Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[SteveAus]

5 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

How  do we know for sure that P&S will be proclaimed before false religion goes down? Could it be after false religion goes down, but before Armageddon?

perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question, but I thought the order of events was made clear in yesterday's WT study 'Learn From Bible Prophecy'

"A proclamation of “peace and security” will be made. (1 Thess. 5:3) Then the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and wipe it out. (Rev. 17:16, 17) They will then attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:18, 19) These events will lead directly to the final war of Armageddon. (Rev. 16:14, 16)"

[Dustparticle]

4 hours ago, mjcabz said:

Jehovah given FS a hint what will be the first event before GT. It is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 before the sudden destruction(GT) the people must declare "Peace and Security" just like people sleeping at night with full confidence that no thief coming. Then Following the events of GT even we didn't read the exact order of events but we are sure that destruction of BTG take first than Armageddon because BTG will be destroyed by Wild Beast (UN) (Revelation 17:16,17) after that the coalition of nation (Gog of Magog) will attack Jehovah's people resulting to Armageddon. And now as we observed the world event it is really connected. The preaching of hailstone is not yet sure where in GT will happened. We don't know yet. 😉 

 

Sorry for long post.

We do not know how long the GT will last. If the hailstone message set the nations to go after us then that will be at the end of GT. 

[Ahuvah]

The FDS has said that the devastating of bbtg signifies the beginning of the GT.

They need the backing of religion for the proclamation then they turn on her.

Remembering too the sealing of the anointed happens just prior to the GT.

Geoff Jackson's visual timeline was awesome in this regard.

[Pjdriver]

10 hours ago, SteveAus said:

perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question, but I thought the order of events was made clear in yesterday's WT study 'Learn From Bible Prophecy'

"A proclamation of “peace and security” will be made. (1 Thess. 5:3) Then the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and wipe it out. (Rev. 17:16, 17) They will then attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:18, 19) These events will lead directly to the final war of Armageddon. (Rev. 16:14, 16)"

 

Steve and others, that is not the question. I understand what the FS says about the order of events and the scripture about Peace then sudden destruction.

 

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

 

NOTE: Im not saying the FS is wrong....not at all and I’m not an apostate by any stretch of the imagination..... Im just asking how I could prove that exact order of events.

I understand Armageddon must be last, that is clear from the Scriptures but P&S and BTG is not as clear to me. Please don’t take offense by the question. 

[Dages]

As we often say, the "order of events" could be different about P&S and BtG and signs in heavens, etc...

 

Quote

What will happen next? The Bible does not tell us the exact order of events, but some events will probably happen at the same time.

 

Anyway, the main event we are tracking isn't P&S but the attack on BtG. Because P&S has been in everyone's mouth for decades, but the attack on BtG is a real revolution

Edited October 22, 2023 by Dages

[Michał]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Steve and others, that is not the question. I understand what the FS says about the order of events and the scripture about Peace then sudden destruction.

 

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

 

NOTE: Im not saying the FS is wrong....not at all and I’m not an apostate by any stretch of the imagination..... Im just asking how I could prove that exact order of events.

I understand Armageddon must be last, that is clear from the Scriptures but P&S and BTG is not as clear to me. Please don’t take offense by the question. 

I was just wondering About the same thing. How by using only the Bible can I explain that order to someone I meet in the service?

[mjcabz]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Steve and others, that is not the question. I understand what the FS says about the order of events and the scripture about Peace then sudden destruction.

 

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

 

NOTE: Im not saying the FS is wrong....not at all and I’m not an apostate by any stretch of the imagination..... Im just asking how I could prove that exact order of events.

I understand Armageddon must be last, that is clear from the Scriptures but P&S and BTG is not as clear to me. Please don’t take offense by the question. 

Just read God's Kingdom Rule book Chapter 21

[coolbrz731]

2 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

Steve and others, that is not the question. I understand what the FS says about the order of events and the scripture about Peace then sudden destruction.

 

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

If you look at the scriptural telling of the destruction of BTG and armageddon, it only speaks of BTG as being sudden.  Rev17:8 - In one day her plagues will come.

