Death by circumcisian in Italy

[Qapla]

My brother and I were both born in Navy hospitals. We were both circumcised.

 

Neither of us has had any ill effects from the procedure - nor do we wish it had not been done.

 

I have four daughters so I did not have to face that decision for my children.

 

The way I see it, it is not condemned in the Bible - nor is it required of a Christian - so, I do not understand all the "importance" placed on something that has no real bearing on everlasting life ... but, that is me

[carlos]

It must be a cultural thing. Nobody is circumcised here, unless they're immigrants with different customs or they had to have it done for medical reasons. Other than that, there are no practical reasons for that surgery. If Jehovah created men with a foreskin, I guess it can stay there.

[rocket]

I know quite a few families that have it done to their baby boys simply because it is easier to keep the boy clean and less chance of infection.

[Hope]

One day, the same attitude about beards will appear...   

[Qapla]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

If Jehovah created men with a foreskin, I guess it can stay there.

 

And, if Jehovah could require the nation if Israel to remove the foreskin, there can't be anything wrong with having it done from His viewpoint.

 

Of course, it is not required of Christians - but ... neither is it forbidden.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Qapla

[Jeanie]

3 hours ago, Thesauron said:

For most men the cancer risk even as uncircumcised is extremely low. I don’t know about men with such cancers in their family, but for most, good hygiene is enough.

Johan I think you are right about that.  A lot has to do with good hygiene .  I use to have a ton of information on the subject, but that was 24 years ago and I didn't keep the info we were given.      I wasn't trying to come across as confrontational I just wanted you to know that there are reasons that people choose to make the decisions they do beyond what the "typical" family has to consider.  

[kejedo]

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis. This study is 31 years old, and is cited in this research (not opinion).  http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/   Yes, of course, it is every parent's personal opinion.  Somewhat OT: My oldest son also could not swallow food. HIs well esteemed pediatrician told me to keep feeding him solids as he had been solely breast fed for 12 months. MY baby had projectile vomiting and shook and shuddered every time he tried to eat solids. Took him to a specialist at Mass General Hospital and baby boy appeared to be in kidney failure (due to some type of backed up protein from undigested food, don't remember the name of the syndrome, but his scores came back dangerously over the charts.) I was told to put him back on full breast feeding. Eventually he started eating tiny bits of food at around 17 months. He still has many food allergies, verified over the years through experience and medical conclusions.  I wish my boys were born in Spain where uncircumcised children would not be persecuted in school gym showers, even though, as I have read, US rates  are close to 50/50 for intact vs cut. Most physicians do NOT have their sons circumcised:  circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/circumcision-facts. Why the discussion? As Jehovah's people we are interested in making informed medical decisions. 

[tekmantwo]

3 hours ago, carlos said:

If Jehovah created men with a foreskin, I guess it can stay there. 

Which, inevitably, leads us to the question,

 

Will it grow back?

[Jeanie]

4 minutes ago, kejedo said:

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis. This study is 31 years old, and is cited in this research (not opinion).  http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/   Yes, of course, it is every parent's personal opinion.  Somewhat OT: My oldest son also could not swallow food. HIs well esteemed pediatrician told me to keep feeding him solids as he had been solely breast fed for 12 months. MY baby had projectile vomiting and shook and shuddered every time he tried to eat solids. Took him to a specialist at Mass General Hospital and baby boy appeared to be in kidney failure (due to some type of backed up protein from undigested food, don't remember the name of the syndrome, but his scores came back dangerously over the charts.) I was told to put him back on full breast feeding. Eventually he started eating tiny bits of food at around 17 months. He still has many food allergies, verified over the years through experience and medical conclusions.  I wish my boys were born in Spain where uncircumcised children would not be persecuted in school gym showers, even though, as I have read, US rates  are close to 50/50 for intact vs cut. Most physicians do NOT have their sons circumcised:  circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/circumcision-facts. Why the discussion? As Jehovah's people we are interested in making informed medical decisions. 

Pauline, I am glad you did some research on cancer of the penis, it never hurts to be informed about rare cancers. I want to emphasis that I am not saying that every parent should have their male child circumcised or that my way is the only right way. It was a decision we felt strongly about 24 years ago for our boys, and I still stand behind that decision today.  I didn't want to take a chance on my sons developing cancer and the possibility that I could prevent it helped us reach that decision.  We did our research then and felt confident about the doctors recommendation.  We choose to make our decision not based on what another group does or does not choose to do for their children but through research, personal experience from what their Grandpa went through with surgery and losing the majority of his penis, and doctor guidance.  As Jehovah's people we are definitely interested in making informed decisions based on research and not pure emotion.  I will state it again that it was a good decision then, and I would make it again should I have another male child.  Again, I am not saying that you are right or wrong for your decision or anyone else's decision.  I am sharing the point of view from a Mom that did choose circumcision.  

