2025 GB Update #5 - Putting to rest issues on “Higher” Education

[OW90]

5 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Yep. And to make it worse,  reading the comments it seems that it was just our two halls that had this problem.  Beyond our two halls everyone had beards and a college education 

Yeah it seems that way. 🤦 I get you can't change the past and all of that but choices such as not pursuing higher education can have long lasting negative affects. I'm feeling those affects in very tangible ways. It's a struggle to make ends meet.

 

And yes, my situation is far from the worst, and i'm thankful to have stable employment. But my line of work cost me a lot in the way of my physical and mental health. There is no recompense for that. I just have to live with that for the forseeable future. 

 

I mind as well save my breath. I'm just gonna be told how i'm wrong...😞

[rocket]

I would think that going to College/University just for the four year party/sports experience would still be frowned on.  Motive has a lot to do with it. Our Congregation is in a University town and there have been many of the friends in the Congregation and also visiting friends who have attended the University.  But, they all have job goals in mind as reasons to attend.  One elder that works for the University had University classes required for his University job.  Others became teachers, nurses, teacher for the blind and other job skills.  They all put Jehovah first.

[Jwanon]

7 minutes ago, OW90 said:

Yeah it seems that way. 🤦 I get you can't change the past and all of that but choices such as not pursuing higher education can have long lasting negative affects. I'm feeling those affects in very tangible ways. It's a struggle to make ends meet.

 

And yes, my situation is far from the worst, and i'm thankful to have stable employment. But my line of work cost me a lot in the way of my physical and mental health. There is no recompense for that. I just have to live with that for the forseeable future. 

 

I mind as well save my breath. I'm just gonna be told how i'm wrong...😞

 

I apologize if I sounded dismissive

Edited Friday at 06:37 PM by Jwanon

[rocket]

College/ University education does not guarantee a better job or a better life.  The only guarantee is debt.  15 years ago my son went to a University for 4 years.  His 4 years and $40,000 later it gave him nothing.  He works for $20.00 an hour for FedEx running his tail off delivering packages.

[trottigy]

We all have made a LOT of sacrifices for our God, it would be shame for us to look back on a good sacrifice to Him and say, "I wish I gave him the lame sheep instead of the good one. The good one would have tasted better!"

 

I think of the sacrifices some gave to their false gods, including throwing their live baby in a fire to Molech or their teen to the god of war. They are often happy for their sacrifices - even if their child is killed or maimed in the process. Some even put a huge picture of their child in military attire to show how proud they are of what was sacrificed (PTSD be dammed). 

 

NOW, remember our sacrifices are to the TRUE GOD! We all should be happy with what we willfully gave.

 

EDIT - my wife and I did not "burn the baby up to Molech", but we did give Jehovah ALL of our babies - as we chose not to have children. We wanted to go to Bethel instead and we did - four years at Patterson. By the time we came home and were ready for children - it was really too late. That sacrifice of those children was our best and He accepted it and blessed us.

 

I am certain He is blessing all of you for your sacrifices!

Edited Friday at 06:41 PM by trottigy

[Israel]

2 minutes ago, rocket said:

College/ University education does not guarantee a better job or a better life.  The only guarantee is debt.  15 years ago my son went to a University for 4 years.  His 4 years and $40,000 later it gave him nothing.  He works for $20.00 an hour for FedEx running his tail off delivering packages.

It depends on what you study and where. In my country, you can look up the employability prediction of your career. Mine is 91%, which means I have a likelihood of 91% of getting a job in my field within the first year of the Degree. Additionally, the goverment pays for my career which means I incurr in no debt.

[navco]

27 minutes ago, rocket said:

College/ University education does not guarantee a better job or a better life.  The only guarantee is debt.  15 years ago my son went to a University for 4 years.  His 4 years and $40,000 later it gave him nothing.  He works for $20.00 an hour for FedEx running his tail off delivering packages.

right you see people college graduates on social media with tears in there eyes with no jobs crushing debt and no future and jobs they could have got with out a degree they are now making it harder to dischage your debt as well.Funny i was talking to someone at work how college is really a scam in a lot of ways and his response was it matters what degree you get my reponse to him if thats the case why are the other degrees are even a option if the chance of getting employment with it is very low? he couldnt respond.i went to techincal school for electronics graduated hated it and 4 28 years i have been a wastewater operator my college debt was discharged before they changed the rules.

