Do animals really have those emotions or are we humanizing their actions?

[Qapla]

This is the topic Richard suggested ... since it is related to how God made man and animals ... it seems this would be an appropriate forum for this discussion

 

 

[Miss Bea]

A bit of both, I think!

[tekmantwo]

The inspired view of this is found at 2 Peter 2:12  "...like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed..."

 

 

Animals are 'unreasoning' and 'act on instinct'

[jps]

emotions, yes

agape, no way

 

[Qapla]

To help understand the reason for possible confusion about this subject

 

anthropomorphize : to attribute human characteristics or behavior to anything not human like a god, animal, or object

 

 

[Donna]

Peace for a Thousand Years—And Beyond! (ws12 9/15 pp. 9-14)

Scientists who have lived close to wild animals and studied them have found that all mammals have emotions. We know that animals become frightened and angry when they are threatened, but can they show affection? The scientists said that when mammals raise their young, they show great tenderness.

 

 

Getting a Balanced View of Pets (g72 7/8 pp. 5-8)

True, animals play, they display emotions such as pleasure, depression, affection, fear, anger and anxiety.

[dozerman5676]

3 hours ago, Donna said:

Getting a Balanced View of Pets (g72 7/8 pp. 5-8)

I totally agree with the info in this Awake.  I also know that in the last 51 years since it was written lots of research has been done on animals.  There are thousands of YouTube videos of animals.... all types of animals being friends with each other, mothering babies that are not from the same kind.  Cats and birds playing, Elephants and dogs as best friends, They are Jehovah's creation and a gift from him for us.  He even had Adam name them.....  I just lost a dog after 14 years and I have to admit I'm not over it.  She truly was a friend.  Have you seen dogs that can talk now?  They put buzzers on the floor and each one says a different word so the dog can touch them and build short sentence's.  Some if these smart dogs will tell you what they want swim but not a bath).

[Tortuga]

4 minutes ago, dozerman5676 said:

I just lost a dog after 14 years and I have to admit I'm not over it

Sorry to hear about your loss 😞

[Jimi-L]

 

11 hours ago, tekmantwo said:

The inspired view of this is found at 2 Peter 2:12  "...like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed..."

 

 

Animals are 'unreasoning' and 'act on instinct'

 

The context should be kept in mind in the text. It compares those who behave incorrectly to animals, but does not claim that animals do not have feelings.  We also do not claim that all animals can be hunted down by humans, even if the text gives the impression of that. The adjective ἄλογα of course describes the irrationality of animals compared to humans. Animals cannot know Jehovah or choose to worship him, nor can they learn to write, read, or deal with deep, spiritual things.

 

So yes, animals lack MANY  human qualities, but love and affection are still on the list. There is plenty of evidence for this. The idea that all these feelings there are just some sort of mechanisms necessary for survival or something else, contradicts the evidence. 

 

For example dogs; every last person who have/had one, knows what im talking about. In dogs and humans (in fact all mammals) the behaviours that bond individuals are maintained through a cocktail of molecules that are absorbed in different ways by the brain. Many of these are regulated by brain hormones that include vasopressin and oxytocin, one could say it’s the  “love” molecule. In all mammals (including humans) production of this hormone spikes up when we are sexually aroused, or while giving birth and while nursing offspring. It also rises when we see those that we love, particularly our closest family members. Interestingly, dogs respond with an oxytocin surge not only when interacting with one another, but also (unlike nearly all other mammals, however this information is limited by the fact that most animals are not in close interaction with humans though, so we do not know how they would react) when interacting with humans.

 

The animal kingdom is full of examples of close bonds. Our pets sure seem to love us. Elephants appear to mourn their dead. These examples make a case for animals having emotional attachments, not unlike companionate love in humans. But there are also examples that seem like romantic love. For instance, albatrosses keep coming back to the same partner for their whole lives. This is true especially when it comes to nidicolous animals (they are generally monogamous). Its like a biblical marriage - they are forming a fixed pair. Perhaps this is most extreme with eagles and swans - if one spouse dies, the other can die of grief right after. Similar sensations have also been observed in wolves and dogs led by an alpha male and an alpha female. Some other events may also trigger this. Example 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8444185/Swan-dies-broken-heart-teenage-yobs-killed-unborn-cygnets-smashing-eggs.html 

 

A pet may also show grief and mourn when its owner dies.

