Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Richie]

8 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

Just a few notes:

 

1. Heritage is a conservative political action group; so, it's no surprise that they would spin this report the way that they have.

 

2. I couldn't find a link to the above report as it is a full year old - without out the actual report, there is no way to really comment on its intent.

 

3. This seems more of a hit piece on president Biden than on anything else.

 

https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/un-report-castigates-religion-stymieing-the-sexual-orientation-gender-identity

 

Try this one... 

[trottigy]

20 minutes ago, Richie said:

https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/un-report-castigates-religion-stymieing-the-sexual-orientation-gender-identity

 

Try this one... 

 

No, that is not a link to the actual report from the UN, but rather a REPORT of an article from another source. At the bottom of that page the actual source of the ARTICLE (NOT the report) is noted as ->

 

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/07/10/uns-sexual-orientation-gender-identity-czar-attacks-religion-hindrance-lgbtq-agenda/

 

And "The Daily Signal"'s about page says:

 

Quote

The Daily Signal provides policy and political news as well as conservative commentary and policy analysis—in a fresh, visually rich, readable format for your desktop, tablet or phone. In a news landscape where traditional media conglomerates often miss the most important events, The Daily Signal focuses on underreported news related to conservative policies and interests.

 

But the actual report can be found here -> per the above link https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session53/advance-versions/A_HRC_53_37_AUV.docx

 

And that report does not say what "The Daily Signal" nor "The Heritage" is saying. Instead, the report seems to be advocating for removal of violence - rather than removal of religions. Here is a snippet:

 

Quote

State and non-State actors perpetrate violence against persons based on their actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity invoking religion or belief. On 17 May 2013, a small group of members of the LGBT community and their allies, who were commemorating the International Day against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia in Tbilisi, Georgia, was attacked by a crowd of thousands. The police failed to control the situation and the small group that had sought refuge in a building surrounded by the crowd was subjected to terror and assault, suffering physical and psychological harm. Clerics from the Orthodox Church and members of extremist groups were involved in inciting the violence.

 

Jehovah's people would never incite violence against others - based on anything. Instead, we leave it to Jehovah to judge and put an end to this very violent system of things. (Rev 11:18)

 

 

Edited May 8 by trottigy

[Richie]

8 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

No, that is not a link to the actual report from the UN, but rather a REPORT of an article from another source. At the bottom of that page the actual source of the ARTICLE (NOT the report) is noted as ->

 

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/07/10/uns-sexual-orientation-gender-identity-czar-attacks-religion-hindrance-lgbtq-agenda/

 

And "The Daily Signal"'s about page says:

 

 

But the actual report can be found here -> per the above link https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session53/advance-versions/A_HRC_53_37_AUV.docx

 

And that report does not say what "The Daily Signal" nor "The Heritage" is saying. Instead, the report seems to be advocating for remove of violence - rather than removal of religions. Here is a snippet:

 

 

Jehovah's people would never incite violence against others - based on anything. Instead, we leave it to Jehovah to judge and put an end to this very violent system of things. (Rev 11:18)

 

 

Anyway, lgbt movement is now a global force that can use UN/governments access to fight back againts any religions that may discriminate them. Through UN human right advocacy, all muslim countries have to align themselves for them not to tagged as human rights offenders. Most probably, all states, governments and institutions support lgbt movement will hate those opposing them. 

[trottigy]

22 minutes ago, Richie said:

Anyway, lgbt movement is now a global force that can use UN/governments access to fight back againts any religions that may discriminate them. Through UN human right advocacy, all muslim countries have to align themselves for them not to tagged as human rights offenders. Most probably, all states, governments and institutions support lgbt movement will hate those opposing them. 

 

I don't know about "all muslim countries having to align themselves for them not to tagged as human rights offenders", but certainly this group would advocate for the elimination of the death penalty for their actions ( Uganda: UN experts condemn egregious anti-LGBT legislation | OHCHR ).

 

We live in interesting times, eh.

[cme]

2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

True, but there have been religious wars for centuries. It's hard for me to see any current or future conflict as a reason to destroy a world wide religious system.

 

If we are going to speculate what will happen, my guess is that since Satan and the demons are involved in the cry of P&S that it has something to do with what Jehovah finds depraved and LGBT is a major issue around the world right now. The worlds acceptance of that depraved lifestyle has exploded in the last few years. I think that will be the major issue soon.

 

Look at how Jehovah is preparing us to face that issue, look at the articles about homosexuality, intolerance, pornography.

 

I think that if the world enacted a law forcing religions to openly accept LGBT, it would eventually create a war between religion and the world's demon inspired concept of P&S.