Rev 17:10 - In one hour your judgement has arrived.

Rev. 17:17 - In one hour your great riches have been devastated.

However, to my knowledge, Armageddon is never seen as being sudden.  That's why some of us old timers used to think Armageddon could be weeks or months.

[truce]

7 minutes ago, coolbrz731 said:

If you look at the scriptural telling of the destruction of BTG and armageddon, it only speaks of BTG as being sudden.  Rev17:8 - In one day her plagues will come.

Rev 17:10 - In one hour your judgement has arrived.

Rev. 17:17 - In one hour your great riches have been devastated.

However, to my knowledge, Armageddon is never seen as being sudden.  That's why some of us old timers used to think Armageddon could be weeks or months.

Could easily be days or weeks or just one day, all according to God's timetable.

Edited October 22, 2023 by truce

[coolbrz731]

1 minute ago, truce said:

Could easily be days or weeks or just one day, all according to God's timetable.

For the record, I was a kid when the friends in my congregation would tell me this.  Living in southern California, I used to freak out every time I heard thunder at night, wondering if Armageddon had begun.  We now know that Armageddon is "Jehovah's rescue mission", and he would never allow it to be long enough to traumatize even the smallest of us.

[Dhanyel]

3 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Steve and others, that is not the question. I understand what the FS says about the order of events and the scripture about Peace then sudden destruction.

 

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

 

NOTE: Im not saying the FS is wrong....not at all and I’m not an apostate by any stretch of the imagination..... Im just asking how I could prove that exact order of events.

I understand Armageddon must be last, that is clear from the Scriptures but P&S and BTG is not as clear to me. Please don’t take offense by the question. 

 

We have the biblical basis, this and the current understanding, peace and security will be a sign that Jehovah's day is about to begin,it is propaganda coming from the Devil, while the destruction that follows comes from Jehovah himself when he uses the UN to carry out his thoughts.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.  2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.  3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

 

sudden destruction is to be instantly on them: Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of “peace and security” and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry. It will be sudden and inescapable. The Greek phrase contains two terms (rendered “sudden” and “be instantly on”) to emphasize the striking suddenness with which the destruction will come. A similar combination of terms appears at Lu 21:34, where the coming of Jehovah’s day is described.

just like birth pains on a pregnant woman: Labor pains come suddenly; there is no way of foreknowing the exact day and hour. However, Paul’s metaphor stresses the suddenness and inevitability of the coming destruction. Once labor pains begin, a woman knows that an unstoppable process has begun.—Compare study note on Mt 24:8.

they will by no means escape: Paul here uses two negatives (lit., “not not escape”) to emphasize that it will be impossible for the wicked to escape the “sudden destruction” that will come “instantly on them.”

c

Ps 37:10; Jer 8:11

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Dhanyel

[booboo]

5 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

My brother, great question. Perhaps by considering the context of v3. In Verse 2 Paul is talking about Jehovahs day, which is when he begins to destroy his enemies  (Zeph 1:14-18) Paul is saying That day begins with the cry of P&S.  

So reasoning that BTG is Gods enemy then he will destroy her after the cry of P&S not before. 

I like this article on this topic

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981844?q=peace+and+security&p=par

w81 11/15 pp. 10-15

“Peace and Security!”—Then “Sudden Destruction”

[Dolce vita]

Couldn't simple logic explain everything?

 

According to what Paul tells the Thessalonians, the cry of peace and security is just a signal adressed to christians for what should interest us most: the great day of Jehovah. It begins with false religion Revelation tells us, the rest will follow. So to have an idea of the starting point, a bit like when Jesus gave a sign to flee Jerusalem, Jehovah gives us, his people, a signal: the cry P&S, to understand that it is over with TicTock Tic tock. Finally we are there! The people of the world will understand nothing. For them, a new era of peace and global security is beginning. But we will know that the cellars or attics are ready to welcome us. If the warning signal for destruction is heard AFTER the destruction, it no longer makes sense, does it? Everyone would be lost in their reading of the events. This is how I generally explain it to the people I study with and it doesn't go any further.

