City clerk refuses to marry same-sex couples based on religious beliefs

[Trina]

This woman stated that she cannot give these same-sex couples a marriage license no matter what the federal government says because it goes against God's word. There were protesters present for same-sex choice as well as protestors for "freedom of religion". There is trouble coming for her for this stand. In my opinion, she should have just given up her job and let them do as they please. Interesting how those of other faiths are standing up for their beliefs.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/clerk-issue-gay-marriage-licenses-court-ruling-33447383

[Ahuvah]

My brother in law who is a witness holds the same position as this clerk does and he too won't issue the licences, not that I know if he's been asked since we discussed this - but he said there are plenty of other people in the office who would do it - so he would just pass it onto someone else.  It's easy to say give up your job ... and if you are able to perform your job without it violating your conscience notwithstanding the odd hiccup we all get in our jobs - then you shouldn't have to give it up unless you are left with no choice but to issue the license.

[Stavro]

In this case Kim Davis is an elected official, so her oath of office requires that she is the one to sign the paperwork.

 

If she wants to stand up for her beliefs, she can resign from her elected position and work in a non-elected position in that same office, which would give her the authority to have a co-worker fill out the paperwork and the newly appointed clerk would sign it.

 

While jail time is being mentioned as a possibility, it is solely her choice to push things that far. She has every opportunity to peacefully remove herself from the situation, instead she seems intent on making herself a martyr to her cause.

[Trina]

I completely agree with what your saying brother Stavro. She is making it into an issue. I think her issue is that she shouldn't have to give up her position to follow her religious freedom of belief. But when it is a required part of your position...it's time to reposition yourself like you said also. I'm looking at what the outcome is on this though.

[rbrown1205]

It is difficult to decide where to draw the line about some things.    I am thinking about, what would I do if I were in that position?  Is issuing a marriage license the same as condoning conduct?

I keep going back to that Watchtower lesson about conscience matters in the workplace.  It mentioned Naaman and his request to be looked over when he had to hold his king while the king bowed down to a false god.  It also mentioned a cashier of a store that sold cigarettes among many, many other things.

Some witnesses have been known to pull up and take down a flag in front of their work place ,and did it with full conscience, because they are not pledging allegiance to it.  And what if a teacher's aide has to pull a special ed student to his feet while the pledge is being recited in class?

*** w82 7/15 p. 26 Benefiting From Your God-given Conscience ***

Employment Factors to Consider
  When a Christian must make a decision about a certain employment, he should give thought first to what he would actually be doing. He might consider these two points:
Is the particular work condemned in the Bible?
  The Bible condemns things such as stealing, idolatry and the misuse of blood, so a Christian could hardly engage in work where he directly promoted such things.
  Would doing the work so closely link a person with a condemned practice that he would be a clear accomplice?
  Even a janitor or a receptionist at a blood bank or a plant making only weapons of war is directly linked with work contrary to God’s Word.—Leviticus 17:13, 14; Isaiah 2:2-4.
  Beyond what a person would actually be doing, some additional factors may have a bearing on the overall picture:
  Is the work a human service that is not Biblically wrong?
  A postman performs the service of delivering mail to homes and businesses. Would a Christian be condemned if among the places where he delivers mail are a few homes of thieves or a firm selling idols?—Matthew 5:45.
  To what extent does one have authority over what is done?
  A Christian owning a store would not stock and sell idols or blood sausage. He is not in the same situation as an employee at a supermarket that sells cigarettes or blood pudding among thousands of other items.
  To what degree is the person involved?
  An employee working as a cashier and only occasionally handling cigarettes might conclude that his situation is not the same as another employee who stocks these on the shelves almost all day.
  What is the source of the pay or the location where it is done?
  In a land where the government gives a church oversight of all social programs, a man might get his paycheck from a religious corporation. But actually his work of maintaining public parks is not on church property. Nor is it religious in nature or viewed as promoting false worship.
  What is the overall effect of doing certain work?
  Would doing the work stumble many, bringing on ‘reprehensibility’? (1 Timothy 3:2, 10) How would it affect the worker’s conscience?

*** km 9/76 p. 3 Doing Work with a Good Conscience Before God and Men ***
Clearly there is a difference between doing work that benefits people just as fellow humans and work that directly fosters or directly gives support to wrong practices. The principal question is: “Does the work or activity to be performed in itself constitute an act condemned by God’s Word? Or, if it does not, is it nevertheless so directly linked to such condemned practices that it would make those doing such work actual accomplices or promoters of the wrong practice?” In such cases Christian conscience should surely cause them to reject such employment.


 

[trottigy]

I am thinking how a JW whose conscience bothers them would do this differently.

