Texas backs school that expelled girl over pledge of allegiance

[trottigy]

https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-45656149?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-us-canada-45656149

 

 

It was only a matter of time before this:

 

The state of Texas is backing a school that expelled a black student after she refused to stand for the flag during the US Pledge of Allegiance.

 

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton intervened on Tuesday to defend the Houston-area school district in its lawsuit with the student, India Landry.

 

Ms Landry, 18, filed a lawsuit after she was expelled last year from Windfern High School.

The case comes amid political tensions over respect for the American flag.

 

"School children cannot unilaterally refuse to participate in the pledge," Mr Paxton - the state's most senior law enforcement officer - said in a news release.

 

[minister159]

So, she didn't stand for political reasons, not religious reasons. It looks like this adds a new wrinkle to the issue of freedom of speech, but not freedom of religion, and hopefully won't be misconstrued as such by teachers and administrators.

[cricket246]

I guess as long as a kid in Texas has a letter from a parent stating they won't stand they are allowed to sit, but what about youths who are trying to serve Jehovah and their parents are worldly or left the truth and might not give them that permission?

[trottigy]

This is a good reminder of what the supreme Court stated: 

Quote

U.S. Supreme Court

West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

No. 591

Argued March 11, 1943

Decided June 14, 1943

319 U.S. 624

 

Syllabus

1. State action against which the Fourteenth Amendment protects includes action by a state board of education. P. 319 U. S. 637.

 

2. The action of a State in making it compulsory for children in the public schools to salute the flag and pledge allegiance -- by extending the right arm, palm upward, and declaring, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands; one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" -- violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments. P. 319 U. S. 642.

So held as applied to children who were expelled for refusal to comply, and whose absence thereby became "unlawful," subjecting them and their parents or guardians to punishment.

 

3. That those who refused compliance did so on religious grounds does not control the decision of this question, and it is unnecessary to inquire into the sincerity of their views. P. 319 U. S. 634.

 

4. Under the Federal Constitution, compulsion as here employed is not a permissible means of achieving "national unity." P. 319 U. S. 640.

Page 319 U. S. 625

 

 

 

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/319/624/

 

This was more about SAYING the pkedge - for any reason, not just religious. It did not necessarily address standing. 

[Cushi]

I don’t see why the principal can’t understand the girls position. She should have asked him if he would want to pledge allegiance to the flag if this were an Afrocentric country and his racial group was being treated unfairly.  I honestly don’t see why any black person would want to pledge allegiance to the flag when they are not even treated fairly in their own country. I’m not trying to take sides but I really don’t understand why some people don’t understand why a person who makes up a group of people who is often treated unfairly would not want to pledge allegiance to the flag... just saying.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Brother Jack

[Cushi]

Accidentally quoted myself...

Edited September 28, 2018 by Brother Jack

[tekmantwo]

1 hour ago, Brother Jack said:

Accidentally quoted myself...

Yeah,  I do that too; sometimes I need an expert opinion. ....

[tekmantwo]

1 hour ago, Brother Jack said:

I don’t see why the principal can’t understand the girls position. She should have asked him if he would want to pledge allegiance to the flag if this were an Afrocentric country and his racial group was being treated unfairly.  I honestly don’t see why any black person would want to pledge allegiance to the flag when they are not even treated fairly in their own country. I’m not trying to take sides but I really don’t understand why some people don’t understand why a person who makes up a group of people who is often treated unfairly would not want to pledge allegiance to the flag... just saying.

(I'm not sure exactly which part of your post here that I want to quote so I just took it all)

This makes me wonder about citizenship and immigration. 

I saw a thing on a local news channel a few days ago,  it showed all these smiling faces, newly minted U.S. citizens, pledging their allegiance to a multi colored rag on a stick.

 

What do our Brothers and Sisters do, if in that situation?

Not going to pledge, so, how do they become citizens,  if that is what they want?

What about staying here (US) as a refugee? Or on a work permit? (Is that even the right term?)

