Church of Sweden did what???

[adamcu78]

this is UNBELIEVABLE!!!

"The Church of Sweden has voted to adopt a controversial new handbook which says masculine references to God, such as “He” and “Lord” should be scrapped so as to be more “inclusive"

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/11/23/church-sweden-drops-male-god/

[BibleSteve]

Quote from the above article

God should be referred to as “Mother” as well as “Father” in some prayers, according to guidelines in the manual, which gives the following as an example:

“God, Holy Trinity, Father and Mother, Son – Sister and Brother, and Spirit – Lifeguard and Inspirator, lead us to your depths of wealth, wisdom and knowledge”.

[EccentricM]

Oh my goodness...  

 

I knew this whole gender thing was insane, but never this. Man, yet again, trying to change the scriptures and truth, God's word, for their own version of truth and righteousness.  Going as far to change God's masculine/male nature to something something he detests and making God look like something he is not. Thinking they can enforce their views, and bring Jehovah down to "their standards" and make him bow to "their rules" that they can tell Jehovah that he has to be "inclusive" in accordance to "their law". 

 

Have they forgotten?  “But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”  – 1 Corinthians 11:3

 

What next? Jehovah to Josephine?  

 

 

Just as Jesus said; 

 

“He said to them: ‘Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me.  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.'” – Mark 7:6-8

Edited November 24, 2017 by EccentricM

[Tia]

2 hours ago, adamcu78 said:

this is UNBELIEVABLE!!!

"The Church of Sweden has voted to adopt a controversial new handbook which says masculine references to God, such as “He” and “Lord” should be scrapped so as to be more “inclusive"

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/11/23/church-sweden-drops-male-god/

Brother Adam,

So glad you posted this!  I fell asleep and woke up very early am - and google to find this and could not!

Thanks

[Dages]

Not really surprising from Sweden.

 

Still, this is disgusting.

[Shawnster]

My exact thought, David 

 

Well, it is Sweden, after all. 

[GrumpysWife]

During the woman liberation movement here in the US, many started saying God was a woman. 

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, GrumpysWife said:

During the woman liberation movement here in the US, many started saying God was a woman. 

That is what I was thinking too, this doesn't sound new to me, I heard this stuff 50 years ago.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Tortuga

[Sequoia]

I read in an issue of Awake a long time ago about a gender neutral Bible version.

[Thesauron]

Although breitbart is a questionable news source, it is true that the Church of Sweden plans to use a gender neutral pronoun in a handbook they are publishing. The NWT committee however, has opted to keep the male pronoun when talking about God, since it seems God is described that way in the bible, even though, granted, it is useless to talk about genders when it comes to spirit beings.


Any day now...

[ChocoBro]

5 hours ago, JW2017 said:

I read in an issue of Awake a long time ago about a gender neutral Bible version.

 

Motherfather godgoddess in the heaven, doubleplusgoodhallowed be thy name.

 

3 hours ago, Thesauron said:

even though, granted, it is useless to talk about genders when it comes to spirit beings.

 

There's probably a good reason the bible writers chose to use the male gender to describe spirit beings, and why Jesus turned out to be male and not female (though many of his attributes would have matched well to a female, too) though we don't know the full reason yet. But this ties in with why man was created before woman (1 Cor. 11:7-9) I don't believe the NWT committee had any doubt to this at all. It doesn't "seem" God is described male in the bible at all, it's pretty undeniable that this is the gender he used to describe his qualities.

Edited November 24, 2017 by ChocoBro

[Thesauron]

 
There's probably a good reason the bible writers chose to use the male gender to describe spirit beings, and why Jesus turned out to be male and not female (though many of his attributes would have matched well to a female, too) though we don't know the full reason yet. But this ties in with why man was created before woman (1 Cor. 11:7-9) I don't believe the NWT committee had any doubt to this at all. It doesn't "seem" God is described male in the bible at all, it's pretty undeniable that this is the gender he used to describe his qualities.