Edited Friday at 07:04 PM by navco

[DakDak]

46 minutes ago, Landon1285 said:

 

 

I think this pre 2005 article was the most balanced in terms of education:

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992804

 

One of my favorite paragraphs:

 

*** w92 11/1 p. 18 par. 12 Education With a Purpose ***

12 A balanced view of education can help. For many young people of the world, education is a status symbol, something to help them climb the social ladder, the key to a prosperous, materialistic life-style. For others, schooling is a chore to be dispensed with as quickly as possible. Neither of these views is appropriate for true Christians. What, then, might be termed “a balanced view”? Christians should regard education as a means to an end. In these last days, their purpose is to serve Jehovah as much and as effectively as possible. If, in the country where they live, minimal or even high school education will only allow them to find jobs providing insufficient income to support themselves as pioneers, then supplementary education or training might be considered. This would be with the specific goal of full-time service.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1992804&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=18

 

The slave is trying to teach us to be balanced while preserving the unity in the Christian congregation.

You’re right, a balanced view is very important. And a vocational or trade school was never the issue. That same article continues in paragraphs 14 and 15 continues: “

¹⁴ In a few countries, secondary schools provide vocational training that can prepare a young Christian for some trade or occupation by the time of graduation. Even when this is not the case, in some lands enterprising youngsters with only basic schooling do find part-time work that enables them to earn enough to pioneer. So no hard-and-fast rules should be made either for or against extra education.

¹⁵ Many who are now serving in responsible positions as traveling overseers, at the Society’s headquarters, or in one of the branches had only basic education. They were faithful pioneers, never stopped learning, received training, and have been entrusted with greater responsibilities. They have no regrets. On the other hand, some of their contemporaries chose to get a university education and fell by the wayside, subjugated by the faith-destroying philosophies and “wisdom of this world.”—1 Corinthians 1:19-21; 3:19, 20; Colossians 2:8.

 

So vocational and trade schooling was actually encouraged. And was often suggested to try and do along side high school education which was offered in many places. Even the 2 year “associates degree” here in the US was as often not looked down on. As quoted in the 2005 article, it was the 4 year Bachelor degree or above programs that was considered “higher education” and that the GB strongly discouraged. 
 

I could be wrong, but it seems to be that even “higher education” (4 year degree of above) is now also considered a personal choice that local elders shouldn’t get involved with. 
 

This is definitely a positive change. Even though pursuing “higher education” didn’t automatically require a review of an appointed brothers qualification, if an appointed brother or someone in his household did pursue “higher education”, the elders were required to get together and consider those questions in the shepherd book to determine if a brother’s qualifications should be reviewed. Now it doesn’t seem like the elders should be involved at all unless a person begins to demonstrate spiritual weakness and the elders can encourage them through shepherding. Which I think is a VERY positive clarification. 

[trottigy]

2 minutes ago, DakDak said:

 

This is definitely a positive change. Even though pursuing “higher education” didn’t automatically require a review of an appointed brothers qualification, if an appointed brother or someone in his household did pursue “higher education”, the elders were required to get together and consider those questions in the shepherd book to determine if a brother’s qualifications should be reviewed. Now it doesn’t seem like the elders should be involved at all unless a person begins to demonstrate spiritual weakness and the elders can encourage them through shepherding. Which I think is a VERY positive clarification. 

 

I haven't seen any change in this requirement. Until the elders get specific direction to change - we should all still follow the direction we have in writing.

 

When we had the change related to "removed" vs "disfellowshipped" we got updated instructions. We follow those. 

 

So again, until we receive written instructions to do something different from the written instructions we already have - things should stay as they are.

