Trump threatens 'fury' against N Korea

[EccentricM]

4 hours ago, SheyZ said:

.. Oh! I see you are referring to the invisible authorities
Leader, Noble, Prince (‎1 occurrence)

Invisible demon princes governing the world powers of Persia and Greece are mentioned atDaniel 10:13, 20.—Compare Eph 6:12.

it-2 pp. 228-229 - Insight, Volume 2



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It also refers to the human governments I was told, as they are under Satan's influence. We obey the law, but only if it does not break God's law, this being due  to the fact that the entire world is in the power of the wicked one, hence why we are brought before courts, put in prison etc. People try to use Romans 13 to justify patriotism, killing and war as if God gives the governments authority to do so. It was what the Crusaders did and the Inquisition.  

 

If we fail to recognise that the human governments and authorities are a part of what our struggle is against in those scriptures, that we are no part of the world, then we would have to pay heed to Romans 13 in the way that the world and Babylon does, with absolute obedience  of the authorities even against the scriptures, but the apostles nor Jesus never did or said that. If our preaching and worship becomes illegal, then Ephesians 6 overrides Romans 13, in that we are then against the authorities, breaking the law, ( with the exception of following the laws that are not against the Bible)

 

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by EccentricM

[EccentricM]

From the Insight book on Governments;

 

Quote

The Bible reveals that there are invisible governments that are good, established by God (Eph 3:10), and those that are wicked, established by Satan and the demons. (Eph 6:12).

 

World Governments.

The Bible pictures world governments as “beasts” and says that they get their authority from the Dragon, Satan the Devil. God has permitted them to remain and has limited their scope and duration of rule, in harmony with his purpose.—Da chaps 7, 8; Re chaps 13, 17; Da 4:25, 35; Joh 19:11; Ac 17:26; 2Co 4:3, 4; see BEASTS, SYMBOLIC.

 

Christians and Governments.

Jesus Christ and the early Christians did nothing to interfere with human governments of their day. (Joh 6:15; 17:16; 18:36; Jas 1:27; 4:4) They recognized the fact that some form of government is necessary for the existence of society, and they never fomented revolution or civil disobedience.

 

Jesus set forth the guiding principle for true worshipers of God to follow when he said: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Mt 22:21) This principle enabled the early Christians (and Christians since then) to maintain a right balance as to relations with the two authorities, that of the civil governments and that of God. Jesus showed further that his position while on earth, and therefore that of his disciples, was not one of fighting against the “Caesar” governments but, rather, one of compliance with their regulations that did not conflict with God’s law. Pilate himself recognized this fact when he said: “I find no fault in him.” (Joh 18:38) The apostles followed Jesus’ example.—Ac 4:19, 20; 5:29; 24:16; 25:10, 11, 18, 19, 25; 26:31, 32; see KINGDOM; SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES.
 

We are against the governments in that we do not support them, nor bow to their whim when they suppress God's word, but neither do we take a political stand, take up arms or form some sort of riot or revolution against them, for Jehovah allows them them to rule. We simply obey both the governments and God respectively, which means obeying the governments as a command from God, but also going against them when they try to silence our preaching and worship as a command of God, simply by means of continuing to carry it out regardless of any law made against our worship/preaching.  

Edited August 9, 2017 by EccentricM

[carlos]

41 minutes ago, EccentricM said:

It also refers to the human governments I was told, as they are under Satan's influence.

No, this is not correct. Even though we know human governments are under Satan's influence, as in the publications you quoted, Ephesians 6:12 doesn't refer to them. We don't have a struggle with human governments or fight them in any way.

 

Please, read the whole scripture again: (Ephesians 6:11, 12) . . .Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, (=) against the authorities, (=) against the world rulers of this darkness, (=) against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.

 

It contrasts "blood and flesh" with "the governments", so making it clear that our fight is not against any human ruler. The same scripture makes clear that "the governments" and "the authorities" refer to "the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places". So we have a struggle against the demons and their influence, not human governments. The spiritual armor is useful only in a spiritual battle, what use would it be in a fight against human authorities? Of course, sometimes our struggle against demonic influence will mean to refuse to obey a law when it contradicts Bible principles, but then we are not going against the government.

