2023 Governing Body Update #8 / BEARDS!!!

[Jwanon]

5 hours ago, Stormswift said:

That's it.

I remember the talk by Dan Sydlik ... he talked about a young man at Bethel who had let his hair grow longer... he suggested he get a haircut ... young brother balked at the suggestion. Then he ended up leaving bethel (Longish hair would have been an indicator only). He ended up getting a job at Disney. They asked him to cut his hair and he did!

Brother Sydlik said he wouldn't cut his hair for God's kingdom but he would for the magic kingdom.

I think this illustrates ... where the heart is or was prior to this change.  

Obedience even if we don't understand or agree at the time shows our priorities of our hearts.

 

Do you have a link to that talk ? 😄

[Miss Bea]

11 hours ago, Jwanon said:

 

Please tell me if I'm wrong here, if I'm being judgmental and have to correct my point of view, but...I don't feel like someone who doesn't attend the meetings anymore simply because they wanted to grow a beard was in the truth in the first place...

 

All that tells me is that they loved their beard more than Jehovah. I don't think it's normal for someone to grow weak in the faith just because they were discouraged by their congregation to not have a beard.

 

That's how I personnally feel, please feel free to disagree with me if you believe I don't have the right approach to this

 

My only thought is that I’d be embarrassed if I were him. That beard did not grow overnight. 

[Miss Bea]

Okay. My suspicion is that we are getting ready for the GT. 
Reporting time? Really hard, under ban. 
Beards? It takes a bit of equipment, etc. Plus the time. I think shaving  will be an afterthought. Not important. Serving Jehovah most important. Period. 
Hair on face? Not a problem.

And I think we are being trained to be able to witness, even under adverse circumstances. Without meeting with our group. That may not be possible. 
Jehovah is really taking care of us!

Edited December 20, 2023 by Miss Bea

[truce]

14 minutes ago, Miss Bea said:

My only thought is that I’d be embarrassed if I were him. That beard did not grow overnight. 

No need to be embarrassed. It was a personal style or grooming choice that didn't violate any Bible principle. Having a beard was never a mark of disobedience or rebellion as long as he didn't force or pressure others to grow one. 

[truce]

12 hours ago, Floyd said:

This is what I have been wearing for about 34 years to meetings, service, assemblies, and conventions and even for parts on the convention. Nobody has ever said a word.

 

Even with the Reebok logo on?

[Ishaya]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:59 PM, Tortuga said:

The perception of tattoos has changed a lot in the last few years, it's common to see people get inked.

I wonder if that will be discussed in a future update...

 

Who wants to be the first one to get a JW.org tattoo? 

🤣

 

I think the bible condemns tattoos in very clear terms, Lev 19:28.

with such clear directive from the bible I don't think the GB will for any reason approve tattoos.

 

Unlike the case with beard where even in the bible times it was considered inappropriate for a man to shave his beard completely,Lev 19:27,

so asking Christian men in modern time to shave their beard to become examplary does not have a clear scriptural basis and in fact it appears to go contrary to what the bible stipulates for Jehovah's male worshippers,Lev 21:5,Lev 19:27.

 

When you think of it,it just doesn't make sense to insist that Christian men must be neatly shaved.

Jesus kept a beard.

 

are we more righteous than Jesus? certainly not.

 

But for tattoos,its a clear No-No for all Christians. 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Brother_Bliss
Edited because this is where the off-topic discussion begins, which will be split off into a new topic.

[Abigail]

39 minutes ago, Miss Bea said:

Okay. My suspicion is that we are getting ready for the GT. 
Reporting time? Really hard, under ban. 
Beards? It takes a bit of equipment, etc. Plus the time. I think shaving  will be an afterthought. Not important. Serving Jehovah most important. Period. 
Hair on face? Not a problem.

And I think we are being trained to be able to witness, even under adverse circumstances. Without meeting with our group. That may not be possible. 
Jehovah is really taking care of us!

Sisters will have a problem shaving in GT too, and make-up - forget it!

 

Seriously, yes definitely all preparation.

 

Could you imagine faithful men of old being resurrected and then told to shave before giving their life experiences at an assembly ...

[Abigail]

4 minutes ago, Ishaya said:

 

I think the bible condemns tattoos in very clear terms, Lev 19:28.

with such clear directive from the bible I don't think the GB will for any reason approve tattoos.

 

Unlike the case with beard where even in the bible times it was considered inappropriate for a man to shave his beard completely,Lev 19:27,

so asking Christian men in modern time to shave their beard to become examplary does not have a clear scriptural basis and in fact it appears to go contrary to what the bible stipulates for Jehovah's male worshippers,Lev 21:5,Lev 19:27.

 

When you think of it,it just doesn't make sense to insist that Christian men must be neatly shaved.

Jesus keeps beards even till now,all the Angels keep beards,so what makes Christian men today different.

are we more righteous than Jesus and the Angels? certainly not.

 

But for tattoos,its a clear No-No for all Christians. 

 

Men were designed to grow beards.

 

They were not designed with tattoos. Principle is they defile the body, just like drugs, tobacco etc.

[Floyd]

2 hours ago, truce said:

Even with the Reebok logo on?