Hebrew grammar is quite tricky, and many translators would claim that the pronoun used for spirit creatures do not indicate actual gender, but grammatical gender. This is the reasoning done by the NWT committee, from Appendix A2:

Hebrew and Greek nouns indicate male or female gender, and in Greek, also neuter. At times, though, reflecting the gender of the original-language term may obscure the intended meaning. In both Hebrew and Greek, plural nouns are generally masculine, not only when referring exclusively to males but also when referring to both males and females. For example, though the expression “the sons of Israel” may refer to the 12 sons of Jacob, it more often refers to the entire nation of Israel, both men and women. (Genesis 46:5; Exodus 35:29) So in the revision, this phrase was often rendered “Israelites” to show that it refers to the entire nation. Similarly, the expression “fatherless boy” was rendered “fatherless child” or “orphan” to show that it may refer to a boy or a girl. On the other hand, since the Bible uses the male gender in reference to God and to his Son, as well as to various angels and demons, there is no basis for using genderless terms as is done in some modern translations.


Any day now...

[Loopy]

Talk about blasphemy 

[ChocoBro]

15 hours ago, Thesauron said:

it is useless to talk about genders when it comes to spirit beings.

 

10 hours ago, Thesauron said:

On the other hand, since the Bible uses the male gender in reference to God and to his Son, as well as to various angels and demons, there is no basis for using genderless terms as is done in some modern translations.

 

[EccentricM]

I guess it's the whole gender identity/biology thing. Spirits don't have biology so they are... "physically" genderless, but as peoples they are gendered and do not change. 

 

God made us in his image, but "male and female", in physical form. So our physicality represents (or should, we don't choose, we "are") what gender we are within as a person.  Jesus did not come down as a woman, nor have any materialised angels. 

 

There maybe masculine and feminine "spirit essences", so anointed women may retain their feminine personality for all we know, and this may be transferred into a female spirit essence, but not in a physical sexual organs biology way. 

[Thesauron]

 

I don’t know you mean, but Hebrew uses a grammatical gender. It does mean we should understand spirit beings to be male or female. Holy Spirit, for instance, has a female grammatical gender. Do we talk about it as “she”?


Any day now...

[Shawnster]

5 hours ago, EccentricM said:

 

 

There maybe masculine and feminine "spirit essences", so anointed women may retain their feminine personality for all we know, and this may be transferred into a female spirit essence, but not in a physical sexual organs biology way. 

 

 

[Thesauron]

I guess it's the whole gender identity/biology thing. Spirits don't have biology so they are... "physically" genderless, but as peoples they are gendered and do not change. 
 
God made us in his image, but "male and female", in physical form. So our physicality represents (or should, we don't choose, we "are") what gender we are within as a person.  Jesus did not come down as a woman, nor have any materialised angels. 
 
There maybe masculine and feminine "spirit essences", so anointed women may retain their feminine personality for all we know, and this may be transferred into a female spirit essence, but not in a physical sexual organs biology way. 

Why would that even be necessary?

Spirit creatures could just as well have come down as women, but they got male bodies, perhaps because it signified things to the ancient Hebrews, such as leadership, strength, etc. It probably has little or nothing to do with any gender division “inside” of them in heaven, or “essence”.

No doubt those who are raised to heavenly life will have memories of being a human male or female, and that will be useful, I guess, in many ways. As for “essence”, no doubt they will be spirit creatures completely, with all that it entails, not male or female.


Any day now...

[EccentricM]

11 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

Why would that even be necessary?

May as well ask why Jesus calling Jehovah "Father" and not "Mother" is necessary. If it doesn't matter, are we saying that Babylon is in the right here to change the scriptures? I don't. 

[Thesauron]

May as well ask why Jesus calling Jehovah "Father" and not "Mother" is necessary. If it doesn't matter, are we saying that Babylon is in the right here to change the scriptures? I don't. 

For the very same reason that all anointed are depicted as ‘a woman’, just like Israel was. It shows a certain relationship, not gender in any way. (Compare Galatians 4:26)

They haven’t changed the scriptures, just failed to translate it properly. You need to take into account the whole scripture to make a good translation.


Any day now...

[EccentricM]

2 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

For the very same reason that all anointed are depicted as ‘a woman’, just like Israel was. It shows a certain relationship, not gender in any way. (Compare Galatians 4:26)

They haven’t changed the scriptures, just failed to translate it properly. You need to take into account the whole scripture to make a good translation.


