they don't have any outer reason to be what they are. For example, a macroscopic objects mass is related to the amount of particles it has, but at some point we reach a fundamental level (electrons, proton, quarks,,,) that is, fundamental particles, that don't have anything "inside", or better, don't have an inside and outside part, and are more like an infinitesimal size point, but still have mass. We call it an intrinsic property of the particle without understanding what it is or why it has it... The same goes for all the other intrinsic properties

 

The problem with understanding spin is because the way it was called, that automatically makes one think of a tiny ball rotating and that's why the confusion arises (the colour property of a quark also doesn't have anything to do to the way we perceive colour… but there you have it)

 

What matters, is what those intrinsic properties of the fundamental particles, cause to the way they react to the surrounding world and that’s also how we can perceive their existence. But no one can go beyond what the observations tells us about how the particle behaves (and not why it does)

There were scientists that imagined that this fundamental particles weren’t really that fundamental, but that they had inside hidden variables that could explain why they had those intrinsic properties. One of those was Einstein who never accepted the weirdness of QM. However, John Bell devised a way to detect if really was possible that those hidden variables could exist. Turns out they can't! The world really is that weird and that is abundantly proven experimentally

 

Other ways of trying to explain those properties relate to the string theory. In that Theory each particle in reality is a tiny string that vibrates in a multidimensional space (with the majority of dimensions so tiny encapsulated in each other that renders them impossible to detect). The way each string vibrates (frequency, etc) is what gives the particles the properties they have.
However, this theory is becoming less and less likely to be true and less and less physicists are believing in it

In my opinion the weirdness of QM is what gives Jehovah, both the ability to know the future and the ability to not know it, when he sees fit. If the word was as classical as Einstein thought, with all the things happening for a specific reason and all the properties existing because of other underlying variables, the world would be inevitably deterministic, with Free Will basically just an illusion. As it is, we have real free will and the future is completely unwritten (unless Jehovah peeks into it and it then freezes it into a specific path of events)

[Dark King]

The atomic theory is just the best guess the human race can come up with in this old system of things I'm looking forward to when Jehovah is teaching us facts and we're only working with facts from Jehovah rather than dealing with theories.

[New World Explorer]

The "spin' we are discussing here is this (just for clarity) 

 

Angular momentum is defined as: The property of any rotating object given by moment of inertia times angular velocity.

It is the property of a rotating body given by the product of the moment of inertia and the angular velocity of the rotating object.

 

I hope the definition brings some clarity? LOL 

[Beggar for the Spirit]

1 hour ago, New World Explorer said:

The "spin' we are discussing here is this (just for clarity) 

 

Angular momentum is defined as: The property of any rotating object given by moment of inertia times angular velocity.

It is the property of a rotating body given by the product of the moment of inertia and the angular velocity of the rotating object.

 

I hope the definition brings some clarity? LOL 

 

Hi Greg, 

Thanks for your post.

In classical physics/science, this definition your provided is very helpful. However, as I wrote in the OP,

“I have come to understand that this term "spin" is just an analogy for scientists as the proton doesn't literally spin like a ball or a planet.  Spin apparently means that it is just the intrinsic property of the particle which makes it behave as tiny magnets even when they are at rest. So in classical physics, if we take an electrically charged object and spin it, we get a magnetic field. But apparently a proton or electron doesn't need to physically spin to create magnetism, physicists say that this is "intrinsic" in the particle, like it's mass.”  

 

So for me this is so very interesting, actually amazing to me that what is required in “normal” physics for anything to have angular momentum or magnetism  is JUST AN INTRINSIC PROPERTY inside A SUBATOMIC PARTICLE! 😯 

 

So while outside forces and circumstances cause something to be “magnetized” in normal life/physics, it is cool how Jehovah designed these invisible particles with what might be called “self-magnetism”, not needing any outside force to make it magnetized! To illustrate, it is like how a sailboat must have an outside force, a wind, to make it go forward on the ocean. But what if someone could design a sailboat that needed no sails, no wind, but was designed with an INTRINSIC PROPERTY that makes it sail fast on its own! Wow 😯

That’s what Jehovah did with these marvelous particles!