 

I do hate that any child would be persecuted in the school gym showers, whether they are circumcised or not.  

 

I am glad that we can both have a difference of opinion on the matter and not be offended that our choices are different.

 

 

[Brother_Bliss]

12 hours ago, Hope said:

One day, the same attitude about beards will appear...   

Beat me to it

[carlos]

11 hours ago, Qapla said:

And, if Jehovah could require the nation if Israel to remove the foreskin, there can't be anything wrong with having it done from His viewpoint.

 

Of course, it is not required of Christians - but ... neither is it forbidden.

John, maybe we are not understanding each other. I'm not saying that circumcision is wrong, just unnecessary. I'm sure you agree. I'm not circumcised and I have never had a problem with my intimate hygiene.

 

For ancient Israelites it was a religious sign. For us, it doesn't have any religious value and apparently it doesn't have any practical use. If you want to do it for esthetics or for cultural reasons or whatever, that's ok. Of course, if your family has a history of penis cancer and circumcision can help prevent it as sister Jeanie explained, then absolutely go for it.

 

 

[Qapla]

Carlos,

 

I appreciate your posts and agree with some of your points 

 

As for circumcision being "unnecessary", the same could be said of pierced ears and shaved heads.

 

I guess my point is that, to me, this thread has taken a "Circumcision is WRONG" direction ... thus my posts that it is not against the Bible

 

I apologize if I misunderstood the tenor of the thread and/or if my posts were misunderstood

Edited April 12, 2019 by Qapla

[Thesauron]

Carlos,
 
I appreciate your posts and agree with some of your points 
 
As for circumcision being "unnecessary", the same could be said of pierced ears and shaved heads.
 
I guess my point is that, to me, this thread has taken a "Circumcision is WRONG" direction ... thus my posts that it is not against the Bible
 
I apologize if I misunderstood the tenor of the thread and/or if my posts were misunderstood

If you shave your head, it’ll grow back. Very few parents would pierce the ears of their newborn babies. Also, while circumcision isn’t wrong, it’s a largely unnecessary surgery, and you can safely leave your boys alone these days. But if you want to do it because your culture demands it, be my guest. Also, if you as an adult want to do it because you think it looks good, sure, go ahead. (How does it differ from a tattoo, though?)

[Qapla]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

How does it differ from a tattoo, though?

 

Did Jehovah ever require, request, recommend or suggest any of His people get a tattoo?

 

We need to remember, when the circumcision issue was raised in the first century the decision was reached that it was not "required" anymore - not that it was "unnecessary" or wrong in any way, shape of form - which is the impression I get from this thread. 

 

It just seems to me that, the fact that Jehovah allowed/required circumcision, shows that He is not opposed to the practice ... so, we should not say that it should or should not be done - and calling it "unnecessary surgery" could be viewed as saying "don't do it - it is wrong".

 

Also, it is not that uncommon in our area for people to have their small child (even infant) ears pierced while the child is too little to remember the pain.

 

 

 

I think I will leave this thread now ...

Edited April 12, 2019 by Qapla

[kejedo]

13 hours ago, Jeanie said:

I am glad that we can both have a difference of opinion on the matter and not be offended that our choices are different.

 

 

Dear Sis Jeanie, I am so sorry to hear of the pain you and your family went through when your grandfather had cancer. I'm glad we have the hope of seeing our dead loved ones again - Good reason for us to be thankful and meditative during this Memorial season. 

[kejedo]

1 hour ago, Qapla said:

I guess my point is that, to me, this thread has taken a "Circumcision is WRONG" direction ... thus my posts that it is not against the Bible

 

I apologize if I misunderstood the tenor of the thread and/or if my posts were misunderstood

I think this has been a well sustained and thought provoking thread. Although it will not affect me personally, I hadn't thought of this before, but I wonder if those resurrected will be more like the perfect man Adam or those who were affected by the covenant for circumcision. The references I made included an article from the Watchtower Library as well as medical research and others.  Hope I have not come off as being snippy.                  YS

[Thesauron]

 
Did Jehovah ever require, request, recommend or suggest any of His people get a tattoo?
 
