Death by circumcisian in Italy

[kejedo]

https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/infant-boy-italy-dies-home-circumcision-62135435

 

[Brother_Bliss]

Boy was 4 years old. How sad. How strange as well. 

 

Parents, don't try this at home!

[carlos]

This is very sad.

 

Circumcision is a fairly safe surgery if done by a professional and with the right conditions of cleanness. The problem is when people do it at home, without proper conditions or tools and by someone without any expertise.

[tekmantwo]

2 hours ago, Dismal_Bliss said:

Boy was 4 years old. How sad. How strange as well. 

 

Parents, don't try this at home!

You may be confused a little bit here...

 

The article is about the boys in Italy that died as a result of their circumcision, the video is about a court case, here in the US, involving a 4 year old boy. 

 

The 4 year old boys father wants him circumcised, his mother does not.

[kejedo]

The two deaths were 5 months old and two years old.

[JennyM]

1 hour ago, kejedo said:

The two deaths were 5 months old and two years old.

Israelites did it 8 days after being born. If my memory is right. 

My cousin almost died of circumcision when he was 12 years old. 

 So my brother was afraid and postponed circumcision until in his 20's   .. He went to the doctor and no trouble. . 😉

[Sheep]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

This is very sad.

 

Circumcision is a fairly safe surgery if done by a professional and with the right conditions of cleanness. The problem is when people do it at home, without proper conditions or tools and by someone without any expertise.

Hhmm. I'm confused. It says in Insight that circumcision was usually performed by the head of the house. Wouldn't that have been done "at home, without proper conditions or tools and by someone without any expertise"? Okay, that same paragraph says someone else who had been "trained for this operation was used." Maybe I haven't looked far enough yet, but where did the 'training' come from? I don't think Jehovah gave the Israelites extensive medical details on how to safely perform the operation.

 

Or, am I completely off-base with this?

[Jeanie]

I had both of my boys circumcised at the hospital after their birth.  I just assumed it was done that way all around the world.  It is sad that some parents have resorted to do this at home due to cost or finding a doctor that will perform the surgery.   

[kejedo]

Forget the MOyel, have a Goil

[carlos]

17 hours ago, Sheep said:

Hhmm. I'm confused. It says in Insight that circumcision was usually performed by the head of the house. Wouldn't that have been done "at home, without proper conditions or tools and by someone without any expertise"? Okay, that same paragraph says someone else who had been "trained for this operation was used." Maybe I haven't looked far enough yet, but where did the 'training' come from? I don't think Jehovah gave the Israelites extensive medical details on how to safely perform the operation.

Well, I guess in Israel there were people with a knowledge of surgery, even if it was very basic compared to our modern standards. Jesus said that sick people should go to the doctor. That doctor would know how to take out a teeth, amputate a limb or cut off a foreskin.

 

Actually circumcision is not a difficult operation at all. It only requires a small cut to remove some skin. Recovery may be painful, but it's easier than, for example, taking your tonsils out. Millions of children are circumcized every year for religious reasons, and millions of other children and young ones are circumcized for medical reasons because they suffer from phimosis.

 

There's no reason why this operation would have to be dangerous in Israel. They only had to use a sharp and clean knife and then disinfect the wound. The problem with that family in Italy is that they lived in a place with very poor sanitary and hygiene conditions. Such a delicate wound can get easily infected in those conditions.

[Bek]

I remember as a kid that circumcisions in Central Asia, especially in rural areas, were always performed by a respected elder who did not have any medical training or even school education. He would use his pen knife to remove the foreskin and then put ash on the wound. That's how it was always done until the late 1990s, but now people get circumcised in hospitals. There are probably some who still do it the old way. 

 

I believe it was the same in ancient times in Israel and later in the Muslim Middle East. 

 

Personally I have never heard of someone dying because of a botched circumcision at home. There was one case a few years ago where a trained doctor operated on a boy at his home and did something wrong that led to complications. It later turned out that the doctor was drunk when did the surgery. 

[stargazer]

I would never want to do this for my son. If Jehovah created it that way let it be! Good hygiene is all what matters.

 

 

[Bek]

2 hours ago, stargazer said:

I would never want to do this for my son. If Jehovah created it that way let it be! Good hygiene is all what matters.