[Áine]

I thought that the update was very clear and honestly I don’t feel that anything has changed, we have always had young ones who choose college and always tried to steer them towards doing a college course etc that would enable them to commute

 

 HOWEVER one thing I do know is that there are many well educated people with degrees etc working the checkouts at Walmart or Tesco… no amount of college these days will guarantee you a job. 

Edited Friday at 07:29 PM by Áine

[dannysharedstuff]

1 hour ago, OW90 said:

I get you can't change the past and all of that but choices such as not pursuing higher education can have long lasting negative affects. I'm feeling those affects in very tangible ways. It's a struggle to make ends meet.

 

 

I hear you brother, but we can argue the opposite as well. Are you sure if you did get higher education, you'd still be in the truth?

Take as an example a couple from my congregation. They have been loyal in the truth. They have 3 sons and 1 daughter. Very intelligent and smart people, with great school grades... they all chose to go to the university. Guess where they are now... 

 

Again, I'm not against a person getting any kind of higher education. but we can be looking to the past regarding our choices, specially regarding what we accomplished in Jehovah's service. If we keep looking back, might as well think about "what if Adam didn't sin"...

Edited Friday at 07:31 PM by dannysharedstuff

[Buckeye]

Im just frustrated and im sorry to everyone for sounding mean if i did.  It’s hard being told it wasn’t a rule when it was for me and so many in my circuit, or to be told college just brings debt or some can’t find a job anyways.  It wasn’t a hard sacrifice to make and I was happy to do it for Jehovah, but now it feels like that sacrifice wasn’t for Jehovah at all. 
 

And for the friends on here to tell me that my sacrifice wasn’t necessary in their neck of the woods is just upsetting because I will now struggle to make it for the rest of my life 

[LeolaRootStew]

 

31 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Thanks for the words. It is hard for me to accept that these brothers can apparently make up so many rules like beards and school, when there was never anything wrong with them.  Not going to school limits me every day now and it will for the rest of my time on earth.  Let me know if you all are celebrating birthdays and allowed to have long hair on a guy so i can too.  My elders don’t allow those things either but now i don’t know what’s an unwritten rule and what’s frowned upon and what’s an actual rule.

 

I get that you are frustrated and I can assure you you are not the only one who was given the impression that all higher education was wrong, but let's not go to the other extreme and start envying the world.

 

Whenever something came up in school that I couldn't do because of my religion I researched it so I could explain it myself - that is how I know I did the right thing and why I have nothing to regret about my stance.

 

When I learned that beards were forbidden in my area I looked into and discovered that it was because it associated us with the hippie era, not because it was a law in the Bible. Because I understood the principle behind the prohibition, I would not have been stumbled by seeing Brothers in other countries sporting beards.

 

I can apply that same logic to the topic of long hair and know that it would be inappropriate for a brother to have long hair in my culture because it would be viewed as worldy and have the same problem of association as beards used to. Even if it became acceptable someday for men to have long hair (I can dream), I can easily reason that it is wrong here and now. Is that true for your area?

 

As far as birthdays, you can know it's not a local prohibition because it is clearly stated on our website as wrong for Christians, with no gray area. I get that this is probably "wild talk" and not a serious attempt to celebrate birthdays, but the principle still applies.

 

You can apply this pattern of research to any topic that comes up. Is it mentioned in the literature? Is it specifically banned or just cautioned against? The Update on toasting mentioned 3 principles:

 

-How does Jehovah feel about it?

-How does my congregation feel about it?

-How does my community feel about it?

 

Now if either of us had done in-depth research about higher education when we were teenagers (which was harder before the website, so no judgement), we probably would have seen many of the articles others have posted on this forum showing that the GB has never banned higher education, just cautioned about the dangers. You could have presented your research to the elders and made a personal decision whether they agreed with you or not. If they didn't agree you could have written to the Branch and they would have informed the entire elder body that they were wrong. 

 

I know I have given a lot of blind trust to elders before and those days are long behind me - we stand before Jehovah alone. I research everything I can think of, and these situations prove to me how important it is to know why I take every stance that I do.