We would ask our supervisor if there is some way not to be involved in issuing those and if not we may find a different job - rather than breaking the law and bringing attention to ourselves.

Just a thought to those who may be a JW and in this position. Would they issue a license to a couple (man and woman) who they knew were only doing marrying for some financial reason and actually had a disrespect for marriage? Or if they displayed some other disrespectful attitude towards marriage.

There is much to think about here, eh.

[Trina]

I think it is just extremely hard these days, Satan has twisted every scenario to try to get us to break our loyalty to God. We would really need to act firm in our resolve and remember we are making a reply to him that is taunting Jehovah our loving creator.

[rocket]

She wouldn't have this problem if she had maintained the Christ like personality with regard political neutrality. She would never have been an elected official. You can't have a sworn allegiance to two masters. 

[Trina]

Very good point brother Tilford!

[Shawnster]

Just a thought to those who may be a JW and in this position. Would they issue a license to a couple (man and woman) who they knew were only doing marrying for some financial reason and actually had a disrespect for marriage? Or if they displayed some other disrespectful attitude towards marriage.

There is much to think about here, eh.

 

Regardless of the heterosexual couple's intent on getting married, their marriage would be recognized by Jehovah.  They would no longer be "living in sin" or committing fornication.  If two (or even one) Witnesses were to get married only for some financial reason or so they could have sex and were thus displaying some disrespectful attitude toward marriage, the elder body would still view them as married.  

 

 

 In contrast, a homosexual marriage would never be recognized by Jehovah and the two would continue to be engaging in gross sexual misconduct.  

Edited September 2, 2015 by Shawnster

[Tortuga]

Here come the personal attacks...

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clerk-fighting-gay-marriage-has-wed-4-times/ar-AAdQSO9?ocid=spartandhp

[trottigy]

Here come the personal attacks...

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clerk-fighting-gay-marriage-has-wed-4-times/ar-AAdQSO9?ocid=spartandhp

 

 

Interesting:

 

 

The Kentucky county clerk facing potentially stiff penalties for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses has been married four times, raising questions of hypocrisy and selective application of the Bible to her life. 

The marriages are documented in court records obtained by U.S. News, which show that Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis divorced three times, first in 1994, then 2006 and again in 2008.

She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried.

Davis has described her desire to strictly adhere to the Bible in stark terms and thus far has shown no sign of bending to court orders on same-sex marriage. She said Tuesday she fears going to hell for violating "a central teaching" of the Bible if she complies with the orders.

Davis' struggle to exempt herself from the Supreme Court's June decision legalizing same-sex marriage has excited some Christian conservatives but legally has proven futile: The Supreme Court refused her request Monday that the justices intervene, and a federal judge will decide Thursday whether to hold her in contempt.

Davis’ divorce records, in the meantime, are a “popular file” at the local courthouse, a woman who answered the phone tells U.S. News, as bloggers and social media users titter with accusations of hypocrisy.

[Sheep]

That story says she became a "Christian" four years ago. But from what I understand, all her divorces and remarriages took place before that. How can her opposers use her multiple marriages against her?

 

However, as was already mentioned, she's not a true Christian in the first place. Otherwise she would never continue as an elected official, but would leave that office. No more problems after that.

 

Or, would there be? When you see the spirit of animosity among gays and lesbians towards those who will not accept homosexuality, it makes me wonder if they would continue to make legal trouble for her anyway. They would still likely push to make it illegal to refuse to accept it as a normal alternative.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Sheep

[Trina]

Yes, I agree that this federal law has heightened the hatred for Christianity(and other religions) in all areas. It looks as if we are seeing the setup for the day when the government's will turn against religion for what they believe is a good reason, human rights, and equality. How could even Christians (those who are not "true" Christians) all agree to turn against ALL religion if it were not for the good of the majority of humans everywhere...can you see what I mean?

[Rosalie4u]

Thanks for the background on this woman.  Very interesting.

 

I know a brother that was in construction management and when the economy went into a nose dive and he was laid off, he decided to become a nurse since it would only require like a year for him to qualify.  When he got a job at a hospital, I asked him if there would be a problem about the blood issue (administration of).  He told me something that really surprised me and made me think.  He said the society had looked into it and had said that since it was a job with duties that on occasion may require a nurse to hook up blood, that it was an "order" by a superior and that had been agreed to by the patient, so that it was Ok to carry out the order.  That the nurse was not responsible for objecting on behalf of the patient.  He said it was such a tiny part of being a nurse and carrying out your duties. 

 

I am still thinking about it.  Just like I am still thinking about whether a JW could go ahead and issue a marriage license since the government said it is legal now. 

