Jesus statues

[Shawnster]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:07 AM, BillyR said:

Maybe it isn't about trying to "change history" at all.

It's about giving undue honor to men.  That is really what all these statues are.  They are honoring men.  The problem is you can find skeletons in everyone's closest.  Yes, these men that are honored with statues have some horrible history.  They've scratched just one aspect of this and revealed racism and the support of slavery in the past of some of these people.  This shouldn't come as a surprise since these historical figures are the result of their times.  Christopher Columbus statues are being removed because it was "suddenly" realized that Columbus supported the institutions of his time.  Funny how nobody is yelling for the removal of Washington or Jefferson statues and monuments or for renaming Washington State or Washington DC (yet some have commented about defacing or destroying Mt. Rushmore).  

 

These are worldly men who are the product of their times.  One person's saint is another person's sinner.  I realized this a few years ago on a Star Trek discussion board of all places.  There was a "discussion" about naming a space ship to honor the explorer Cortez.  The objection was Cortez was a colonial Spaniard that was just as brutal to South American natives as anyone else.  Funny thing, though, is that there are people in South America who respect Cortez as a national treasure.  

 

The Cortez experience is what helped me realize the folly of honoring humans with statues.  All humans are imperfect.  People want to honor and praise Nelson Mandela.  Yes, Mandela was a great political figure who fought for equality in South Africa, but he wasn't a saint.  Mandela cheated on his first wife who was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.  Yet, nobody has a problem erecting a statue to honor an adulterer.  

 

People who honor historical figures pick and choose which aspects of that person's history to revere and which aspects to ignore.  And these choices change with the whims of time.

 

 

[jayrtom]

What about putting all Americans out of the country, since the USA exists just because English people went there and took it from the natives who lived there... If that is what people wnat to do...

It's not just racism that is negative in human history... in fact, all human history is full of injustice and violence! Thank Jehovah, all political countries and governments will be just dust in the wind

 

 

[BenJepthah]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

 

People who honor historical figures pick and choose which aspects of that person's history to revere and which aspects to ignore.  And these choices change with the whims of time.

That’s why I’m not to concerned about the general idea of this.  Remove them all! 
    Nearly every one was an adulterer BTW. Including MLK. 
     Even a statue of Paul would have its detractors due to his previous support of killing Christians.  That is the counterpoint.  Grant owned (1) slave for about 1 year whom he released.( making that one an indentured servant). Then fought to liberate 100’s of thousands. Lincoln was conflicted about the institute of slavery at first ( but made up his mind after meeting so many freed people like Douglas and Sojourner Truth).  Washington owned slaves ( many of which he probably never actually lasted eyes upon ( including one of my wife’s ancestors). He purchased many to fight alongside him and spy for him with the guarantee of freedom after the war was won. They had the same rations and uniforms as the regular and enlisted men. Bore the same burdens. So, merely the accusation of supporting slavery does not make the person a brute as many who supported the institution did so with the goal of its eventual end. But look what’s really happening. 
     History teaches that when one country falls to another the conquering country erases the history of the previous. Destroys its images , changes its books.
     Only the US uniquely has allowed the conquered confederacy to maintain its history and the Conquered Souix to carve the image of Crazy horse into a mountain. The conquered Santa Anna to be memorialized and evening to victorious Santa Anna to be remembered at the Alamo. That is one of the principles of freedom . Acknowledging all of history good and. Bad and having a free and honest discourse.  
      This movement isn’t trying to bring justice. This movement is doing what all tyrannies seek to do , over through an established power and replace it . Do we imagine it will succeed? We , Jehovah’s people know that it will fail. But at the cost of lives already lost and more to be lost if it persists. 
     But back to Jesus.  Why remove only the “ white Jesus” ? This is an outrageous attempt at social division. Nothing more. Unless Mr. Shaun King is a complete Idiot ( and I doubt he is) he certainly knows that the reason for “ White “ images of Jesus was to make converts in Northern Europe .  It turns out that people are more likely to agree with your teaching if they see you as one of them. Shaun King knows this  ( just look at him).
      And , in fact , in every land people have depicted Jesus according to their culture: White Jesus, Black Jesus, Asian Jesus ,six armed Hindu Jesus ( talk about a nightmare for the Romans)  and Jewish Jesus ( which is probably just Jesus).  It wasn’t a means of oppression at all. It was just dumb. 
           So why all the fuss? It’s just to get the Il informed and unreasonable to react . Preferably with violence to justify the overthrow of a government. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by BenJepthah

[Tortuga]

The sea of mankind. Violent, turbulent, dangerous, hidden dangers and it stinks...