 

Pants cover it for the most part but sometimes I will blacken it with some shoe polish.

[Dages]

Sisters want to reach wearing trousers? Go for it, that's called informal witnessing

[Hope]

3 hours ago, Abigail said:

Sisters will have a problem shaving in GT too, and make-up - forget it!

 

Seriously, yes definitely all preparation.

 

Could you imagine faithful men of old being resurrected and then told to shave before giving their life experiences at an assembly ...

I have makeup in my go bag... ☺️💋

[Jwanon]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:03 PM, jwhess said:

I am sure the 3 minute beginning discussion about the world disasters and the deaths & injuries of witnesses around the world, will probably pale  in comparison to the vast majority of the update being devoted to the 'beard' part of the talk.  But before we get too deep into the facial hair analysis, we should say a prayer for those who were caught in harms way.

 

Reminds me of that meme I saw

 

 

[Paulo]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:29 PM, Stormswift said:

Next to go ... ties? Maybe?

Yes, please.

They are nice and all, but I never really liked to wear a symbol of war.

[MontRose]

15 hours ago, Adam! said:

Some have said that following this decision, the GB should now consider whether sisters should wear pants (trousers).

 

I'm a little unsure about this. Scriptural principles that come to mind are Deut 22:5 and 1 John 2:15

You bring up a great point, that perhaps this needs to be clarified or revisited.

 

My wife has talked to me about this specifically, as have coworkers. The gist is, if it is acceptable at the highest levels of government and offices, as "business formal" or whatever it is called, why it is considered inappropriate during meetings?

 

I honestly don't know.. I suppose a small video about skirts and pants would be helpful to have next  

 

And apparently there is a lot of interpretation here.. I just looked up "business dress code women" and this was the first picture. It struck me that casual here is actually a common look at meetings (the casual one and business would be the only ones appropriate?) 

 

[Brother_Bliss]

17 hours ago, Jwanon said:

Please tell me if I'm wrong here, if I'm being judgmental and have to correct my point of view, but...I don't feel like someone who doesn't attend the meetings anymore simply because they wanted to grow a beard was in the truth in the first place...

 

All that tells me is that they loved their beard more than Jehovah. I don't think it's normal for someone to grow weak in the faith just because they were discouraged by their congregation to not have a beard.

 

That's how I personnally feel, please feel free to disagree with me if you believe I don't have the right approach to this

 

If someone didn't attend meetings regularly for whatever reason, then yes I think you could consider them "on the fence" spiritually and in need of encouragement.

 

If someone attended a meeting with a beard all these years faithfully, then you could assume that they were indeed spiritually secure in their relationship with Jehovah. 

 

Remember, there was never a "no beard" rule. But it was taboo, and because it was taboo those sporting one were not considered "exemplary" which held them back from reaching out for privileges. Not every brother is interested in such privileges, and were happy to attend meetings and go out in the ministry with their beard. The beard alone was never a reflection of their spirituality - which is the point that the GB Update addressed.

 

Now, on the other hand, if someone was weak to begin with, then the beard issue was a stumbling block. A young newly baptized brother became inactive right after his baptism. Me and another brother would visit him regularly to try and encourage him. When we FINALLY got him to come to a meeting, after the program Brother Anti-Beard Elder goes over to him, mentions his facial hair, and tells him he should know better. We hadn't seen this brother in months, and after that, we never saw him again. 

 

The same Elder had a student that was somewhat progressive and had attended a few meetings. The student comes to me at one meeting and asks me about why nobody has facial hair, because his teacher pointed at his mustache/goatee after one study session and said to him "You know, the day is coming when you're going to have to shave that thing off your face". I tried to explain that he can sport his facial hair all he wants, that it's just this brothers strong opinion and we occasionally have a bearded brother and neighboring congregations have bearded brothers, but alas, this was around the last time we ever saw this student attend a meeting.

 

^ Those are just 2 of many examples I have see with my own eyes and heard with my own ears how the taboo surrounding facial hair can be a stumbling block to those who are weak. Personally, I would have kept my mouth shut about facial hair and let the student draw his own conclusions, because I don't feel like being fitted for a millstone around my neck, lol. But the GB Update to settle the issue of beards being allowed even for appointed men was necessary, because in this day and age it would be easy to hear "JW's can't have beards" (which was NEVER true) and conclude we don't have the truth, because you can read the exact opposite in the scriptures.

[Paulo]

39 minutes ago, MontRose said:

You bring up a great point, that perhaps this needs to be clarified or revisited.

 

My wife has talked to me about this specifically, as have coworkers. The gist is, if it is acceptable at the highest levels of government and offices, as "business formal" or whatever it is called, why it is considered inappropriate during meetings?

 

I honestly don't know.. I suppose a small video about skirts and pants would be helpful to have next  

 

And apparently there is a lot of interpretation here.. I just looked up "business dress code women" and this was the first picture. It struck me that casual here is actually a common look at meetings (the casual one and business would be the only ones appropriate?) 