 

So true.  When the world becomes that depraved then society will no longer function.  Rome became divided once it became depraved in sexual abandoned acts of immorality.   So did it happen in Noah's time when it was wiped clean in a bath of deluge.  Then we have Sodom and Gomorrah burned to the ground by the fury of Jehovah's fire.

 

And today it is happening again.  They use Jehovah's Rainbow that He used as a covenant with man and beast as a sign that He would no longer cause a deluge to happen.  Satan is rubbing that rainbow in Jehovah's face by homosexuals to use the color of the rainbow to express their gross acts.

 

We see that nations not only ours but, around the world are over runned by homosexuals.  The time is ripe for destruction.

[Tortuga]

14 minutes ago, cme said:

So true.  When the world becomes that depraved then society will no longer function.  Rome became divided once it became depraved in sexual abandoned acts of immorality.   So did it happen in Noah's time when it was wiped clean in a bath of deluge.  Then we have Sodom and Gomorrah burned to the ground by the fury of Jehovah's fire.

 

And today it is happening again.  They use Jehovah's Rainbow that He used as a covenant with man and beast as a sign that He would no longer cause a deluge to happen.  Satan is rubbing that rainbow in Jehovah's face by homosexuals to use the color of the rainbow to express their gross acts.

 

We see that nations not only ours but, around the world are over runned by homosexuals.  The time is ripe for destruction.

I can imagine the world religious leaders working with the world leaders to ensure basic human rights and equality around the world, but it will include demon inspired things that Jehovah finds repugnant. After the religious leaders join the world leaders and declare P&S, the religious leaders are left without a heaven or hell to control the people. So they try to add a moral conscience to the world and Jehovah lets the world leaders turn on the harlot. It will be interesting to see what really happens.

[Tortuga]

So here's a thought.

What if the world leader's intention isn't about banning religious organizations, what if their real intent is to kill God, any God, every God and since religion represents God, religion gets banned. 

 

I wrote a story about that a couple of years ago. I believe the first half of the story could really happen.

 

https://jwtalk.net/topic/30018-new-system-story-ideas/?do=findComment&comment=787687

 

Edited May 8 by Tortuga

[Pjdriver]

Unless Jehovah alters the mindset of hundreds of millions of people....I would speculate that it is “Organized Religion” that will be destroyed. I don’t see peoples so-called “spirituality" suddenly vanishing. Organized religion is what turns many people off and what has caused many of the atrocities committed over the years.

Seize all assets and outlaw organized religious activities.

IMO 

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

Unless Jehovah alters the mindset of hundreds of millions of people....I would speculate that it is “Organized Religion” that will be destroyed. I don’t see peoples so-called “spirituality" suddenly vanishing. Organized religion is what turns many people off and what has caused many of the atrocities committed over the years.

Seize all assets and outlaw organized religious activities.

IMO 

Exactly.

*** w19 October p. 15 par. 4 Stay Faithful Through the “Great Tribulation” ***
 It seems reasonable that this attack will not mean that all the members of those religions will be destroyed. Rather, it seems that the nations will get rid of the religious organizations. Once those organizations are gone, the former members will realize that their religious leaders failed them and will likely try to distance themselves from those religions.
 

[New World Explorer]

16 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

will not mean that all the members of those religions will be destroyed.

Yes, impossible and unreasonable task due to the demographic below: 

Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that there are 5.8 billion religiously affiliated adults and children around the globe, representing 84% of the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.

 

 

[Dustparticle]

3 hours ago, Tortuga said:

So here's a thought.

What if the world leader's intention isn't about banning religious organizations, what if their real intent is to kill God, any God, every God and since religion represents God, religion gets banned. 

 

I wrote a story about that a couple of years ago. I believe the first half of the story could really happen.

 

https://jwtalk.net/topic/30018-new-system-story-ideas/?do=findComment&comment=787687

 

Kill God? Let say that they will not believe in God since he did not protect BT when destroyed them. Then we will have to tell them there is a God and you are next. 

[Richie]

5 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

I don't know about "all muslim countries having to align themselves for them not to tagged as human rights offenders", but certainly this group would advocate for the elimination of the death penalty for their actions ( Uganda: UN experts condemn egregious anti-LGBT legislation | OHCHR ).

 

We live in interesting times, eh.

Saudi the birth place of Islam has a young prince running the country. He made lot of drastic change that shocked the clerics (Imam) and the entire Muslim community. Some Arab countries now let these people live and expose themselve to the public with no harm. So gradually, some Muslims change their attitude towards them and some are belong to this group.

 

Islam is gradually degraded and eventually destroyed by this group. 

[Richie]

34 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Rather, it seems that the nations will get rid of the religious organizations

Persecuting the clerics, pastors or the pillars of the organized religions are enough to stopped the operations of organized religions. Parishoners are normally disappeared when leaders are gone. 

