President Putin says Jehovah's Witnesses are not terrorists?

[Tortuga]

23 hours ago, Tortuga said:

It appears that Mr Putin may speak with a forked tongue...

OTOH, I don't know how he can hide what he is doing. If he says he will do something and doesn't do it, I think everyone will know about it. 

[carlos]

I see a lot of friends are enthused thinking Putin will stop the persecution of our brothers in Russia. I absolutely do not share that enthusiasm. Putin is a skilled politician. He will say anything people want to hear, then do what he wants, as all politicians do.

 

Where have you ever met a politician who was honest and sincere and who fulfilled his promises? I am yet to see one.

 

Just now, Tortuga said:

OTOH, I don't know how he can hide what he is doing. If he says he will do something and doesn't do it, I think everyone will know about it. 

Well, he denied Russia was at war with Ukraine at the same time Russian troops were annexing Crimea and the eastern half of Ukraine.

 

As much as I would love to see our Russian brothers being freed and worshipping in peace again, my opinion is that the King of the North will keep on trampling on the land of decoration and his animosity against Jehovah's people will only grow with time.

[Omoyeme]

6 hours ago, Miss Bea said:

There has to be hidden motives behind this. Sounds calculating to me. I find it hard to believe with them taking our headquarters and treating our brothers and sister as they have, that he did not have prior knowledge. 

I find this hard to believe too Sister Bea.  This ban was calculated and planned many years in advance.  The following are end-of-article comments I read and found interesting from an insider from the Washington Post website:

 

Quote

I am Jehovah's Witness. I live in Moscow. I understand that eliminating of the ban is unlikely. [...]

 

Quote

The ban on the activities of Jehovah's Witnesses has been prepared for 10 years. For this, law enforcement agencies have done a great job: numerous courts, searches, conducting costly expert examinations, etc. All this gigantic work cannot be canceled out because of a few words of the President, he said during only one of the hundreds of meetings of public commissions in which he participated.

 

Quote

The case also concerns confiscated real estate for a total of about $ 100 million. This property already has new owners. If Russian Court admitted that the ban was a mistake, then the state would have to return such a large amount of money to JW. I think this is not possible. So, the ban is likely to remain in force.

 

Quote

Unfortunately, these are just words. Even Putin can not solve this issue alone. The ban for Jehovah's Witnesses comes from the Supreme Court. In addition, Putin will not be able to overcome public opinion. Too much has already been done to return the former freedoms to Jehovah's Witnesses [...]

 

FWIW, all of this is going according to divine plan.  Let God's will be done!

Edited December 18, 2018 by Omoyeme

[Bruceq]

Optimistically I think this is a great witness to Jehovah - after all it has now gone to the associated press and worldwide within 24 hours, so it dosen't matter what Putin does Jehovah has it in his ballpark and always did. Those rightly disposed will see things with a correct attitude to our message and the news about us. If people forgot about the plight of Jehovah's Witnesses well within 24 hours that has now changed. Praise Jah

[carlos]

59 minutes ago, Omoyeme said:

Unfortunately, these are just words. Even Putin can not solve this issue alone. The ban for Jehovah's Witnesses comes from the Supreme Court. In addition, Putin will not be able to overcome public opinion. Too much has already been done to return the former freedoms to Jehovah's Witnesses [...]

I agree these are just words. But the point about the ban coming from the Supreme Court... ahem. The Supreme Court judges were told very clearly what they had to rule. They were either threatened or bought off. The same who had the power to tell them to ban, has the power to tell them to unban. But he won't.

[Tbs77]

Do we not pray for the brothers in Russia? Do we not pray for Putin and other world leaders (those in high station) as directed by the Scriptures?

1 Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.


In addition, Proverbs 21:1 A king’s heart is like streams of water in Jehovah’s hand. He directs it wherever He pleases.

Let's watch events unfold!



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Bruceq]

Expect the Unexpected. 

[SUNRAY]

52 minutes ago, Bruceq said:

Expect the Unexpected. 

This seems unexpected!https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-orthodox-church-calls-on-un-for-help-in-ukraine

😃

[BLEmom]

9 hours ago, Stormswift said:

Yes, what I had forgotten was all our letters ... how could he NOT know our stance ... he's 'acting' surprised and innocent.

He used to hold up the world you know ... 

With his shirt off 😂

[Bek]

10 hours ago, BibleSteve said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure previously he has said Russia doesn't respect the European high court and that Russias own high court is better? and therefore they don't care what the European court says.

Yes, that is true, but it was just rhetoric. Russia still obeys the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights and often pays out compensation to all kinds of claimants. However, there has been a case when Russia flatly refused to comply as it was about huge sums of over 1bn dollars. In other words, Russia's compliance with the European Court is selective. 