[Ahuvah]

Using the scriptures is always the best route if the householder gives us time to. Revelation 17 is my go to. It highlights the prostitute and that the beast is very much alive and in power at the time of turning on her. Since, peace & security  comes first in whatever form that proves to be, we know the FDS has the Scriptural timeline in sequence. What may become difficult here is explaining who the beast is and who the prostitute is and why, we, Jehovah’s people are not part of the entity that is the prostitute.  And if someone is patient enough to stand through this ... then we have someone who is searching for the truth and will be willing to put the work in. Like the watchtower said yesterday (for NZ) that the reinforcing of scriptural truth is up to us to put in the hard work and prove it to ourselves.

But yeah I think Revelation 17 is an excellent chapter to start a scriptural journey on. (On this topic at least)

Edited October 22, 2023 by Stormswift

[Dhanyel]

The text of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 itself is highly explanatory, the text shows the sequence, when they are saying peace and security, sudden destruction will instantly come upon them (Babylon).  If it were before, it would be written, destruction will come and then they will say peace and security, in other words, it doesn't make any sense, first peace and security and then the destruction of Babylon!

[Michał]

1 hour ago, booboo said:

My brother, great question. Perhaps by considering the context of v3. In Verse 2 Paul is talking about Jehovahs day, which is when he begins to destroy his enemies  (Zeph 1:14-18) Paul is saying That day begins with the cry of P&S.  

So reasoning that BTG is Gods enemy then he will destroy her after the cry of P&S not before. 

I like this article on this topic

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981844?q=peace+and+security&p=par

w81 11/15 pp. 10-15

“Peace and Security!”—Then “Sudden Destruction”

I needed that. Thank you!

[mjcabz]

And it has also a pattern like 607 BCE and 70 BCE GT before the destruction of Jerusalem, the people are always crying for peace, but they are wrong (Jeremiah 6:14) Then we can also say that future GT is the same, before it happens it has a cry for P&S ( 1 Thes 5:3) And that's the time where BtG's full blast of riding the wild beast. And then Rev 17:16,17 happen, the start of sudden destruction (Great Tribulation) 

[New World Explorer]

8 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

What I’m asking is, how do we know by use of scriptures that BTG could not be destroyed first, then Peace and Security,  then sudden destruction. (Armageddon).  

For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 
 

We have here a reference to Jehovah's day.

To identify the order we need to have clear understanding of the term Jehovah's day. 

The Scriptures describe the day of Jehovah as one of battle, darkness, fury, distress, anguish, alarm, and desolation

Therefore peace and security proclamation was given to us to identify period of time when Jehovah's day will begin. 

Further understanding how Jehovah's day will culminate, automatically eliminates this order: Destruction of religion, then peace and security, because attack on false religion it's already part of the Day of Jehovah. (he puts the thought)  and Jehovah clearly gave us a marker that before sudden destruction and his day of Jehovah nations will be saying Peace and Security. 
 

In the major fulfillment of Malachi’s prophecy, “the day of Jehovah” is a period of time characterized by “great tribulation.” Jesus foretold: “Then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Matthew 24:21) Think of the distress the world has already seen, especially since 1914. (Matthew 24:7-12) Why, World War II alone took over 50 million lives! Yet, “the great tribulation” will see calamities that will dwarf such troubles. That event, the same as the day of Jehovah, ends with Armageddon, bringing to a close the last days of this wicked system.—2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13; Revelation 7:14; 16:14, 16.
4 By the end of that day of Jehovah, Satan’s world and its supporters will have been annihilated. First to go will be all false religion. Then Jehovah’s judgment will be expressed against Satan’s economic and political systems. W 02 5/1
 

[truce]

2 hours ago, booboo said:

My brother, great question. Perhaps by considering the context of v3. In Verse 2 Paul is talking about Jehovahs day, which is when he begins to destroy his enemies  (Zeph 1:14-18) Paul is saying That day begins with the cry of P&S.  