Any day now...

 

So you're saying Jehovah isn't actually masculine in nature? Odd, as he for some reason has made spiritual male dominance a thing for humans as well. 

[carlos]

What that Appendix explains about plural masculine names in Hebrew referring to a mixed group of males and females is just a grammatical feature that happens as well in Spanish and to a lesser degree in English. When we talk about "mankind", "our forefathers" or "a nation of freemen" we are not referring only to males, but to both men and women. The "men of Athens" that Paul addressed at the Aeropagus included both men and women, since according to Acts 17:34 among the "men that joined him and became believers" there was "a woman named Damaris". In Spanish the same happens with most words in plural. For example we have no word for "parents", a Spanish-speaker simply says "mis padres" (literally "my fathers") referring to both his father and mother. But that in no way means that the singular word "father" is gender-ambiguous, neither in Spanish nor English nor in Hebrew or Greek.

 

Of course, Jehovah, as any spirit, is genderless. Both man and woman were created in God's image, so He possesses both the qualities that we identify as masculine and feminine. Yet he showed clearly how he wishes us to visualize him when he inspired Bible writers to present him as our Father and always refer to him as "he". When he inspired Moses to sing "Jehovah is a manly person of war" (Exodus 15:3 MWT1984, "powerful warrior" NWT2013) he certainly didn't mean to bring to mind a powerful amazon.

 

The best argument IMO against these gender-neutral mistranslations is that Jesus addressed Jehovah as "our father", not as "our parent". Koine Greek has a gender-neutral word for "parent" (γονεύς) which is used several times in the Bible. For example, it is used in Luke 2:27 to refer to Jesus' parents: Joseph and Mary. So if the Bible had meant to teach us that Jehovah is both our father and our mother, the Lord's Prayer would have been a great occasion to use that neutral word, but Jehovah directed the inspired writer to use "Father" instead.

[Thesauron]

 
So you're saying Jehovah isn't actually masculine in nature? Odd, as he for some reason has made spiritual male dominance a thing for humans as well. 

He has masculine traits to perfection. And feminine. But he is neither male nor female. He is certainly genderless. Just as angels are, and also Jesus as a spirit being.


Any day now...

[EccentricM]

Just now, Thesauron said:

He has masculine traits to perfection. And feminine. But he is neither male nor female. He is certainly genderless. Just as angels are, and also Jesus as a spirit being.


Any day now...

 

Of course, I mean that he would surely identity as some sort of "male figure" though right? If he wants us to call him father. Even if not by an Earthly concept. 

[Thesauron]

49 minutes ago, carlos said:

The best argument IMO against these gender-neutral mistranslations is that Jesus addressed Jehovah as "our father", not as "our parent". Koine Greek has a gender-neutral word for "parent" (γονεύς) which is used several times in the Bible. For example, it is used in Luke 2:27 to refer to Jesus' parents: Joseph and Mary. So if the Bible had meant to teach us that Jehovah is both our father and our mother, the Lord's Prayer would have been a great occasion to use that neutral word, but Jehovah directed the inspired writer to use "Father" instead.

Exactly. They take the Hebrew grammar and run with it, but fail to take other scriptures into account. By their reasoning we ought to talk about Holy Spirit as “she”, but we don’t. We learn from various scriptures that this spirit is neither he nor she, but it, since it’s an impersonal force. It’s a failure on the part of the translator. He (or she) needs to know the Bible and it’s context. But, the fact that the bible talks about Jehovah God’s as “father” should not be misunderstood to mean that Jehovah is male in nature. He is not. Neither is God female. Nor is God it.

 

In Swedish, things are gendered historically. Example, th word for nurse (sjuksköterska) is always feminine, even if the nurse is a man. The masculine form (sjukskötare) always means a mental hospital worker. Fireman (brandman) is always masculine. A boat is certainly neither he nor she, but is always in the feminine form. Some words have a masculine and feminine form, for exempel author (författare, författarinna) but certain movements want to move away from such differences, in favour of the male expression. The RTO is paying close attention to such changes in the language.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Thesauron