 

It is now happening to our country. The once so prominent and wealthy charismatic leaders become the hot pursuit of the government, parishoners are shocked and shaken. Now, they are gradually losing their appeal to the people along their wealth. 

[Tortuga]

25 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

Kill God? Let say that they will not believe in God since he did not protect BT when destroyed them. Then we will have to tell them there is a God and you are next. 

God represents a moral value, a conscience to people that don't believe in a living God. So if they don't want to be bothered by their conscience, they 'kill' God by destroying the organizations that tell them what God says. 

[Dolce vita]

4 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Voici donc une réflexion.

Et si l’intention du leader mondial n’était pas d’interdire les organisations religieuses, que se passerait-il si sa véritable intention était de tuer Dieu, n’importe quel Dieu, chaque Dieu, et puisque la religion représente Dieu, la religion est interdite. 

 

J'ai écrit une histoire à ce sujet il y a quelques années. Je crois que la première moitié de l'histoire pourrait vraiment se produire.

 

https://jwtalk.net/topic/30018-new-system-story-ideas/?do=findComment&comment=787687

 

What a story! I loved it @Tortue I had never thought of this way of approaching the reason why false religion would soon be destroyed: God is dead so religion must die too. Lots of very interesting ideas. To meditate...

Thank you, Richard. 

[LeolaRootStew]

4 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

Unless Jehovah alters the mindset of hundreds of millions of people....I would speculate that it is “Organized Religion” that will be destroyed. I don’t see peoples so-called “spirituality" suddenly vanishing. Organized religion is what turns many people off and what has caused many of the atrocities committed over the years.

Seize all assets and outlaw organized religious activities.

IMO 

 

I know many "Christians" who don't belong to any Church because of the hypocrisy and acceptance of LGBT+ views, among other things. Ironically, they have voiced their support for the destruction of those Churches because they believe Christianity needs a reset. I wonder if people who think like that will react favorably when there are signs in the heavens during the GT.

[LeolaRootStew]

As I was reading about the circumcision debate/Cornelius, something caught my eye:

 

Quote

He reported to us how he saw the angel stand in his house and say: ‘Send men to Jopʹpa and summon Simon who is called Peter,  14 and he will tell you things by which you and all your household may get saved.’  15 But when I started to speak, the holy spirit fell on them just as it did also on us in the beginning.  16 At this I recalled the saying of the Lord, how he used to say: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with holy spirit.’  17 If, therefore, God gave the same free gift to them that he gave to us who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I should be able to hinder God?

Acts 11

 

Clearly Jehovah can give holy spirit to someone who 1) isn't baptized and 2) is largely ignorant of Biblical truth. Why were they chosen? They had the right heart condition. I'm seeing that it's not a stretch after all for non-worshippers during the GT to be shown this favor based on their heart condition. Could they even survive Armageddon without being baptized? I don't know, but I'm more open to the idea now.

[Richie]

6 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

As I was reading about the circumcision debate/Cornelius, something caught my eye:

 

 

Clearly Jehovah can give holy spirit to someone who 1) isn't baptized and 2) is largely ignorant of Biblical truth. Why were they chosen? They had the right heart condition. I'm seeing that it's not a stretch after all for non-worshippers during the GT to be shown this favor based on their heart condition. Could they even survive Armageddon without being baptized? I don't know, but I'm more open to the idea now.

Mat. 28:18-19 - Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,  20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things. 

 

1 Pet. 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Baptism is a command, public declaration of faith... 

and an intial  stage for salvation. Anybody can be baptized even not in the convention or assembly. This most probably will happen if thing is so necessary. 

 

 

[Miss Bea]

15 hours ago, Andrey said:

Another reason for hatred towards religious organizations is the loss in the eyes of politicians and people of their purpose and influence on nations. The loss of the meaning of religion in society. If something loses its purpose, what is the point of using it? It is better to throw it away or destroy it. 

 

They say: “Let us tear off their shackles and throw off their ropes!” (Psalm 2:3)

And, i donʼt know about the rest of the world, but, “religeous organizations, get a huge tax break. And i do believe they have used it to their benefit. 
Iʼve sort of thougnt that with the many, many changes in the last years, that might be one of the reasons, with Jehovahʼs organization. 
If push comes to shove, they might have a go at our properties, like they did in Russia, to take them away. 
They can only do what Jehovah permits, so, it might get downrignt interesting. There might be some hardships for us all, but it is so exciting to think of the theocratic history that is about to take place.

“Stand firm and see the salvation Jehovah will perform for you today”.

We shall!

 

Edited May 9 by Miss Bea
Left out a, “t”.