So reasoning that BTG is Gods enemy then he will destroy her after the cry of P&S not before. 

I like this article on this topic

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981844?q=peace+and+security&p=par

w81 11/15 pp. 10-15

“Peace and Security!”—Then “Sudden Destruction”

Actually, Jehovah's Day begins with the destruction of BTG. "Peace and Security" is only a precursor. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by truce

[Percy]

2 hours ago, Dhanyel said:

The text of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 itself is highly explanatory, the text shows the sequence, when they are saying peace and security, sudden destruction will instantly come upon them (Babylon).  If it were before, it would be written, destruction will come and then they will say peace and security, in other words, it doesn't make any sense, first peace and security and then the destruction of Babylon!

It is a slight change in order as it was felt BtG would be stripped clean and destroyed first, thus P&S would be proclaimed though not necessarily implemented. The nations were eager to get at her riches.

Correct me if I am wrong, was 1933 proclaimed a P&S year by the Catholic Church? Hitler gained power in the Germany that year.

[Ahuvah]

"How many Bible prophecies remain to be fulfilled before God destroys this present system? Very few! One of the last is at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, which states: “While they are talking of peace and security, all at once calamity is upon them.”  (New English Bible) This shows that the end of this system will begin “while they are talking.” Unforeseen by the world, destruction will strike when least expected, when the attention of humans is on their hoped-for peace and security."

But I've heard the word 'proclamation ' is there a difference between a proclamation and talks?

Sorry forgot link.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Does-God-Really-Care-About-Us/How-We-Know-We-Are-in-the-Last-Days/

Edited October 22, 2023 by Stormswift

[Ahuvah]

Synonyms & Similar 

• ruling
• edict
• pronouncement
• promulgation
• notice
• signification
• announcement
• utterance
• fiat
• rescript
• pronunciamento
• annunciation
• bull
• notification
• communiqué
• advertisement
• ukase
• bulletin
• ad
• posting
• message
• diktat
• release
• billing
• broadcast
• advertising
• report
• advert
• telecast
• newscast
• promotion
• communication
• campaign
• come-on
• commercial
• dispatch
• pitch
• propaganda
• publicity
• blurb
• word
• spot
• cablecast
• buildup
• plugola
• promo
• boost
• plug
• ballyhoo

The above are synonyms for 'proclamation', while we all tend towards something like a ruling or a pronouncement. Other alternatives could also fit. A plug for peace? Propaganda is there. My personal favourite 'ballyhoo'

Edited October 22, 2023 by Stormswift

[Doug]

11 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

 

The above are synonyms for 'proclamtion', while we all tend towards something like a ruling or a pronouncement. Other alternatives could also fit. A plug for peace? Propaganda is there. My personal favourite 'ballyhoo'

 

Ballyhoo  -  "Extravagant publicity or fuss".

 

Example  -  "After all the ballyhoo, the film was a flop".

 

Extravagant publicity is a great description.  The word that brings to mind is Hype.  As in  -  "The concert didn't live up to the hype."

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, Stormswift said:

"How many Bible prophecies remain to be fulfilled before God destroys this present system? Very few! One of the last is at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, which states: “While they are talking of peace and security, all at once calamity is upon them.”  (New English Bible) This shows that the end of this system will begin “while they are talking.” Unforeseen by the world, destruction will strike when least expected, when the attention of humans is on their hoped-for peace and security."

But I've heard the word 'proclamation ' is there a difference between a proclamation and talks?

Sorry forgot link.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Does-God-Really-Care-About-Us/How-We-Know-We-Are-in-the-Last-Days/

Proclamation would demand certain types of achievements accomplished, for example. Yes we have solved this war and that one … proclamation feels more defined than saying, talking, discussing. I have always meditated on the scripture why it is worded as “saying” rather than statement in line of proclamation. Perhaps… perhaps… hmmm, there will be surprise in that regard. 

[Sofia]

According to the Bible hub:

 Contemporary English Version
People will think they are safe and secure. But destruction will suddenly strike them like the pains of a woman about to give birth. And they won't escape