Is it proper to use the term "orientals" when referring to asian people?

[Tyrrha]

I was told that it is improper to use the term "orientals" when referring to people of east asian countries. The person who told me this was not asian. So I looked up Job 1:3 in the latest NWT and it now says "people of the East".

 

Does anyone know if this term "oriental" is offensive? ( I have stopped using it, just in case. )

 

[Bek]

Orientals in the biblical context simply means someone from the East or literally from where the sun rises.

 

When it comes to its use in our times, I have heard it used only in the context of old scientific literature or old films about colonisers of Asian lands. It basically meant Asians. These days, Asians means anyone from Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Uzbeks, Mongols to Chinese, Japanese and many others in between. 

 

By the way, the opposite of orientals is occidentals. :-)

Edited December 24, 2018 by Bek

[jwhess]

We had a previous thread that thoroughly researched this point.  Here is a clip from one of my comments.

 

According to the original use of the term “Oriental” it did not mean China or Japan.  It was a term referring to “East” side of the Mediterranean.  Oriental was a Latin word meaning East and Occidental was the Latin word meaning West.  If you look at the maps of the Roman Empire you can see that oriental was on the east side of the great sea in near-east Asia.  So being the “greatest of the Orientals” just referred to Asia.

 

This is an excerpt from the encyclopedia:

 

The Orient is the East, traditionally comprising anything that belongs to the Eastern world, in relation to Europe. In English, it is largely a metonym for, and coterminous with, the continent of Asia, divided into the Near East, Middle East and Far East. Originally, the term Orient was used to designate the Near East, and later its meaning evolved and expanded, designating also the Middle East or the Far East.

 

The term "Orient" derives from the Latin word oriens meaning "east" (lit. "rising" < orior " rise"). The use of the word for "rising" to refer to the east (where the sun rises) has analogs from many languages:

…

Another explanation of the term stems from Rome during the Roman Empire, specifically the Eastern Roman Empire, or the "Roman Orient", during the Byzantine Empire. Although the original East-West (or Orient-Occident) line was the Italian Peninsula's East Coast, around 600 …

…

The opposite term "Occident" derives from the Latin word occidens, meaning west (lit. setting < occido fall/set). This term meant the west (where the sun sets) but has fallen into disuse in English, in favor of "Western world".

 

[Tyrrha]

Thank you.

 

I did this research also. But there are many terms that have a valid definition in the dictionary or encyclopedia, but are still not acceptable to use in certain contexts. 

 

I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be offending anyone by using the term in that way. I'm sure the society had reasons for not using it at Job 1:3 anymore, but it might have nothing to do with not wanting to offend anyone. But, I couldn't find any information on this.

 

That's why I asked.

[Qapla]

In these last days you can be sure that almost any term that has been traditionally used is offensive to someone - that is the world we live in.

 

There are even people who think we should not use words like "human, people, male, female" ... not sure what they think we should use

[Bek]

26 minutes ago, Tyrrha said:

I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be offending anyone by using the term in that way. I'm sure the society had reasons for not using it at Job 1:3 anymore, but it might have nothing to do with not wanting to offend anyone. But, I couldn't find any information on this.

 

 

It is an outdated term. Some people think it is offensive because it is to do with the times when Asians were colonised, subjugated and seen as inferior by Europeans. 

 

"Erika Lee, director of the Immigration History Research Center at the University of Minnesota, told NBC News that terms like “Orientals” and “Oriental Americans” were used in a time when Asia and Asian peoples were thought of as “backward, inferior, exotic, and foreign in order to justify colonization and subjugation.”

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-francesa-oriental_us_59495b61e4b07d3e35d8b58f

 

Here is another report about a wealthy Chinese lady who takes offence at the term: 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40714775/reality-star-dorothy-wang-dont-call-me-oriental

 

In short, it is a loaded term with some negative baggage from the European colonisation of Asian lands.  

 

I think it might be OK to use the term to describe objects from Asia, but I would refrain from calling someone an oriental just to be on the safe side. 

 

Why do you think the term Asian is not good enough? 