 

 

Muslims and Jews practise circumcision for religious reasons. As I understand, quite a large number of people in the US have it too for practical reasons. There is also some US medical research on circumcision having many health benefits. 

 

I remember when I was circumcised, I think, I was 4 or 5 years old. It was not painful because it was done under general anesthesia at a hospital. Circumcision is a big event in the life of boys in Central Asia because all relatives come and give presents to them.

 

 

[Qapla]

10 hours ago, stargazer said:

I would never want to do this for my son. If Jehovah created it that way let it be! Good hygiene is all what matters.

 

 

And, yet, it was Jehovah who required it of the nation of Israel.

[kejedo]

Some potentially interesting info on the "uncut" movement: https://splinternews.com/inside-the-anti-circumcision-movement-these-blood-soak-1793861318

[Qapla]

Splinter News

Quote

The site is a news and opinion website ...  the site's purpose is to offer a sharp point of view, amplify underrepresented voices, shine a light on systemic inequality, and skewer politicians ... They are generally described as having a left-leaning editorial stance. 

 

[carlos]

 

22 hours ago, stargazer said:

I would never want to do this for my son. If Jehovah created it that way let it be! Good hygiene is all what matters.

12 hours ago, Qapla said:

And, yet, it was Jehovah who required it of the nation of Israel.

Sure. The same as animal sacrifices or stoning adulterers.

 

Since we are no longer under the old covenant, there's no reason to circumcize children now.

[Thesauron]

 
Sure. The same as animal sacrifices or stoning adulterers.
 
Since we are no longer under the old covenant, there's no reason to circumcize children now.

That’s true. Today it’s just another unnecessary medical surgery that you’d do just as well without.

[Jeanie]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:33 AM, stargazer said:

I would never want to do this for my son. If Jehovah created it that way let it be! Good hygiene is all what matters.

 

 

I could never imagine letting my boys not be circumcised.   Just out of curiosity why would you not do that for your son? (I don't say that to argue, I am genuinely interested in why you wouldn't because I have never had the opportunity to ask another parent that didn't circumcise).   I am assuming it depends on cultural factors, health concerns, aesthetics, etc. that have to be determined by the parents. I know it was a hard decision to make and requires a lot of research and thought coming to any choice that parents make.  

[Hope]

47 minutes ago, Jeanie said:

I could never imagine letting my boys not be circumcised.   Just out of curiosity why would you not do that for your son? (I don't say that to argue, I am genuinely interested in why you wouldn't because I have never had the opportunity to ask another parent that didn't circumcise).   I am assuming it depends on cultural factors, health concerns, aesthetics, etc. that have to be determined by the parents. I know it was a hard decision to make and requires a lot of research and thought coming to any choice that parents make.  

 

I just thought it was something that was "done".  My three brothers are circumcised, so is my son and his father . Don't know about my dad... never want to know about my dad... 😕  I actually had to look up exactly what "circumcision" meant for myself since we talk about it so much in the scriptures... not a search I'd recommend for teen girls, maybe, but what can I say?  I needed to know these things.    

 

If I had a boy nowadays, I probably wouldn't have it done.  It's not necessary, really... unless there ends up being some legitimate problem.  He could have it done if he wanted.  If Jehovah made him that way in the first place, it surely serves a valuable purpose.   

[kejedo]

2 hours ago, Jeanie said:

I could never imagine letting my boys not be circumcised.   Just out of curiosity why would you not do that for your son? (I don't say that to argue, I am genuinely interested in why you wouldn't because I have never had the opportunity to ask another parent that didn't circumcise).   I am assuming it depends on cultural factors, health concerns, aesthetics, etc. that have to be determined by the parents. I know it was a hard decision to make and requires a lot of research and thought coming to any choice that parents make.  

When I was in the maternity hospital, I had several nurses.

A.)One Jewish nurse told me she only had her son circumcised because it was a religious requirement.

B.)Another nurse told me that the Journal of American Pediatrics had advised AGAINST circumcision for years.

C.)My mother added that my older brother was born in a military hospital and circumcision was mandatory b/c it was expected that American males would grow up to be soldiers and they may not have access to hygiene. My mother also had a friend whose son's circumcision was cut too deep and he never grew up to have an adult male organ. She told me his mother was searching for a doc who could help him. 