 

Here are a couple quotations that help us understand this idea better (I searched Ephesians 6:12 in the Index):

 

*** it-1 p. 172 Arms, Armor ***
Spiritual Armor. Although true Christians do not share in fleshly warfare, they are engaged in a battle and are likened to soldiers. (Php 2:25; 2Ti 2:3; Phm 2) A Christian has a wrestling “against the governments [not made up of flesh-and-blood humans], against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.” (Eph 6:12) Since physical weapons and armor would be of no value in a battle against superhuman spirits, Christians must “take up the complete suit of armor from God.”—Eph 6:13.

 

*** lv chap. 5 pp. 59-60 par. 18 How to Keep Separate From the World ***
18 Those who keep themselves in God’s love also enjoy spiritual protection from Satan, who wants to deprive Christians, not just of happiness, but of everlasting life. (1 Peter 5:8) “We have a struggle,” said Paul, “not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12) The word “struggle” suggests that our fight is not long-distance—from the safety of a hidden bunker, so to speak—but hand-to-hand. Furthermore, the terms “governments,” “authorities,” and “world rulers” indicate that attacks from the spirit realm are highly organized and deliberate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EccentricM]

Ah I see @carlos I always read that scripture as a "list" of things we are struggling against, governments, authorities and demons rather than a single reference to just Satan's invisible government. When I read "not against blood and flesh" I thought it was referring to physical actions, politics, warfare and violence. 

 

So I guess you could say I read the scripture as; "We fight, not physically, but against the governments of the world and Satan and his Demons in the invisible realms".

 

But not as a form of revolution or political meddling of course, because we are subject to the authorities, but I assumed it was reference to the fact that when the governments imprison and persecute us for being followers of Jesus, that is when we have a "struggle against authorities".

Edited August 9, 2017 by EccentricM

[SheyZ]

No, this is not correct. Even though we know human governments are under Satan's influence, as in the publications you quoted, Ephesians 6:12 doesn't refer to them. We don't have a struggle with human governments or fight them in any way.
 
Please, read the whole scripture again: (Ephesians 6:11, 12) . . .Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, (=) against the authorities, (=) against the world rulers of this darkness, (=) against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.
 
It contrasts "blood and flesh" with "the governments", so making it clear that our fight is not against any human ruler. The same scripture makes clear that "the governments" and "the authorities" refer to "the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places". So we have a struggle against the demons and their influence, not human governments. The spiritual armor is useful only in a spiritual battle, what use would it be in a fight against human authorities? Of course, sometimes our struggle against demonic influence will mean to refuse to obey a law when it contradicts Bible principles, but then we are not going against the government.
 
Here are a couple quotations that help us understand this idea better (I searched Ephesians 6:12 in the Index):
 
*** it-1 p. 172 Arms, Armor ***
Spiritual Armor. Although true Christians do not share in fleshly warfare, they are engaged in a battle and are likened to soldiers. (Php 2:25; 2Ti 2:3; Phm 2) A Christian has a wrestling “against the governments [not made up of flesh-and-blood humans], against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.” (Eph 6:12) Since physical weapons and armor would be of no value in a battle against superhuman spirits, Christians must “take up the complete suit of armor from God.”—Eph 6:13.
 
*** lv chap. 5 pp. 59-60 par. 18 How to Keep Separate From the World ***
18 Those who keep themselves in God’s love also enjoy spiritual protection from Satan, who wants to deprive Christians, not just of happiness, but of everlasting life. (1 Peter 5:8) “We have a struggle,” said Paul, “not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12) The word “struggle” suggests that our fight is not long-distance—from the safety of a hidden bunker, so to speak—but hand-to-hand. Furthermore, the terms “governments,” “authorities,” and “world rulers” indicate that attacks from the spirit realm are highly organized and deliberate.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Thanks for the very Accurate and helpful explanation.