 

Some institutions are changing their names because "oriental" is "outdated and racist"

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07396-9

 

For more info, please google "oriental offensive" and you will see many items. 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Bek

[jwhess]

1 hour ago, Tyrrha said:

Thank you.

 

I did this research also. But there are many terms that have a valid definition in the dictionary or encyclopedia, but are still not acceptable to use in certain contexts. 

 

I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be offending anyone by using the term in that way. I'm sure the society had reasons for not using it at Job 1:3 anymore, but it might have nothing to do with not wanting to offend anyone. But, I couldn't find any information on this.

 

That's why I asked.

Sr. Tyrrha, we don't want to offend but the Bible was written in a different time.  Since the Romans and other ancient people considered the Asian continent to be "East" of their location, they called it "East" toward the rising sun or Oriental.  It is a made-up judgement based on the writers location. 

 

The Hebrew Scriptures used the word QEDMAH which means east, eastward, eastern, east side or east part.  Job was called the greatest of all of the "Sons of the East" (Hebrew Interlinear Bible by J. Green).

 

So in Latin he would be called Oriental or an Easterner.

[Tyrrha]

So, you are saying that the translation committee wanted to avoid using a less-understood Latin term “oriental”?

 

And so instead, used a simpler English phrase “people of the east”?

 

And, I never said the term ‘Asian’ is not good enough! I just want to avoid using any terms that might offend! 

 

Sorry I even asked. I didn’t know I would be subjected to such ridicule and insinuations.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Tyrrha

[Ahuvah]

They have done that to many words - so the real meaning is conveyed to a wider variety of people. One of the notable changes was 'bread' - that is sometimes translated as 'food' to correctly convey the meaning of the importance of staples in our diet - some countries see bread as something they can't afford and see rice as a staple. 

 

Other reason for simplifying words too is that we need to speak to this generation ... we need to get to their hearts if we use words that they don't relate to or understand then the meaning of the original word is lost anyway ... so as long as the original meaning stays in tact - any term is apt.

[boodles]

17 minutes ago, Tyrrha said:

So, you are saying that the translation committee wanted to avoid using a less-understood Latin term “oriental”?

 

And so instead, used a simpler English phrase “people of the east”?

 

And, I never said the term ‘Asian’ is not good enough! I just want to avoid using any terms that might offend! 

 

Sorry I even asked. I didn’t know I would be subjected to such ridicule and insinuations.

Actually it was a great question, and I'm glad you asked it because I had no idea it could be considered offensive. The variety of answers and viewpoints are enlightening. And remember, we can't hear/get tone of voice in posts, usually no one's trying to be rude. 😎

 

 

[Bek]

53 minutes ago, Tyrrha said:

So, you are saying that the translation committee wanted to avoid using a less-understood Latin term “oriental”?

 

And so instead, used a simpler English phrase “people of the east”?

 

And, I never said the term ‘Asian’ is not good enough! I just want to avoid using any terms that might offend! 

 

Sorry I even asked. I didn’t know I would be subjected to such ridicule and insinuations.

I don't really know why the translation committee dropped the word. We can only speculate. One of the reasons might be about avoiding to offend anyone. Another reason might be about, as you say, it being less-understood and even confusing. In contrast, "people of the east" is simple and very clear. For example, the word oriental in many languages means Eastern or an Easterner if is to do with people. 

 

I did not mean to ridicule you or insinuate about anything. I am sorry if my words came across like that. I was just trying to help you. 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Bek

[Qapla]

It seems odd that you can't call a person from the eastern region of Asia that is serving food in a store that has a sign on the building that says "Oriental Restaurant" an Oriental

 

But then, when I was young, a person who was "gay" was happy ... it was not an "orientation"

[Hope]

45 minutes ago, Qapla said:

It seems odd that you can't call a person from the eastern region of Asia that is serving food in a store that has a sign on the building that says "Oriental Restaurant" an Oriental

 

But then, when I was young, a person who was "gay" was happy ... it was not an "orientation"

Oriental now properly refers to things... rugs, decor, food.  Not to people. 