 

Surely there are many jobs out there that has a small "objectionable" part to them that if we get too technical, it would drive us crazy.  If you are really sensitive, I do not see how you could work for someone else or even go shopping during certain times of the year (all the seasonal products, music, etc. that you are bombarded with just to get groceries, etc.)

 

So the society tries to help us to guide our consciences.  Oh my, what a difficult world we live in.

[Tortuga]

Surely there are many jobs out there that has a small "objectionable" part to them that if we get too technical, it would drive us crazy.  If you are really sensitive, I do not see how you could work for someone else or even go shopping during certain times of the year (all the seasonal products, music, etc. that you are bombarded with just to get groceries, etc.)

 

I think you might enjoy some of the comments on this topic.

 

http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/21577-how-does-the-law-on-gay-marriage-affect-you/?p=307688

[Mei]

Uh-oh! 

"A federal judge Thursday declared a Kentucky county clerk who opposes same-sex unions on religious grounds in contempt of court for defying his order and sent her to jail until she complies."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/defiant-kentucky-clerk-to-appear-in-court-over-refusal-to-issue-same-sex-marriage-licenses-1441295805
 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Mei

[Trina]

And now it's too late for her to quit or ask for a different position. I think it's sad because I feel like she honestly is trying to stand up for God's standards. I hope that someone can reach her with the truth while she is in jail.

[rbrown1205]

One could see Jehovah's hand of guidance for us in this case.  As has been mentioned before, we would not be in an elected position.  Not only is the issue of political neutrality an important point, but by being elected you are obligated to obey the laws of the land as they relate to the office, even those laws that you scripturally cannot agree with.  Now that the law about homosexual marriages has passed, anyone elected who has sworn the oath to follow the laws has to obey even a law that was passed after they were put in that position.

 

One of Jehovah's witnesses would not be in that position, because he/she would not seek or accept an office that must be voted in.  So, becauase of this, the requirement to do something that is against God's law would not enter the picture.  Praise to Jehovah who teaches us to benefit ourselves!!

 

If  any one of us should ever think that political neutrality is just "a conscience thing" would do well to keep this example in mind.

Edited September 4, 2015 by rbrown1205

[Ahuvah]

Being a court clerk in New Zealand is just like being an office worker. Even working in a Dairy (a cornerstore) you are obligated to sell cigarettes to customers because your employer asks you to, as long as it only part of the job then it is a conscience matter. If it was the main job description then it becomes black and white.

 

Being a court clerk in NZ is no different ... while 99% is probably just fine ... a fraction of it is not. That means it's a conscience matter. Even in every day jobs we have to take stands like refusing to put up Christmas decorations etc - again it's not as clear cut for everyone.

 

We have had and still have witnesses here in NZ who are court clerks - with no problems at all.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Stormswift

[Trina]

The key factor for everything in life is that we all need to remember that Jehovah is watching and noticing the efforts we make to stay within his guidelines, some may feel they could not do these things with a clear conscience while others may feel that it is just part of the menial tasks required. Boy am I glad I am a sister and not a shepherd!!! It is a very difficult decision and Jehovah is appreciating every extra effort we make to stay clear of this twisted world today in these extremely difficult times hard to deal with. I'm not judging because I'm not sure of all the circumstances involved and it seems each geographic area is different.

[MzT]

Honestly, while the issue over gay marriage is the big news here...IMHO it's a distraction.  The real issue with this case is, are those trusted to uphold the laws of the land allowed to use their personal beliefs as a reason to circumvent state and federal laws?  If she is allowed to do this simply because people disagree with "gay marriage" - what's to stop others from using similarly erroneous beliefs as a basis to circumvent the laws?

 

Think about how this could affect us in more practical ways if the government allows her to continue with this quest.

[Mykyl]

Seems she wanted to impose her conscience on others as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34145941

"After interviewing her fellow clerks, the judge said Ms Davis could go free if she allowed her deputies to grant the licences, but Davis refused."

[Trina]

And yet it is a very slippery slope here...if we are not allowed to follow our conscience that is based on bible beliefs then we are asking for problems when it comes to a number of things we do as well...this is a core necessity for any of us to be able to follow our religious beliefs...it is not good in any way when the government does not uphold the rights of both sides of the situation.

This being said and others have stated the same she should have stepped out of her position and definitely allowed others to do this part of her job instead, since she forced others to go along with her beliefs this created a scenario where she did the same thing she states the government was doing to her in not allowing her to follow her beliefs...she messed up!

On that topic doesn't she have to take an oath to uphold the rights of others...so we should always really pay attention to any oath we would make to take a position of employment as well.

[jpcook]

Another reason true Christians do not get involved with politics!