 

How about a man that crossed into this country illegally, has a good job, some family, gets the Truth,  what does he do?

 

That's kind of a rock and a hard place deal, isn't it? 

 

Gotta do the right thing, can he do anything to stay here without mumbling words to a rag onna stick?

[Shawnster]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:33 PM, trottigy said:

This is a good reminder of what the supreme Court stated: 

 

 

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/319/624/

 

This was more about SAYING the pkedge - for any reason, not just religious. It did not necessarily address standing. 

Same principle.  Standing in this case can be considered speech.   A mute person, for example, still has freedom of speech. 

 

Yeah, Texas has no legal basis to stand on. 

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/Speech.aspx

Quote

The question, then, was bound to be raised in law: what is speech?

 

In State v Immelt, Justice Grosse of the Washington Court of Appeals wrote:

"Although the First Amendment protects only speech, conduct may be sufficiently imbued with elements of communication to fall within the ambit of the First Amendment.

"Courts, however, have rejected the view that any conduct can be labeled speech whenever the actor intends to express an idea. For such conduct to be considered protected speech the actor must have the intent to convey a particularized message in circumstances where it is likely that the message would be understood.

"To determine whether conduct is speech, one must look at the conduct that actually occurred and the context in which it occurred.

"Conduct is expressive when the actor intends to communicate a particular message by his actions and that message will be understood by those who observe it because of the surrounding circumstances."

 

 

Quote

 

 

In Jordan, Justice Higginbotham of the United States Court of Appeals wrote:

 

"

 

Quote

(S)peech, as we have come to understand that word when used in our First Amendment jurisprudence, extends to many activities that are by their very nature nonverbal. But, whatever its source, there must be some outward manifestation...."

 

Thus, in Hilton, a greeting card was taken to be speech for the purposes of extending First Amendment protection.

In Goedart, the supportive honking of a car's horn towards protestors was speech.

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Shawnster

[Miss Bea]

It’s all downhill!

[tekmantwo]

42 minutes ago, Miss Bea said:

It’s all downhill!

I've always liked the illustration that says that this system is like a train that has jumped the rails and has gone over a cliff and people are arguing about who gets to drive....

[dove]

13 minutes ago, tekmantwo said:

I've always liked the illustration that says that this system is like a train that has jumped the rails and has gone over a cliff and people are arguing about who gets to drive....

Or the old one about painting your cabin while the Titanic is sinking. Incredible how people are fulfilling prophecy by taking no note of what's going on around them..

[tekmantwo]

 

1 minute ago, Dove said:

Incredible how people are fulfilling prophecy

While being smug about it. ...I have a brother like that.  He is so proud of the fact that once he turned 18 he got out of captivity. I /we (siblings) keep trying,  he keeps denying...

I pray that someday he chooses to come back,  he's a smart guy, very kind, I kinda love the guy, I just don't associate with him much. ...

[dove]

14 minutes ago, tekmantwo said:

 

While being smug about it. ...I have a brother like that.  He is so proud of the fact that once he turned 18 he got out of captivity. I /we (siblings) keep trying,  he keeps denying...

I pray that someday he chooses to come back,  he's a smart guy, very kind, I kinda love the guy, I just don't associate with him much. ...

Seems like there's not many families that don't have at least one the same..mine included..😞

[ElizaJane]

14 hours ago, tekmantwo said:

 

What do our Brothers and Sisters do, if in that situation?

Not going to pledge, so, how do they become citizens,  if that is what they want?

 

Many years ago I personally a Witness family where the mom was born in a different country. The father and children were born in the U.S.  The mom was perfectly content not being a U.S. citizen.  U.S. citizenship didn't offer her anything beneficial.

I was born in the U.S. but at this time, I am a legal resident of another country.  If the politics here change, and I am required to become a citizen, I will be content to leave if becoming a citizen would require pledging to a flag, or taking some other type oath, etc.