 

Quote

Even Putin can not solve this issue alone. The ban for Jehovah's Witnesses comes from the Supreme Court. In addition, Putin will not be able to overcome public opinion. Too much has already been done to return the former freedoms to Jehovah's Witnesses 

Putin can solve it single-handedly if he wanted to. The Russian Supreme Court is not independent at all and should not be seen as powerful as Western courts that can strike down president's decrees and so on. The chairman of the Russian Supreme Court is Putin's old university professor and they are quite chummy. In fact, Putin put his teacher in that position to have things under his control. Wherever you look, you will see Putin's cronies in high places. The public opinion is not very important in Russia and its former colonies. We live in a completely different civilisational dimension. In many ways, Russia and its neighbouring countries are run like medieval Central Asian or Mongolian kingdoms where one man decides everything. 

 

The theory I proposed a few posts above yesterday is just a theory. Putin's words may turn out to be just words and no actions. But in politics, especially big politics, anything is possible. We do not know the things behind the scenes.   

Edited December 19, 2018 by Bek

[carlos]

If Putin keeps his word and our friends in Russia are freed from prison and given freedom to worship, I invite you all to a big barbecue in my home to celebrate it. You bring the drinks!

Edited December 19, 2018 by carlos

[Tortuga]

4 hours ago, carlos said:

If Putin keeps his word and our friends in Russia are freed from prison and given freedom to worship, 

Did he say that?

This is what the article says:

“This is complete nonsense, we must carefully deal with this,” commented Vladimir Putin on the inclusion of Jehovah's Witnesses in the list of extremist organizations. The corresponding question was asked of him at a meeting of the Council for the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights, which was held in Moscow on December 11, 2018. “Must at some point be much more liberal ... To treat members of all religions in the same way. [They should not] be credited to some destructive ones, not even to terrorist organizations. ”

[rocket]

I am thinking Mr. Putin's statement, "We should treat the representatives of all religions in the same way - this is true, but still, it is also necessary to take into account the country and the society in which we live," is saying that, if the religion is contrary to the State's goals and the State religion, it should not receive the same rights and privileges. 

[Tortuga]

10 minutes ago, rocket said:

I am thinking Mr. Putin's statement, "We should treat the representatives of all religions in the same way - this is true, but still, it is also necessary to take into account the country and the society in which we live," is saying that, if the religion is contrary to the State's goals and the State religion, it should not receive the same rights and privileges. 

Agreed. I assume he will try to appease the human rights activists by advocating each case should be examined. That would take forever...

[TrueTomHarley]

The ROC has insisted that it did not instigate the ban and I am inclined to believe them. That is not to say that they did not squeal with delight, like kids on Christmas morning, or that some instigators did not have Church connections. But the villainy stems from an anti-cult movement, with French connections, that is active in many lands. Conditions in Russia were ripe, that’s all, just like they were ripe for Communism 100 years ago.

 

Writing Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia took the better part of a year. There were few publicly available online sources that I did not read during this time, save only for those that were repetitive. The most telling report was one by Joshua Gill, a religion writer, revealing from where most of the trouble came. 

 

https://dailycaller.com/2017/07/23/the-french-connection-how-the-russian-orthodox-church-and-the-putin-administration-colluded-with-a-french-ngo-to-destroy-the-jehovahs-witnesses/

 

I tend to take President Putin’s remarks at face value. There is no reason that he has to say what he does, even expanding it to “JWs being also Christians.” When his Defense Minister, Lavrov, (also on the JW contact list) was asked a similar question months ago, he could not have answered more harshly than he did. I think Putin is being genuine, at last waking up to something that he has barely paid attention to.

 

A president is a busy guy. It is popularly sold that anything that goes down in a country will have his fingerprints all over it, but this is seldom so for matters of ‘low priority.’ Western media excoriates him, but we should not let the propaganda of one king mold our view of the other. I was very careful, in writing the book, not to do that.

In the event it was ever read by anyone that mattered, I did not want to sabotage it by being disrespectful or accusing.

 

However, I was not just being expedient. I honestly came to feel it not likely that he was one of the instigators. I admit that feeling wavered in view of the abuses of the last few months, but now it intensifies. Promisingly, he is not cut from the same cloth as many in high government. He was not born to privilege in the ruling class. He started from the ground up, as a regular office worker, and lived with his parents during the early days of his working life. He thus probably retains a feel for the interests of the ‘common man’ that his co-rulers do not.

 

In the end, it hardly matters, because ‘the heart of a king is as streams of water’ in Jehovah’s hands. But it helps if it is neither ice cubes nor steam to begin with.

Edited December 19, 2018 by TrueTomHarley

[TrueTomHarley]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:02 PM, Vinnie said:

” A little later, the President returned to the topic of persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses: “Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how to persecute them.”