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[SheyZ]

Ah I see @carlos I always read that scripture as a "list" of things we are struggling against, governments, authorities and demons rather than a single reference to just Satan's invisible government. When I read "not against blood and flesh" I thought it was referring to physical actions, politics, warfare and violence. 
 
So I guess you could say I read the scripture as; "We fight, not physically, but against the governments of the world and Satan and his Demons in the invisible realms".
 
But not as a form of revolution or political meddling of course, because we are subject to the authorities, but I assumed it was reference to the fact that when the governments imprison and persecute us for being followers of Jesus, that is when we have a "struggle against authorities".

Ah! I understand your thinking on the scripture. Your a humble man Carlos to accept so clarification Christian love to u brother.

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[SheyZ]

Ah! I understand your thinking on the scripture. Your a humble man Carlos to accept so clarification Christian love to u brother.

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I meant eccentricman

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[Cushi]

North Koreans are taught from an early age to hate North Americans and that the US is out to get them. They are really gonna believe the propaganda now...

[ChocoBro]

On 8.8.2017 at 10:50 PM, EccentricM said:

'Is' NK going to be the "King of the North?" I wonder?  Maybe along side with Russia and other Soviets? 

 

 

The only thing North Korea and the King of the North have in common is the word "North". Also, North Korea is somehow somewhat benefitting from Russia by standing against the US. I don't think it could be any clearer that Russia still is and never really ceased being the King of the North, except for a brief Vodka break in the 90'ies.

 

North Korea seriously holds zero power, their military force is heavily overemphasized. During a conventional strike I'm certain the US would overpower North Korea within a few weeks if they wanted to. NK's air-force, navy and infantry equipment is barely beyond mid-20th century standard, in fact, a lot of their tech still in use since World War II.. Recalling how fast the United States steamrolld Iraq in 2004, I believe they would lose air superiority within days. Of course, there is the question about nuclear weapons, but anything developed by NK itself can not be taken into account in my opinion. The question is, how much stuff that actually poses a threat did they receive from China and Russia?

 

The main issue at hand, in my opinion, is the looming humanitarian crisis if there was to be war. The people of NK are barely surviving as it is and there are no strategic supplies to deal with a war scenario. If the United States went on a "shock and awe" campaign and brought the regime to its knees within, say, two or three months, that would be sufficient time for hundreds of thousands if not millions to die from starvation, plague or the ensuing chaos.

 

For this reason, I personally believe the US can not engage in a war with NK unless the United Nations oversees the effort and makes certain that logistics are in place to supply the population with relief efforts as soon as possible, for example via airdrops, and to put UN peacekeeping troops on the ground within a short period of time. The entire regime-shifting effort could become a global effort. So, I think it is quite possible that this crisis may lead to the UN begin growing its beastly teeth.

[carlos]

North Korea's military power is ridiculous compared to the US. There is only one reason why the US hasn't swept the Pyonyang regime: It's backed by China. And China's military power is much more fearsome.

 

There will not be a war with North Korea because none of the parties has nothing to win from a war. The US has a good ally in South Korea and doesn't want it devastated. Above all, the US doesn't want a war with China. China doesn't want a war with the US either, it's much more profitable to keep their business relationship. And North Korean leaders are very aware, despite all their bluffing, that they are nothing without Chinese support. So once again there will be a lot of barking but no biting.

Edited August 11, 2017 by carlos

[Tortuga]

6 minutes ago, carlos said:

So once again there will be a lot of barking but no biting.

...unless someone does something stupid...

[Musky]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

...unless someone does something stupid...

And which one do you think is most likely to do that?

 

[Tortuga]

19 minutes ago, Musky said:

And which one do you think is most likely to do that?

 

Split decision. ...even odds....

[Stavro]

The economy of both China and the US relies heavily on trade with one another, and NK is heavily reliant on foreign aid from China, South Korea, and the US. So if there were a war with Chinese military involvement, everyone loses.