 

It is as outdated and probably as offensive as referring to Black people in the US as negro or colored.  It's just not done anymore. 

[vern]

job was "oriental"  as east; he lived in midian. not to far east.

he was not.not "asian"

[Beggar for the Spirit]

Hi Tyrrha,

 

I think this was a good topic you started, like you, none of us want to accidentally offend others. As Christians we do our best to avoid insulting anyone, so thank you for starting the topic. 

And I wanted to add that I don't believe that Brother Nurzat was trying to say anything negative toward you, he was just trying to help, he even tried helping you by researching to see if he could find some articles that spoke about "orientals" being an offensive term. And he also apologized. Please forgive us, we sometimes write things on our posts that are sincere questions or we are just trying to express something but it sounds strange to some or appears to be a negative remark. But Brother Nurzat is a nice brother. 

 

Ok, so to your good question about whether we should use this term "orientals". My initial thoughts were that I had never heard of this being a negative or offensive term. But that it doesn't really matter what I think, it only matters if others are hurt/offended. So here is a very interesting article that came out in the LA Times just a few years ago. The writer of the article says that she considers herself "oriental" but she provides some interesting information showing how even the government is trying avoid using this word so as not to offend others. She doesn't understand why some would be offended by "orientals", her article is interesting. Here is part of her article with a link:

 

  https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tsuchiyama-oriental-insult-20160601-snap-story.html

Quote

The term 'Oriental' is outdated, but is it racist?

By JAYNE TSUCHIYAMA  JUN 01, 2016

It is now politically incorrect to use the word "Oriental," and the admonition has the force of law: President Obama recently signed a bill prohibiting use of the term in all federal documents. Rep. Grace Meng, the New York congresswoman who sponsored the legislation, exulted that "at long last this insulting and outdated term will be gone for good."

 

As an Oriental, I am bemused. Apparently Asians are supposed to feel demeaned if someone refers to us as Orientals. But good luck finding a single Asian American who has ever had the word spat at them in anger. Most Asian Americans have had racist epithets hurled at them at one time or another: Chink, slant eye, gook, Nip, zipperhead. But Oriental isn't in the canon.

And why should it be? Literally, it means of the Orient or of the East, as opposed to of the Occident or of the West. Last I checked, geographic origin is not a slur. If it were, it would be wrong to label people from Mississippi as Southerners.

 

Of course I understand that some insults have benign origins. "Jap," for example, is simply a shortening of the word Japanese, but that one stings. As 127,000 Japanese Americans were carted off to internment camps during World War II, they were repeatedly referred to by their fellow citizens and the media as Japs. It was meant as an insult and understood as such. Clearly context is important.

 

I see self-righteous, fragile egos eager to find offense where none is intended. A wave of anti-Oriental discrimination is not sweeping the country. Besides, the term has been steadily falling out of circulation since the 1950s, and it's mainly used today by older Asians and the proprietors of hundreds if not thousands of restaurants, hotels, shops and organizations with Oriental in their name. The well-intentioned meddlers will create trouble for exactly the population they want to defend.

My profession, Oriental medicine, is among those on the receiving end of the identity-politics outbreak. A funny thing I noticed is that my Caucasian (dare I say Occidental?) colleagues, not my Asian colleagues, are most eager to remove Oriental from public discourse. I suppose they're busy shouldering their burden of guilt. 

In my field, the word "Oriental" appears in the title of 17 of the 58 accredited graduate-level schools, 21 of the 33 state associations and eight of the 24 national associations. Though the new federal legislation does not require us to act, it has increased pressure to toe the politically correct line.

Are we really going to waste time, energy and millions of dollars to rebrand our entire discipline — rename our schools and boards, redesign corporate identities, websites and publications and send out thousands of revised diplomas — all to wipe away an insult that doesn't exist?

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Beggar for the Spirit

[jwhess]

Another reason for change in terms might be that the King James, the American Standard and Byington's Translation (all of which we print)  use that term "east".  Only our older NWT used "oriental".  Probably easier to translate also.