 

The good news for having this feeling of being let down is that you are the solution. Research everything. Don't rely on anyone else to give you rules without reasons. Let this fuel your self-accountability, and please don't let it burn you out. 💜

[Buckeye]

6 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I know I have given a lot of blind trust to elders before and those days are long behind me - we stand before Jehovah alone. I research everything I can think of, and these situations prove to me how important it is to know why I take every stance that I do.

 

The good news for having this feeling of being let down is that you are the solution. Research everything. Don't rely on anyone else to give you rules without reasons. Let this fuel your self-accountability, and please don't let it burn you out. 💜

Thank you for saying this. It brought tears to my eyes.  I know others might not get why today’s update was a big deal, but it is for me. And the sad thing is I always knew deep down that Jehovah didn’t care if I went or not just like he didn’t care about beards.  

[DakDak]

47 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

I haven't seen any change in this requirement. Until the elders get specific direction to change - we should all still follow the direction we have in writing.

 

When we had the change related to "removed" vs "disfellowshipped" we got updated instructions. We follow those. 

 

So again, until we receive written instructions to do something different from the written instructions we already have - things should stay as they are.

You’re absolutely right. I refer you back to my first comment on this post where I wrote: “So I do wonder if us elders are going to get a letter with additional instructions about this matter.”

[OW90]

11 minutes ago, dannysharedstuff said:

 

I hear you brother, but we can argue the opposite as well. Are you sure if you did get higher education, you'd still be in the truth?

Take as an example a couple from my congregation. They have been loyal in the truth. They have 3 sons and 1 daughter. Very intelligent and smart people, with great school grades... they all chose to go to the university. Guess where they are now... 

 

Again, I'm not against a person getting any kind of higher education. but we can be looking to the past regarding our choices, specially regarding what we accomplished in Jehovah's service. If we keep looking back, might as well think about "what if Adam didn't sin"...

That would be my choice ultimately. Same then as it is now. But what i wasn't given a fair shake on was going to college. I'm not saying it would be the end all be all, but i might have been spared alot of grief. It is what it is.

[Qapla]

2 hours ago, OW90 said:

I get you can't change the past and all of that but choices such as not pursuing higher education can have long lasting negative affects. I'm feeling those affects in very tangible ways. It's a struggle to make ends meet.

 

I live where there is a major university ... currently the 5th largest by enrollment in the US ... however, I chose not to attend when I graduated from high school.

 

3 hours ago, Dark King said:

If I had a kid or kids with extremely high IQs, I would tell my wife we're moving closer to Harvard, Yale or Princeton

 

When I didn't enroll in any college, I got letters from Harvard, Yale, Princeton and several other highly Prestigeous schools inviting me to enroll. I even had a fairly guaranteed offer to attend Annapolis where all expenses would be paid. And, yes, I had the grades and aptitude to attend those schools

 

However, I chose to regular pioneer. I worked for a while at a pizza place with college students who were all chasing degrees. They often got sidetracked with social issues and were chalking up substantial debt even though they had scholarships. Only a handful of them got jobs in their field of study.

 

That was more than 50 years ago. In the meantime, some of those have since died so they are not benefitting from their degree. Some of them have retired and are facing physical and mental issues due to the stress and lifestyle that went with their lives.

 

For me - yes, I have had to work hard doing physical jobs to make a living. That said, let me list some things:

• I have raised 4 daughters all still serving Jehovah as is my granddaughter
• I have had opportunities for Jehovah no degree would have helped with
  • I pioneered
  • I played in the orchestra at CA and DC until it was discontinued
  • I worked sound at congregation, circuit and district level
  • I have helped build more KH's than I can remember
  • I helped build two Circuit Assembly Halls
  • I was on the ground floor helping to develop the Watchtower.org website before it was ever released
  • I helped develop the video procedures we now use at assemblies and conventions
  • I helped build WHQ in Warwick
  • Served in the congregation
• Since I worked various jobs and KH projects I can also
  • do electrical work that passes inspection
  • do plumbing work that passes inspection
  • build a house from the ground up
  • install flooring and wallpaper
  • install and repair irrigation
  • work on well pumps
  • repair my own vehicle including rebuilding the motor
  • I have a Bethel forklift license
  • I can operate several types of heavy equipment

I'm sure there are many other things I have done and can do that are not on these lists. Did I maybe struggle at times to make ends meet? Sure. But, living in a college town, I can tell you equivocally, I have not struggled any more than the majority of those who have passed through this area getting a degree since most never get a job in their field of study and cannot do all the things I can do.