 

That said, unlike the narcissistic rich kid who got everything from his daddy and never had to answer to anyone in his life, Chinese President Xi probably knows the meaning of 'don't bite the hand that feeds you'. He'll probably put on some show of force to scare off the US from getting heavily involved, but at the end of the day they aren't going to decimate their own economy just to fight someone else's war.

[JW-Ind]

Chinese paper says China should stay neutral if North Korea attacks first

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china-media-idUSKBN1AR005?il=0

 

If North Korea launches an attack that threatens the United States then China should stay neutral, but if the United States attacks first and tries to overthrow North Korea's government China will stop them, a Chinese state-run newspaper said on Friday.

 

China, North Korea's most important ally and trading partner, has reiterated calls for calm during the current crisis. It has expressed frustration with both Pyongyang's repeated nuclear and missile tests and with behavior from South Korea and the United States that it sees as escalating tensions. 

 

The widely read state-run Global Times, published by the ruling Communist Party's official People's Daily, wrote in an editorial that Beijing is not able to persuade either Washington or Pyongyang to back down.

[EccentricM]

3 hours ago, carlos said:

 And China's military power is much more fearsome.

 

Very much so. In fact the Chinese women's army alone out numbers the entire population of the United States.

[Old]

2 hours ago, EccentricM said:

Very much so. In fact the Chinese women's army alone out numbers the entire population of the United States.

Check your numbers and get back to us. 

[Musky]

Number of women in Chinese army: about 2 million

Population of the United States as of 2016: approximately 323 million.

[EccentricM]

21 minutes ago, Old said:

Check your numbers and get back to us. 

 

Well, according to that video, old video though.

 

 

 

United States of America/Population

 

323.1 million (2016)

 

How many people are in the Chinese armed forces?

List

Country	Active military	Reserve military
China	2,333,000	510,000

 

 

 

Total numbers Chinese army available; 

 

750,000,000

 

Not all are currently active, but if they wanted they could make them all active.  (Don't know how many women are available in these numbers, but the listed  manpower listed here far out numbers the US population. 

 

http://www.globalfirepower.com/available-military-manpower.asp

 

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=china

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by EccentricM

[Friends just call me Ross]

The size of a country's infantry  doesn't matter, if a war

is waged with nuclear weapons.

[SheyZ]

The size of a country's infantry  doesn't matter, if a war
is waged with nuclear weapons.

We may also be looking at the Cry of Peace and Security in near future by UN.

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[Musky]

10 hours ago, EccentricM said:

 

Well, according to that video, old video though.

 

 

 

United States of America/Population

 

323.1 million (2016)

 

How many people are in the Chinese armed forces?

List

Country	Active military	Reserve military
China	2,333,000	510,000

 

 

 

Total numbers Chinese army available; 

 

750,000,000

 

Not all are currently active, but if they wanted they could make them all active.  (Don't know how many women are available in these numbers, but the listed  manpower listed here far out numbers the US population. 

 

http://www.globalfirepower.com/available-military-manpower.asp

 

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=china

 

 

I have never considered YouTube to be a reliable news source.  The atricle found here says:

 

"A recent report from the US Congressional Research Service outlines China's 2.3 million-member armed forces and sheds light on misconceptions from Western military analysts."

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-us-military-comparison-2016-8

 

Where does the "750,000,000" number come from?

Edited August 11, 2017 by Musky

[Shawnster]

China has a billion people. 3/4 of their population is not military. 

 

China's history of 1 child policy and cultural history of favoring boys has left a shortage of women in China. 

[Cushi]

China has about 1 million more in military personnel that the US. Compared to their population, their military isn't that big.

[Old]

9 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

China has about 1 million more in military personnel that the US. Compared to their population, their military isn't that big.

The size of opposing armies is probably not the criteria for global power. The logistics of food supplies, housing, transportation, etc. are a much bigger problem when it comes to fighting a war on foreign soil. I can't see a giant "boots on the ground" war this side of Armageddon.

Things falling from the sky are the things nightmares are made of.