[Richie]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2024/may/08/hopeless-and-broken-why-the-worlds-top-climate-scientists-are-in-despair

 

380 top climate scientists were asked about the future

 

"It was a very dark point in my life. I was unable to do anything and was just sort of surviving". 

 

"I find it infuriating, distressing, overwhelming". 

 

We have very strong reasons why we are so near from Jehovah's day. Only this, we feel the nearness of the end. 

 

[truce]

6 hours ago, Richie said:

Mat. 28:18-19 - Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,  20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things. 

 

1 Pet. 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Baptism is a command, public declaration of faith... 

and an intial  stage for salvation. Anybody can be baptized even not in the convention or assembly. This most probably will happen if thing is so necessary. 

 

 

Or baptisms could continue to take place after Armageddon because not all may be baptized before the end comes as our May 2024 WT seems to indicate. Think about people in places like North Korea, Arab countries, lands where our work is banned, remote jungles, the Sentinel Islands, children born in the new system, resurrected unrighteous ones, ones who turn to the truth during the Great Tribulation, unbaptized children of Witnesses, unbaptized publishers, progressive bible students, etc. All of these will continue to be taught in the new system by means of the grand educational work post-Armageddon. Since we believe that there will be a grand teaching work after Armageddon,  it follows that there will be a grand-disciple making work and this will possibly lead to thousands,  if not millions, of baptisms. So yes, we can rightfully expect that not everyone who survives Armageddon and comes out of the Great Tribulation will have been a baptized Witness, but all will have taken their stand to be part of the Great crowd. Notice Revelation 7:13,14 does not say they have all been baptized in water,  but that they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (they have taken advantage of the ransom provision that was mercifully extended to them and have taken their stand on Jehovah's side, exercising faith that Jesus blood is enough to cover them through the Great Tribulation). We like to believe and teach that millions will be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn the truth during the 1000 years, but can we say that this teaching work will not also apply to the few or the many who may yet take their stand during the Great Tribulation and come in line for survival? 

Edited May 9 by truce

[MChill14]

Palestinians seek UN General Assembly backing for full membership
 

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-seek-un-general-assembly-backing-for-full-membership-20240507-p5fqji

 

I know GA decisions are non binding but 🤷🤷

[Tia]

I think that if the world enacted a law forcing religions to openly accept LGBT, it would eventually create a war between religion and the world's demon inspired concept of P&S.

 

I too have been thinking the same....and I just flashed on Brother Anthony words - As far as Jehovah Organization - His people it will NEVER happen!!!

[Richie]

12 minutes ago, Tia said:

I think that if the world enacted a law forcing religions to openly accept LGBT, it would eventually create a war between religion and the world's demon inspired concept of P&S.

 

I too have been thinking the same....and I just flashed on Brother Anthony words - As far as Jehovah Organization - His people it will NEVER happen!!!

LGBTQ+ has already gained influence and can find refuge through UN Human Rights laws which are favored to them. Conservative religions can act as opposition to UN but with international pressures brought by UN members voted to LGBTQ+. OR change religions doctrine accustomed to LGBTQ+ belief. 

 

I see LGBTQ+ can use UN International Human Rights laws against to the strictest religions on earth (Islam). Now, huge number of UN members are gradually changing their stance to accept LGBTQ+ doctrine and sending pressures to other members to do the same. 

 

From this point of view, there will be war with UN/Governments and Conservative Religions because of gender discrimination which UN/Governments believe is against International Human Rights law. 

[Pjdriver]

3 hours ago, truce said:

Or baptisms could continue to take place after Armageddon because not all may be baptized before the end comes as our May 2024 WT seems to indicate. Think about people in places like North Korea, Arab countries, lands where our work is banned, remote.............

I agree. A long while back we’ve had discussions here that a person had to be baptized before the GT to be saved...  However, the requirement for baptism applies to those who can make an informed dedication.

 

Evidently the GC in Rev 7 is portraying those who have a relationship with God and are baptized....”they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb”. These have a great advantage and opportunity for survival.

 

However this in itself does not necessarily rule out others surviving the GT. Like Baptism does not guarantee survival. Likewise, not being baptized because of circumstances beyond our control will not automatically mean our destruction would it?  Jehovah does not desire any to be destroyed.

 

Many may not be at that point of dedication before armageddon starts....however they may understand enough to join us during that time. But a dedication requires a relationship with God. We don[’t just want people going thru the motions. 

 

Just my opinion but I can’t see someone starting to study, then they are told;  "if you want to survive you better make a dedication right now and get baptized.”   Should dedication be pressured, or made in a desperate attempt to get saved?  

 

I think of the example of the Egyptians voluntarily leaving with the Israelites.....later they agreed to the terms of the Law covenant. 

 

Jehovah is a reasonable, and merciful God.