[BenJepthah]

1 minute ago, Bro Richard said:

The sea of mankind. Violent, turbulent, dangerous, hidden dangers and it stinks...

Pee yew.  

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, jayrtom said:

What about putting all Americans out of the country, since the USA exists just because English people went there and took it from the natives who lived there... If that is what people wnat to do...

Most of us are a bunch of mutts at this point, though. Part of my ancestry includes Native American.  Many US citizens ancestry is traced back to actual slaves.  Still others are descended and mixed from waves of immigrants form Germany, Poland, Ireland, China, Vietnam, Iran, etc...

 

I daresay you trace most US citizens heritage you'll find Native Americans from either North or South America.

[jayrtom]

12 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Most of us are a bunch of mutts at this point, though. Part of my ancestry includes Native American.  Many US citizens ancestry is traced back to actual slaves.  Still others are descended and mixed from waves of immigrants form Germany, Poland, Ireland, China, Vietnam, Iran, etc...

 

I daresay you trace most US citizens heritage you'll find Native Americans from either North or South America.

I was just mocking, but the fact is that the country was built upon violence and robbery. Not just that the US, but several African countries, Brazil, etc...

Whatever happened, with its good and bad, is what makes us what we are today. Trying to erase history is trying to erase our own existence

[Tortuga]

8 hours ago, jayrtom said:

I was just mocking, but the fact is that the country was built upon violence and robbery. Not just that the US, but several African countries, Brazil, etc...

Whatever happened, with its good and bad, is what makes us what we are today. Trying to erase history is trying to erase our own existence

Someone recently made a comparison that I thought was appropriate. If the Germans tried to destroy all of the concentration camps they would be accused of trying to erase history so it could be repeated. On the other hand, statues of swastikas in the middle of the city would be offensive to the victims of history. 

 

I can understand a balance between removing something offensive and not erasing history. Unfortunately current world events affect that balance point. 

[BenJepthah]

9 hours ago, jayrtom said:

but the fact is that the country was built upon violence and robbery.

     This is slightly inaccurate. The Country ( National Policy) was founded on the principles in the Bill of Rights.  The idea ( a truly revolutionary one) that rights are from God and belong to all people. The Rights to life, Liberty, and to pursue ones own prosperity .
    This  idea and document was conceived at a time when most people could neither read nor possessed a Bible ( from which the overarching idea was taken ). And at a time when one could easily starve to death. 
    We live now at a time when we are more educated .   Our experience does not include starvation, or smallpox, or the idea that while trying to build our own house and plant our own garden we may have too ( to survive) supplant another family from their ancestral hunting grounds.  Such were the realities of the time. 

[BenJepthah]

https://news.sky.com/story/hans-christian-andersens-little-mermaid-statue-vandalised-with-racist-fish-graffiti-12020285
 

       Accusing a fairy tale creature of Racism. Tells me a lot about the unhinged  mind of the Vandals . 

[BenJepthah]

If you ever wondered if the Media just intentionally stored up these things . Check out The 1619 project. Currently being pushed into public school programming. 

[jayrtom]

On 7/3/2020 at 4:57 PM, BenJepthah said:

     This is slightly inaccurate. The Country ( National Policy) was founded on the principles in the Bill of Rights.  The idea ( a truly revolutionary one) that rights are from God and belong to all people. The Rights to life, Liberty, and to pursue ones own prosperity .
    This  idea and document was conceived at a time when most people could neither read nor possessed a Bible ( from which the overarching idea was taken ). And at a time when one could easily starve to death. 
    We live now at a time when we are more educated .   Our experience does not include starvation, or smallpox, or the idea that while trying to build our own house and plant our own garden we may have too ( to survive) supplant another family from their ancestral hunting grounds.  Such were the realities of the time. 

what I meant was that the country started not by those documents, but when people started coming to the territory that had already inhabitants and land owners. they appropriated the land (robbery) with violence - hence the "built upon violence and robbery" comment

[Nirex]

We had an interesting Sunday talk.. like I don't know if it was the outline or just this elder's own knowledge in these areas. But he went over racism, and how the catholic church helped egg it on with conquistadors. And how the African slave trade was egged on by the churches and started it due to the wrong views of where the black race came from...

 

My point in posting it here is wait until the masses start putting 2 and 2 together like that. There will be A LOT more statues removed.

[BenJepthah]

https://www.theblaze.com/news/blm-activists-physically-attack-churchgoers
     I’m linking to this site and this report on this story because it is so rich with STUPID that I cannot begin to comment or characterize it. 

[M.J.]

19 minutes ago, BenJepthah said:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/blm-activists-physically-attack-churchgoers
     I’m linking to this site and this report on this story because it is so rich with STUPID that I cannot begin to comment or characterize it. 