D.) Another medical article (no internet then) told of later problems which could be healed/treated with that piece of skin attached.  

E.)One nurse was going to take me into the amphitheatre to watch the procedure done on another male infant. She told me the practice at that hospital was no anesthesia, just a sugar pacifier after surgery.  We got there too late and were in the hallway when the baby boy was brought our screaming blue murder. He was not accepting the sugar pacifier. My mother and Husband were pro-circumcision. After I saw that baby boy crying, I stood in the hospital hallway crying my eyes out. My husband and mother relented and let me make the decision NOT to circumcise.

Those are some of my reasons. I am also not being argumentative, but sharing information and not judging. If I had a baby girl, I would also not pierce her ears until she was old enough to make her own decision. I would not make the decision for elective surgery on behalf of my children (as babies). 

Here's one article about circumcision; it's followed by an additional piece of info,https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe. There are lots more articles available and this is not the only type of research I did, (although I do have a degree in psychology.)

Happy differences. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by kejedo

[Thesauron]

I could never imagine letting my boys not be circumcised.   Just out of curiosity why would you not do that for your son? (I don't say that to argue, I am genuinely interested in why you wouldn't because I have never had the opportunity to ask another parent that didn't circumcise).   I am assuming it depends on cultural factors, health concerns, aesthetics, etc. that have to be determined by the parents. I know it was a hard decision to make and requires a lot of research and thought coming to any choice that parents make.  

Why would you let your baby boys go through a surgery that is largely unnecessary? That particular surgery is very cultural. Also, if a man wishes it done because of aesthetics, he can make that choice as an adult.

[Jeanie]

17 hours ago, kejedo said:

When I was in the maternity hospital, I had several nurses.

A.)One Jewish nurse told me she only had her son circumcised because it was a religious requirement.

B.)Another nurse told me that the Journal of American Pediatrics had advised AGAINST circumcision for years.

C.)My mother added that my older brother was born in a military hospital and circumcision was mandatory b/c it was expected that American males would grow up to be soldiers and they may not have access to hygiene. My mother also had a friend whose son's circumcision was cut too deep and he never grew up to have an adult male organ. She told me his mother was searching for a doc who could help him. 

D.) Another medical article (no internet then) told of later problems which could be healed/treated with that piece of skin attached.  

E.)One nurse was going to take me into the amphitheatre to watch the procedure done on another male infant. She told me the practice at that hospital was no anesthesia, just a sugar pacifier after surgery.  We got there too late and were in the hallway when the baby boy was brought our screaming blue murder. He was not accepting the sugar pacifier. My mother and Husband were pro-circumcision. After I saw that baby boy crying, I stood in the hospital hallway crying my eyes out. My husband and mother relented and let me make the decision NOT to circumcise.

Those are some of my reasons. I am also not being argumentative, but sharing information and not judging. If I had a baby girl, I would also not pierce her ears until she was old enough to make her own decision. I would not make the decision for elective surgery on behalf of my children (as babies). 

Here's one article about circumcision; it's followed by an additional piece of info,https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe. There are lots more articles available and this is not the only type of research I did, (although I do have a degree in psychology.)

Happy differences. 

I didn't take it as arguing at all.  I am glad we are all able to make our decisions independently.  Thanks for sharing those experiences with me.  It is interesting to learn how parents come to that decision.    

[Jeanie]

16 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Why would you let your baby boys go through a surgery that is largely unnecessary? That particular surgery is very cultural. Also, if a man wishes it done because of aesthetics, he can make that choice as an adult.

Thesauron, I did not mention in my comment why I circumcised my boys.  My boys grandfather had penile cancer and lost a large portion of his penis, the doctor advised the whole family to  have their boys circumcised to decrease risk they would develop cancer.  I am positive that my boys would rather lose their foreskin as opposed to the whole penis.  

[Thesauron]

Thesauron, I did not mention in my comment why I circumcised my boys.  My boys grandfather had penile cancer and lost a large portion of his penis, the doctor advised the whole family to  have their boys circumcised to decrease risk they would develop cancer.  I am positive that my boys would rather lose their foreskin as opposed to the whole penis.  

For most men the cancer risk even as uncircumcised is extremely low. I don’t know about men with such cancers in their family, but for most, good hygiene is enough.