 

 

 

From https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/spain/Special-Exhibit-Features-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Imprisoned-for-Their-Conscience-in-Spain/

 

 

[truce]

4 minutes ago, Paulo said:

 

From https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/spain/Special-Exhibit-Features-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Imprisoned-for-Their-Conscience-in-Spain/

 

 

Never despise the day of small beginnings... 

[Tsheppar]

10 hours ago, RedRob said:

Governments can gain full access to any information that has been put up on the cloud, with a simple court order.  Most congregations are now using NW Publisher, and they would be able to access the databases storing information on all of us through that.  Also, most witnesses have indicated their religion on their census surveys.  Many witnesses also have instagram accounts full of witness related posts and links.  I fear, no matter how much we could hope, every one of us in the majority of the world could be identified instantly as witnesses.  Our only hope for protection from governments in times of persecution will be Jehovah, and that's the best protection. 

While this is an excellent point and you are exactly correct. I think this falls under proper infrastructure being in place. All the electric grids working good. All the computers servers working good ,no cyber attacks, healthy workers showing up to work to keep it all running. Financial  systems in good working  order... In a collapse situation, as a Tribulation that the world has never experienced - it may not be as easy for governments to get that info. Just sayin...its a possibility. 😅

[Floyd]

6 hours ago, Ishaya said:

I think the bible condemns tattoos in very clear terms, Lev 19:28.

with such clear directive from the bible I don't think the GB will for any reason approve tattoos.

 

We are not under the law anymore. Perhaps 1 Cor. 3:16, 17 would be better. We don't want to do anything that might disrespect our bodies.

[Tortuga]

11 hours ago, RedRob said:

Governments can gain full access to any information that has been put up on the cloud, with a simple court order.  Most congregations are now using NW Publisher, and they would be able to access the databases storing information on all of us through that.  Also, most witnesses have indicated their religion on their census surveys.  Many witnesses also have instagram accounts full of witness related posts and links.  I fear, no matter how much we could hope, every one of us in the majority of the world could be identified instantly as witnesses.  Our only hope for protection from governments in times of persecution will be Jehovah, and that's the best protection. 

Just to add to the list...

Our Contacts in our devices would show who we associate with and a cross match would identify the whole congregation.

Our doctors have copies of our AHCD/DPA

 

If Jehovah's Witnesses are legally declared to be illegal, there are many ways that we would be instantly identified. 

 

The GB Update about facial hair is public knowledge, there is no reason to think that wearing a beard will confuse the authorities during the GT.

[Jay D]

On 12/16/2023 at 9:09 AM, Jay D said:

This is an excellent update and the direction given was perfectly balanced.

Brothers, did you notice that brother Lett has encouraged us to neither rush ahead of the celestial chariot, nor lag behind?

 

In other words, in connection with asking those who have strong feelings to adjust, he's asking we accept the direction immediately, but implement it gradually. Of course, we're not going to be able to control the valid excitement of many who are looking forward to this direction, in fact we should welcome it. Rather, what is the motive of us quickly accepting direction? Is it just because we disagreed in the past and now feel "I was right" and then move ahead quickly, feeling vindicated? Or will us brothers on an individual basis slowly implement it in our own personal life if we choose to grow a beard? On the other hand, direction now to elder bodies considering brothers as elders and Ministerial Servants will be non negotiable, beards and similar personal matters that do not conflict with bible principles do noy prevent appointments. Instead, elders must look at spiritual qualities and see how these qualities are affecting himself, his family and others. Nothing should go beyond the requirements that's written, even though there should be a measure of caution, if a brother manifests fine qualities in all aspects of his life AND is working in the congregation, showing by how he carries his assignments how much he values the organisation, then what should hold elders back from appointing him? No doubt the Governing Body will continue to counsel elders to continue avoid basing their decisions for appointments on personal issues or grievances.

 

I must clarify my comment, I seemed to mistranslate the rushing ahead and lagging behind the Organization, this was in relation to how we viewed beards before the GB Update #8.

In order to keep pace now, we must now view beards as a personal decision and whether a brother chooses to wear one is effective immediately. Of course, in some congregations some may wait and see who starts growing one first and that's entirely up to them!! 

I just wanted to make the clarification in case my words are misinterpreted. Enjoy my brothers!

[Gimestr]

31 minutes ago, Jay D said:

 Of course, in some congregations some may wait and see who starts growing one first and that's entirely up to them!! 

I am waiting for some to grow it first.  We have 2 elders and 2 MS growing it as we speak.  I will be chairman in January, so I want to wait till then before I grow mines.  I don't want to be chair with a baby beard, so I will shave in the meantime.  Hopefully, by then the excitement will die down

 

[Brandon]

5 hours ago, Paulo said:

but I never really liked to wear a symbol of war, [ties]

Help me understand this?

[coolbrz731]

9 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Help me understand this?

The History of the Tie | R. Hanauer Bow Ties

 

Confirmed by also looking up ties in Wikipedia

[MontRose]

5 minutes ago, coolbrz731 said:

The History of the Tie | R. Hanauer Bow Ties

 

Confirmed by also looking up ties in Wikipedia

Someone called me out on this once.. and I didn't know what to say... Was kind of embarrassing to have to rely on "how people view it now" and then not apply that same train of thought to other things..