After seeing this, I'm wondering if we will ever go back to a kingdom hall. People knowing our exact schedule give them opportunity to plan against us. We might have to meet physically at random times.

[BenJepthah]

1 hour ago, M.J. said:

After seeing this, I'm wondering if we will ever go back to a kingdom hall. People knowing our exact schedule give them opportunity to plan against us. We might have to meet physically at random times.

This does not disturb me for our own meetings. This kind of “ Church” is an obvious target. But I agree , it could spiral out of control even of the government’s really fast. No matter, Jehovah’s has put a Kingdom Hall in every home.

[Qapla]

We would never hand out guns at the KH - nor would we engage in a shouting match with protesters.

 

I cannot see this type of seen at a KH ... so, I doubt it will be a factor in our returning to use our buildings or how we schedule our meetings.

[Shawnster]

5 hours ago, BenJepthah said:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/blm-activists-physically-attack-churchgoers
     I’m linking to this site and this report on this story because it is so rich with STUPID that I cannot begin to comment or characterize it. 

Well, The Blaze is a conservative outlet ran by a popular radio personality.  It's definitely going to have a slant that plays to their base audience. 

[M.J.]

I know we wouldn't hand out guns or shout at protesters. I know it had a political slant.  None of these things had anything to do with the point I was making: People are becoming more and more aggressive and confrontational.  And I can now easily picture how it would look if/when they wanted to attack/provoke us. That's all. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my comment.

[Shawnster]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/frederick-douglass-statue-toppled-trnd/index.html

Quote

 

A statue of Frederick Douglass was toppled over the Fourth of July weekend, the anniversary of his famous speech

 

(CNN)There's only a stump where a statue of famed abolitionist Frederick Douglass once stood.

 

The monument to Douglass, one of several in Rochester, New York, was found ripped from its base and disposed in a gorge over the weekend. Countless statues have fallen in recent weeks, but unlike Douglass's, they were all of men on the opposite side of history.

 

 

So vandals are now attacking statues that HONOR black individuals. 

 

 

[BenJepthah]

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/07/16/church-members-searching-for-answers-after-status-of-jesus-christ-is-decapitated/
 

[EccentricM]

So errr, with all these statue removals going back I take it to the founding fathers of America, ya'll gonna come back under British rule as it invalidiates the Revolution now, right?  😄

 

But yeah, the only thing they got right is that these images were made by artists to depicted Jesus as a white weedy European with long hair, as it was the fashion of the time. But was it "racially" motivated? Don't think so, it was how artists operated back then. All cultures depict people around the world in their own art style.

Edited July 18, 2020 by EccentricM

[BenJepthah]

On 7/7/2020 at 6:49 PM, M.J. said:

I know we wouldn't hand out guns or shout at protesters. I know it had a political slant.  None of these things had anything to do with the point I was making: People are becoming more and more aggressive and confrontational.  And I can now easily picture how it would look if/when they wanted to attack/provoke us. That's all. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my comment.

Your intentions were clear.no worries or negative judgements against you. It is why I wrote: 

 

On 7/7/2020 at 2:32 PM, BenJepthah said:

But I agree , it could spiral out of control even of the government’s really fast.

That is the core truth of these crowd scenes.

[BenJepthah]

On 7/7/2020 at 6:59 PM, Shawnster said:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/frederick-douglass-statue-toppled-trnd/index.html

 

So vandals are now attacking statues that HONOR black individuals. 

 

 

Sadly the better principles espoused by Ghandi and MLK have been utterly disregarded by this new , more aggressive brand of protesting. Not only in the tactic of passive resistance but also in the substance of the famous “ I have a Dream speech their is a fundamental  departure. I would not be surprised to see an attack at some point against the statue of Dr. King by these same protesters. 

On 7/18/2020 at 5:46 PM, EccentricM said:

So errr, with all these statue removals going back I take it to the founding fathers of America, ya'll gonna come back under British rule as it invalidiates the Revolution now, right?  😄

 

But yeah, the only thing they got right is that these images were made by artists to depicted Jesus as a white weedy European with long hair, as it was the fashion of the time. But was it "racially" motivated? Don't think so, it was how artists operated back then. All cultures depict people around the world in their own art style.

Actually just about every grievance in the Declaration of Independence it can be demonstrated would today be more or less redressed. So why not? 

[Eejay]

On 7/17/2020 at 3:28 PM, BenJepthah said:

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/07/16/church-members-searching-for-answers-after-status-of-jesus-christ-is-decapitated/

I can totally understand the animosity here due to the distorted mis-interpretation by religionists of the words at Gen.9:22, 25.