We need to remember, when the circumcision issue was raised in the first century the decision was reached that it was not "required" anymore - not that it was "unnecessary" or wrong in any way, shape of form - which is the impression I get from this thread. 
 
It just seems to me that, the fact that Jehovah allowed/required circumcision, shows that He is not opposed to the practice ... so, we should not say that it should or should not be done - and calling it "unnecessary surgery" could be viewed as saying "don't do it - it is wrong".
 
Also, it is not that uncommon in our area for people to have their small child (even infant) ears pierced while the child is too little to remember the pain.
 
 
 
I think I will leave this thread now ...

These days it is an unnecessary surgery. It is not wrong, but not required. (In the way that you are mutilating a body for little or no medical reason is a bit like a tattoo in a way, in some respects.)

If it is common in your area to pierce babies, then go ahead. (I don’t understand why you would, but, hey, what do I know.)

[Hope]

It's quite common for baby girls in the States to have their ears pierced. For some, it's the easiest way to tell they ARE a girl.. 😉  Check Indian babies - they're often decked in all sorts of jewelry; bracelets, earrings, anklets.  So pretty!

 

My ears were pierced when I was five, just before kindergarten.  If I had a girl child, I'd probably pierce her ears as a baby - I think it looks cute.  

 

For me, it's up there with dressing her any way I choose.  If she doesn't like earrings when she gets older, she doesn't have to wear them.  But while I'm making the choices, well... I'm making the choices.

 

Same with boys and circumcision.  It's completely up to the parents how they want to bring up their kids, as long as they're not abusing them.  I don't believe that circumcision or piercing ears falls under that category.   It's nobody's business. 

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Hope

[Wanda Hill]

So, I'm going to jump in here..Many years ago, I read an article that stated that women whose husband had been circumcised was less likely to get cervical cancer...It was many years ago, so I couldn't say that it is true, but if you think about it, it could be. As a nurse for many years, I saw some really gross stuff..

[tekmantwo]

3 hours ago, kejedo said:

being snippy

 

You're such a cut up...

Edited April 12, 2019 by tekmantwo

[Lee49]

3 hours ago, Wanda Hill said:

So, I'm going to jump in here..Many years ago, I read an article that stated that women whose husband had been circumcised was less likely to get cervical cancer...It was many years ago, so I couldn't say that it is true, but if you think about it, it could be. As a nurse for many years, I saw some really gross stuff..

Doctors use to have tonsils  removed on most children also, you know, preventative  care! 😲

[kejedo]

5 hours ago, Wanda Hill said:

So, I'm going to jump in here..Many years ago, I read an article that stated that women whose husband had been circumcised was less likely to get cervical cancer...It was many years ago, so I couldn't say that it is true, but if you think about it, it could be. As a nurse for many years, I saw some really gross stuff..

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

"It is now clear that the major risk factors for both penile cancer and cervical cancer are the use of tobacco,22,31 which spreads carcinogens throughout the body via the bloodstream, and the presence of the human papillomavirus,35 which is communicated through sexual activity.

Abraham Wolbarst's promotional claims that circumcision prevented penile cancer were false and mislead the medical community for decades.34 Circumcision does not prevent penile cancer in men and it does not prevent cervical cancer in the female partner.

However, phimosis, or a non-retractile foreskin, is a risk factor in adult males who are sexually active, because a non-retractile foreskin is more difficult to clean. There are many non-traumatic, non-distructive methods for conservative effective treatment of phimosis available to the male with phimosis. Circumcision is neither required nor recommended to treat phimosis. Cancer may form on the circumcision scar.16,24

A new human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine offers protection against both penile and cervical cancers.64 Fear of cancer cannot be used to support the practice of male circumcision."

 

Of course, nobody is trying to influence any parents who have already made up their minds. But younger ones who do not have any sons yet may want to read the researched medical updates. Older ones like myself do keep up on medical research. My four older stepsons were circumcised, and  I imagine their sons were, also. I never asked about my darling grandchildren who call me "Glam-ma."  If my three younger, uncircumcised sons, were expecting, I would suggest some research before making their decisions. It's their own decision to make. I did nothing like my mother, who bottle fed and circumcised. I also used cloth diapers, unlike my older sister. 

Edited April 13, 2019 by kejedo

[Wanda Hill]

Thank you for the updated information.