 

I am now in my 70's and can still do what needs doing. A vast majority of those I graduated high school with who were not serving Jehovah and pursued education have either died or have severe medical issues ... and they never did develop a relationship with Jehovah - and I graduated in a class of 1,000 people.

 

Do I consider my sacrifice in vain or look sadly at it? Do I even consider my not going to college a "sacrifice"?

 

NO!

 

Edited Friday at 09:29 PM by Qapla

[Andress]

1 hour ago, lord21 said:

Tattooing is directly related to the use of blood. This is a very dangerous procedure. The one who does the tattoo can become infected with blood diseases. But even if he does not get infected, after a while the person will not want to have this tattoo, because the mind and thoughts change with age. And the removal of the tattoo is also associated with the use of blood.

i am not sure this is a biblical principal to fully apply. Anyhow, my understanding as an elder has always been, regarding tatoos;

 

 Pleae read;

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/bible-say-about-tattoos/

the principles behind is focusing on ”why do you do this, what is the purpose”… but not forbidden, but if you are not carefull you could regret it or depending on where you put it your reputation could be affected. It it is your own choice at the end. For ex. If you put a dragon in your neck, for sure everyone will see it and not a wise decision of symbol. So most likely no priveligee for a while. If you put a small flower on your ankle.

Most likely nothing to bother about.

 

 

[trottigy]

6 minutes ago, DakDak said:

You’re absolutely right. I refer you back to my first comment on this post where I wrote: “So I do wonder if us elders are going to get a letter with additional instructions about this matter.”

 

If we do get updated instructions - I am sure that fact that we got them will be shared.

 

HOPEFULLY, NO ONE who gets them will share confidential information. 

[Ludwika]

Just adding to what has already been said, there's always been options for education other than going to university as well. I did real estate law at branch manager level with the open university, my eldest granddaughter did a librarian course through correspondence and now works for the National Library in Wellington, all without huge student debts. 

In some countries, many former colleges and academies were moved up to university status, but while it costs a great deal to attend, the degrees they offer are subpar, hardly worth the paper they're written on, leading nowhere. My sister in law took one of these, something to do with media studies, and it brought her nothing but a debt that took her years to pay off. Kids are conned into thinking it will secure their future in a "glamorous" industry.

It's never too late to improve your skills and knowledge anyway. If you turned down the opportunity to go to university for balanced spiritual reasons, what's to stop you getting a diploma through correspondence, night school, or asking if your employer has any courses you can do? Here, some firms will be eager to advance their employees who show some initiative. 

And at the end of the day, did you do the right thing in refusing a university placement? We've seen many young ones in the congregations here who go off to university, begin well spiritually, but within a few months they've drifted away from the meetings. If you don't live in a university town and you have to live away from home, it's a very difficult environment for a young Christian.

Can it be done? Of course, we all know those who've succeeded, but they will tell you it wasn't easy. But then, no choice, no matter what it is, is easy in Satan's system.

When the GT begins, will we be looking back and wishing we'd made different choices, or will we be looking forward, knowing we're almost home? 

[TheKid23]

41 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

I haven't seen any change in this requirement. Until the elders get specific direction to change - we should all still follow the direction we have in writing.

 

When we had the change related to "removed" vs "disfellowshipped" we got updated instructions. We follow those. 

 

So again, until we receive written instructions to do something different from the written instructions we already have - things should stay as they are.

“Do not go beyond the things that are written” 1 Cor 4:6- Jehovah has always asked us to follow what he says in His word, not to make extra rules or guidance. Sadly from some comments it’s seems some have made their own standards or rules and it can leave us confused or even hurt. 
 