 

To me he is saying , he tried to stop us, dissuade us in our work, jail us, say many lies about us and nothing works against us.  He maybe was thinking we would retaliate in some violent way, but we are not like that and he is baffled.

 

 

Did he say "I really do not understand how to persecute them" or "I really do not understand how they are persecuted"?

 

It is the million dollar question. It is a little like the Twilight Zone episode in which the earthlings were relieved to find the alien's handbook "To Serve Man." Ahh, it means their intentions are good, they said, but at the programs end, they discovered to their discomfort that it was a cookbook.

 

I opt for the second interpretation, and I have only heard the first one here. Given the context of the question, the first interpretation makes no sense.

 

Will it truly be but "ten days of persecution" for our brothers? The most ideal circumstance, and it may not turn on a dime, is for injustice to be reversed and restitution made, a circumstance which will surely be encouraged by the European Court of Human Rights. Thereafter, however, Witnesses will be circumspect in their ministry, maybe using cart witnessing a lot, for the President also said, that with 90% of the country of a certain religious orientation, one cannot throw everything overboard so as to please the "sects." It is enough not to persecute them, which he seems inclined not to do.

 

It will not necessarily be a bad thing for our brothers to focus on being tactful. That has long been the direction of theocratic training, anyhow. 

 

These days every wuss of an atheist is attacking the Church, particularly the Catholic Church, kicking the old lady while she is down. Do they think themselves bold? We kicked her while she was up! when it took real courage to do so. But we did so only so that she would release her iron grip on the people, so that other ideas could be freely presented. Once that goal was achieved, we stopped kicking. That's not to say that we do not 'raid each other's sheep,' but all we ever wanted was a level playing field for the free exchange of ideas. Whatever sins she has committed are against God, not us, and he will deal with it in his due time. It is for us to preach the good news and make disciples of those sheep-like who respond. Hopefully that aim can soon get back on track, as we show sensitivity to those of different views. 

[Bruceq]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did he say "I really do not understand how to persecute them" or "I really do not understand how they are persecuted"?

 

 

Post 13: 

Russian president questions persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses

VLADIMIR PUTIN: JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE ALSO CHRISTIANS, FOR WHICH THEY ARE PERSECUTED AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WELL

Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, 17 December 2018

[tucker]

Again, Carlos has restored reason to an explosive situation. If Putin had any inclination to do something about our brothers and sisters and their holdings, he would have done it. I see this as another ploy of Satan's to distract us. I see so much evidence that we are allowing ourselves to tire out. We must not allow that to happen! At Luke 21:28 Jesus urged us to recognize the signs and lift our heads up, but he did not tell us to slack off in our work. He encouraged us to work even harder, to save as many as possible. We can't be sleeping now.

[TrueTomHarley]

14 hours ago, carlos said:

If Putin keeps his word and our friends in Russia are freed from prison and given freedom to worship, I invite you all to a big barbecue in my home to celebrate it. 

Where do you live?

 

Actually I think the truth lies somewhere between my rosy forecast and your gloomy one. Pressure will ease. After all, if you were a Russian cop, would YOU beat a brother up after what he just said?

 

His statement makes it much harder to thumb his nose at the ECHR, even if he wants to, and he may not. He says that they are Christian, too. That is a huge reversal of the previous line & he didn’t have to say it. 

 

Still, he is consious of the majority, as Rocket said. How much freedom of worship will be restored remains to be seen. Maybe the brothers will have to tip-toe around for awhile but if he truly had evil intent, he would not have returned to the topic to say he doesn’t really understand why they are persecuted. Now let’s see how well he holds up as more sinister ones explain it to him and see whose resolve prevails.

 

Probably, Brother Sivulsky has it just right: he is surprised and cautiously optimistic.

Edited December 20, 2018 by TrueTomHarley

[Meditate!]

On 12/17/2018 at 7:36 PM, Naturale said:

Well the way it seems is that Putin benefits greatly from his relationship with the Orthodox Church. He sees the church as a key to his power so he has revived it.  It is the only Orthodox church backed by state power.  He has made great effort to get people back into the church.  Under Putin it has become a government agency, part of the state, a powerful political entity.   I guess witnesses are viewed as a threat to the church so ...

The witnesses are a three pronged threat:

 

We teach the Truth of the Bible so that is against the RO church teaching and would lower their influence/number

 

We do not fight and that influences army recruitment

 

We are not nationalistic so that , in Putin's eyes is against his patriotic ideal

 

It is viewed as subversive on many levels.. exactly how the Pharisees viewed Jesus.

John 11:48 If we let him go on this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.

[Bruceq]

Does Putin Know What’s Happening to Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia_.html

 

From Polygraph.info

 

Politicians lie all the time. The question is how Jehovah will use this.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Bruceq

[Bek]

Putin is a former KGB officer and is also allegedly a former gangster. When he came to power, he put his former KGB friends in key posts and boosted KGB powers. 