[kejedo]

I used a number of tactics when teaching school to avoid flag salute participation. First year teaching public school, I did not have a home room - was in the copy room standing behind the head of Dept, (later supt of schools,) when the 'pledge' came over the loudspeaker. I expected the head teacher to stop and assume position. He never skipped a beat with his paper- copying, and paid no attention to the message. Other times,  I managed to reserve my seat and come in late for graduations, or get out of graduation attendance by doing other volunteer assignments during the school year. Many of the schools in which I taught did not include this ritual.                             

 

There are a number of articles in the opening post showing that folks do not have a united opinion on this subject and are certainly not aware of pertinent laws. 

 

Pine Bush NY is a stone's throw from me, and I never heard a word about this news story.   Looked it up- seems that it happened 3 years ago, and caused a brief uproar.                        

 

Many of the ESL students I taught became US citizens. Memorizing some rhetoric did not seem to have any impact on them, except as an opportunity to get more family members out of a country with supposedly less economic advantages.  We had a useful article about emigrating/immigrating some time ago.  The fact that dual or multi-citizenship exists may indicate that pledging ones allegiance to a specific country is not necessarily a definable position. 

 

So sorry to hear that some of our Brothers or Sisters may already be affected by this situation. So glad that we, as Witnesses of Jehovah, do not worship a political emblem.  

[kejedo]

15 hours ago, kejedo said:

 

# 16 posted incorrectly, sorry. Anyone with authority is welcome to remove it. 

 

 

Hatcheckgirl - Post has been adjusted, so now you won't see it anymore 

Edited September 29, 2018 by hatcheckgirl
added my comment

[Shawnster]

15 hours ago, ElizaJane said:

Many years ago I personally a Witness family where the mom was born in a different country. The father and children were born in the U.S.  The mom was perfectly content not being a U.S. citizen.  U.S. citizenship didn't offer her anything beneficial.

I was born in the U.S. but at this time, I am a legal resident of another country.  If the politics here change, and I am required to become a citizen, I will be content to leave if becoming a citizen would require pledging to a flag, or taking some other type oath, etc.

I know a Japanese sister that became a citizen back in the 90s.  There are provisions where a Witness can become a citizen and retain their Christian stand. This happens regularly. 

[hatcheckgirl]

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/faqs-about-taking-oath-of-u-s-citizenship.html

 

The section on JWs and the alternative oath is interesting....

 

Question: As a Jehovah's Witness, I can't take an oath—can I still become a citizen?

My religion teaches me not to take an oath of allegiance to any country, and that military service is forbidden. Can I still become a naturalized U.S. citizen without taking an oath?

Answer: A modified oath is permissible if you can show religious reasons

To become a U.S. citizen, you will have to attend an oath ceremony and make a pledge of allegiance to the United States. However, “conscientious objectors” to military service and those whose religion has instructed them not to use the word “oath” can request a modified oath from USCIS, omitting four phrases:

1. “on oath” (You will instead use “solemnly affirm.”)
2. “so help me God”
3. “willing to bear arms on behalf of the U.S.” and
4. “willing to perform noncombatant services in the Armed Forces of the U.S.”

Request the modified oath when you submit your N-400, which will ask questions about taking up weapons, joining in a war, or providing noncombatant services in the armed forces. (See Filling Out USCIS Form N-400.)

You must also attach information stating that you are a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses in good standing (an active participant in congregational events) together with a letter on official letterhead explaining that Jehovah’s Witnesses are opposed to bearing arms, military service, and using the words “on oath.” A letter from your congregation’s elder is considered adequate.

At your naturalization interview, a USCIS officer may ask you further questions on this topic. (Also see What to Expect at Your Naturalization Interview.)

[ElizaJane]

This is good information for those with interest in becoming U.S. citizens.

 

It was in the 90s that I knew this family. At that time she had no interest. Since that time, I have moved away and don't know if she ever felt the need for U.S. citizenship.

[boodles]

Is the citizenship oath different than the oath to work for the US government, like during the Census?

[kejedo]

I had a part time U.S. gov job while pioneering. Another Sis was already working with this supervisor, who said "Oh, I don't need to do this part. I know about your beliefs."