A good friend and Elder always says to me when I feel annoyed or upset about injustice “Jehovah allows it for a reason” we have to trust in this and think he sees the bigger purpose, He knows all the whys. He sees our obedience even when we feel unsure & values us remaining loyal to him. 
 

My favourite Theocratic song is number 38 He Will Make You Strong, the line “He won’t forget the faith and love you’ve shown; He will not fail to care for all His own.” Really touches me every time I sing or hear it. It’s our faith, love and obedience that Jehovah looks for- not if we’re right about beards being allowed or toasting, or whatever other clarifications we get over the next months and years- being right won’t necessarily get us to everlasting life, but all those qualities will. 
 

So for those struggling with these updates, I feel you and I also struggle with change. But try to get Jehovahs view, not focus on the errors if imperfect men. It’s not easy, but it’s worth it!

[computerwiz]

12 minutes ago, DakDak said:

“So I do wonder if us elders are going to get a letter with additional instructions about this matter.”

 

We are supposed to be getting an update to our book next month.  If I remember correctly...

I will bet this is part of it.

[OW90]

7 minutes ago, Qapla said:

 

I live where there is a major university ... currently the 5th largest by enrollment in the US ... however, I chose not to attend when I graduated from high school.

 

 

When I didn't enroll in any college, I got letters from Harvard, Yale, Princeton and several other highly Prestigeous schools inviting me to enroll. I even had a fairly guaranteed offer to attend Annapolis where all expenses would be paid. And, yes, I had the grades and aptitude to attend those schools

 

However, I chose to regular pioneer. I worked for a while at a pizza place with college students who were all chasing degrees. They often got sidetracked with social issues and were chalking up substantial debt even though they had scholarships. Only a handful of them got jobs in their field of study.

 

That was more than 50 years ago. In the meantime, some of those have since died so they are not benefitting from their degree. Some of them have retired and are facing physical and mental issues due to the stress and lifestyle that went with their lives.

 

For me - yes, I have had to work hard doing physical jobs to make a living. That said, let me list some things:

• I have raised 4 daughters all still serving Jehovah as is my granddaughter
• I have had opportunities for Jehovah no degree would have helped with
  • I pioneered
  • I played in the orchestra at CA and DC until it was discontinued
  • I worked sound at congregation, circuit and district level
  • I have helped build more KH's than I can remember
  • I helped build two Circuit Assembly Halls
  • I was on the ground floor helping to develop the Watchtower.org website before it was ever released
  • I helped develop the video procedures we now use at assemblies and conventions
  • I helped build WHQ in Warwick
  • Served in the congregation
• Since I worked various jobs and KH projects I can also
  • do electrical work that passes inspection
  • do plumbing work that passes inspection
  • build a house from the ground up
  • install flooring and wallpaper
  • install and repair irrigation
  • work on well pumps
  • repair my own vehicle including rebuilding the motor

I'm sure there are many other things I have done and can do that are not on these lists. Did I maybe struggle at times to make ends meet? Sure. But, living in a college town, I can tell you equivocally, I have not struggled any more than the majority of those who have passed through this area getting a degree since most never get a job in their field of study and cannot do all the things I can do.

 

I am now in my 70's and can still do what needs doing. A vast majority of those I graduated high school with who were not serving Jehovah and pursued education have either died or have severe medical issues ... and they never did develop a relationship with Jehovah - and I graduated in a class of 1,000 people.

 

Do I consider my sacrifice in vain or look sadly at it? Do I even consider my not going to college a "sacrifice"?

 

NO!

 

Good for you. I'm glad it worked out for you. 👍 

 

But what i said is just as relevant as what you said.

[computerwiz]

PS - We won't have to worry about degrees now anyways.....we can just talk to AI now and it will tell us how to do our jobs!!  

 

[YayaMichelle]

Just watched the GB Update talk by Bro. Splane.  “Higher” education is now termed as “additional” education.

 

The update seems to be answering (and corrected) ALL the raised questions/concerns related in this forum.. and more.

 

what an amazing & loving Father we have listening and answering all our concerns!

 

and the timing is now when university opens this week with probably hundreds or brothers and sisters who may be feeling some sort of guilt over it

 

just saying