 

You can read about Putin's gangster past in books by a well-known Russia expert, Mark Galeotti. He has many articles on Russia and Putin. He has also recently published books on Putin's background.   

 

Some of you may have heard that in Soviet times, the Russian Orthodox church worked closely with the KGB and even spied in other countries under the disguise of priests.

 

Here in Russian-speaking parts of the world, many people say that the head of the Russian Orthodox Church is also a former KGB spy who got rich in the 1990s by selling tobacco.

 

Here is a guardian report about that: https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/feb/12/1

 

Former KGB general says that the Russian Orthodox Church is a department of the KGB and does its bidding. I could not find good English translations of his interview. The only one I think is more or less OK was from the below source: 

 

https://zionistreport.com/2017/07/video-ex-kgb-spy-exposes-russian-orthodox-church/  

 

Here is another current KGB officer who exposes the Russian Orthodox Church as a department of the KGB, which is known today as the FSB. The interview is in Russian. So you may have to use Google Translate. 

 

https://www.svoboda.org/a/29172866.html 

 

Unfortunately, there is very little info in English about our region, particularly Russia. If you could speak Russian, you would stop having rosy views about Putin and his church. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Bek

[carlos]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Actually I think the truth lies somewhere between my rosy forecast and your gloomy one. Pressure will ease. After all, if you were a Russian cop, would YOU beat a brother up after what he just said?

You are a better Christian than I am, Tom. You always expect the best from people. I don't believe a word a politician says. I'm not being facetious, I'm saying this completely seriously.

 

If I were a Russian cop I wouldn't mind that the president plays the naive in an international forum. I would follow my orders dictated by the minister that same president appointed. Which so far has been to confiscate KHs, interrupt peaceful meetings, beat Witnesses and bring them to prison. All of that because the minister of Justice, appointed by Putin too, pressured the Supreme Court judges to sentence a ridiculous ban that made the Russian judicial system a worldwide laughingstock. Poor Putin is so busy that he didn't know any of this. He didn't even read the newspaper or Newsweek nor even Russia Today. And it didn't even reach his ears that millions of letters addressed to him were received from every country in the world denouncing what was happening with the Russian Witnesses. The poor thing, he's so uninformed! And of course the Orthodox church didn't have anything to do with the whole affair. It was some sinister French secret organization that threatened the Supreme Court justices. I guess they threatened to put uranium in their coffee. Oh, wait, that's what Putin does with dissidents too!

[Dustparticle]

6 minutes ago, carlos said:

You are a better Christian than I am, Tom. You always expect the best from people. I don't believe a word a politician says. I'm not being facetious, I'm saying this completely seriously.

 

If I were a Russian cop I wouldn't mind that the president plays the naive in an international forum. I would follow my orders dictated by the minister that same president appointed. Which so far has been to confiscate KHs, interrupt peaceful meetings, beat Witnesses and bring them to prison. All of that because the minister of Justice, appointed by Putin too, pressured the Supreme Court judges to sentence a ridiculous ban that made the Russian judicial system a worldwide laughingstock. Poor Putin is so busy that he didn't know any of this. He didn't even read the newspaper or Newsweek nor even Russia Today. And it didn't even reach his ears that millions of letters addressed to him were received from every country in the world denouncing what was happening with the Russian Witnesses. The poor thing, he's so uninformed! And of course the Orthodox church didn't have anything to do with the whole affair. It was some sinister French secret organization that threatened the Supreme Court justices. I guess they threatened to put uranium in their coffee. Oh, wait, that's what Putin does with dissidents too!

 We Putin or the Russians are saying will go about face. He or the Russian Government might get millions of more letters. Daniel 11:44

[TrueTomHarley]

50 minutes ago, carlos said:

You are a better Christian than I am, Tom. You always expect the best from people.

 

Sometimes that is called naivety, Carlos. Sometimes it blows up in my face. Maybe it will here. It might be, not the mark of a better Christian, but a dumber one.

 

Still, at a news conference yesterday, he expressed concern over the prospect of nuclear war. “The danger of the situation escalating is being downplayed,” he said, adding that it “could really lead us to catastrophe.” If he loses sleep at night, I think it is not over the travails of a small religion. It is over the thought of the world going up in flames.

 

In some respects, it is similar to the situation with Pilate judging Jesus. Pilate knew he was being set up. He knew he was innocent. He worked rather hard to free him. But the liars were so insistent, even hinting that to release him would be treasonous, that he eventually caved. After all, it wasn’t his main concern. 

 

He tried to do the right thing. That’s how it is with many in the world. They try to do the right thing, but they only try so hard. When the going gets rough, they opt for expediency.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by TrueTomHarley