[carlos]

I have no idea whether the term "orientals" to refer to Asian people is now considered offensive. Others have given good comments on that. But I think I know the answer to the question why that word was replaced in the translation of Job 1:3.

 

People from different periods or places understand words differently. When the NWT1983 said that Job "came to be the greatest of all the Orientals [footnote: Lit., “sons of the East.”]" it meant that Job was the richest and most powerful man in Arabia, which was to the East of Israel. But today, an American reading that scripture would understand that Job was Asian, that is, that he was Chinese or Japanese or Korean. At the same time, a British reading the same scripture would understand that Job was from Pakistan or India or Bangladesh. Obviously "oriental" is not the best word today to define someone from Arabia.

 

So the NWT2013 preferred to remove the confusion and instead translate literally that Job "became the greatest of all the people of the East".

 

3 hours ago, Tyrrha said:

Sorry I even asked. I didn’t know I would be subjected to such ridicule and insinuations. 

Don't take it to heart, Tyrrha. Nobody here is ridiculing you. It's often easy to misinterpret the tone of some comment when you can't hear the voice of the speaker.

[hatcheckgirl]

Thank you to all who have enlightened me on this subject, as I too had no idea the word could be offensive.  Just think though, who of us ever use the word "Oriental" when talking about people? Seems quite archaic and not in general use when speaking of people. It's only, as Hope pointed out, to do with things - "oriental rugs", "oriental artifacts".  It does bring to mind an exotic past, and yes also the colonial past.  So the reason of its offence, in the world's point of view, is its connection to the colonisation and subjugation of Asian nations.  As for the translation of Job 1:3, it certainly is a lot clearer to readers now.  I remember when I was first was learning the truth, that verse did make me think of him possibly being Asian, maybe from the Far East.  Much better translation now.

 

The word for Indigenous Australian has changed as well, from "Aborigine" to "Aboriginal".  One is offensive (tied to colonialism) and the other describes their race.  Language changes all the time, as the world looks to "fix" their mistakes from the past - but it's all window dressing after all.

[Shawnster]

14 hours ago, Tyrrha said:

I was told that it is improper to use the term "orientals" when referring to people of east asian countries. The person who told me this was not asian. So I looked up Job 1:3 in the latest NWT and it now says "people of the East".

 

Does anyone know if this term "oriental" is offensive? ( I have stopped using it, just in case. )

 

All terms are inoffensive until they change. 

 

All these words that are offensive now used to be acceptable even among those particular ethnic groups. 

 

The flip side is also true.  Some terms that used to be offensive are now accepted. 

[Qapla]

4 hours ago, Hope said:

Oriental now properly refers to things... rugs, decor, food.  Not to people. 

 

It is as outdated and probably as offensive as referring to Black people in the US as negro or colored.  It's just not done anymore. 

 

And yet, the NAACP has never changed their name ...

 

Just goes to show why we need the Kingdom - these types of changing words and their meanings and/or connotations will most likely not be a problem in the New System

 

Won't it be nice when we have true "freedom of speech" because all speech will be up-building and correct  instead of demeaning and political

[Hope]

12 hours ago, Qapla said:

 

And yet, the NAACP has never changed their name ...

 

Just goes to show why we need the Kingdom - these types of changing words and their meanings and/or connotations will most likely not be a problem in the New System

 

Won't it be nice when we have true "freedom of speech" because all speech will be up-building and correct  instead of demeaning and political

Point taken. 😎  However, the NAACP organization itself is still a thing. It's not referring to people.  If you can note the difference..

[Vinnie]

18 hours ago, Tyrrha said:

So, you are saying that the translation committee wanted to avoid using a less-understood Latin term “oriental”?

And so instead, used a simpler English phrase “people of the east”?

And, I never said the term ‘Asian’ is not good enough! I just want to avoid using any terms that might offend! 

Sorry I even asked. I didn’t know I would be subjected to such ridicule and insinuations.

No, please don't think we are criticizing what you asked about in any way. It's good that you asked this. I wasn't sure about it myself. But everyone puts in their thoughts to try to cover the topic from one end to the other and it allows you to make a wise decision. It gives us all food for thought.