 

https://lovecatsworld.com/toldo-a-loyal-italian-cat/ 

 

You can get the simplest example when you search for videos on YouTube with the search cute x (animal).

They grieve, they play, they save each other's lives, they rejoice, they help each other,... all this goes well with the fact that they can love. How it differs from the love that we humans know is of course a different matter, but that doesn't mean that animals can't love. as said, there is plenty of evidence for that. A procedure, an action that is very understandable when we know who our loving Creator is. ❤️

 

 

 

 

[Shawnster]

5 hours ago, Jimi-L said:

We also do not claim that all animals can be hunted down by humans, even if the text gives the impression of that.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with hunting. 

 

*** w07 12/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

Questions From Readers

How should a Christian view hunting and fishing?

The Bible does not condemn hunting or fishing. (Deuteronomy 14:4, 5, 9, 20; Matthew 17:27; John 21:6) Still, Christians who hunt or fish need to consider several Scriptural principles.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2007887&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=3

[carlos]

That higher animals have some emotions is unquestionable: fear, pain, pleasure, delight, joy...

 

But it's easy to misinterpret animal emotions as if they were human. For example, it has been mentioned that nursing dogs and cats show great tenderness towards their pups. That's true. But at the same time they don't hesitate to reject and abandon a pup which is sick or that has a weird smell because people have been fondling it. So while it's clear those animal moms have a certain attachment, it cannot be compared to human love for children.

 

 

[Hotteok]

Ideal - Disney animal cartoon

Reality - BBC documentary 

 

except for dogs. 

They seem to really love us and be unable to forget their masters.

They even know it when they are abandoned and feel deeply hurt.. need years to be fully healed. 

[carlos]

My dogs have some degree of attachment to each other and they are happy to see each other if they are separated for some time. Yet if one of them is sick or suffering, the others won't move a finger to help. And I have never seen a dog sharing its food with someone else! In fact, as friends as they are, they have seriously injured one another when one tried to eat from the other's plate. You can't really say they love their fellow pack members.

 

Dogs also perceive injustice, but only when they are are the losing party. If you give a treat to one and not the other, that one will complain. But if you give one two treats and the other none, the one who received two will never give up one to the other.

 

They may reflect to some degree some of Jehovah's qualities, because they are creations by Him, but certainly they were not created in God's image.

[coolbrz731]

I heard a story about one of those gorillas that was really good with sign language.  One day, the father and the daughter got into an argument.  The daughter basically upheld the father's curfew despite her needing to get something for him before a store closed.  She did this out of spite because she was angry at him.  While they were arguing, the gorilla kept signing to the father that he is a bad man.  When the father finally told the gorilla to explain why he was a bad man, the gorilla said that he was yelling at his daughter even though she obeyed him.  She was the good girl.  The father tried to explain the situation to the gorilla, but all it could understand was that she obeyed, even though it caused hardship.  It couldn't understand right and wrong.  Only obedience and disobedience.  After several minutes, the gorilla finally had a temper tantrum because it couldn't understand.  This is one of the many differences between us and animals when it comes to emotions and understanding concepts behind the emotions.

[Tortuga]

9 hours ago, coolbrz731 said:

I heard a story about one of those gorillas that was really good with sign language.  One day, the father and the daughter got into an argument.  The daughter basically upheld the father's curfew despite her needing to get something for him before a store closed.  She did this out of spite because she was angry at him.  While they were arguing, the gorilla kept signing to the father that he is a bad man.  When the father finally told the gorilla to explain why he was a bad man, the gorilla said that he was yelling at his daughter even though she obeyed him.  She was the good girl.  The father tried to explain the situation to the gorilla, but all it could understand was that she obeyed, even though it caused hardship.  It couldn't understand right and wrong.  Only obedience and disobedience.  After several minutes, the gorilla finally had a temper tantrum because it couldn't understand.  This is one of the many differences between us and animals when it comes to emotions and understanding concepts behind the emotions.

Arguing in front of a gorilla sounds like a pretty hairy situation.

[Joey]

We have had lots of really nice dogs over the years and then my son got a pure bred  German Shepherd. I've never experienced such love, attention and caring before. She comforts me when I cry, she stands beside me and helps me stand up after I do my sit ups, she's always smiling and happy but she groans when I'm upset and does all she can to make me feel better. 

She 'talks' to me endlessly, I know exactly when she wants out to potty or needs food or water,  she nudges me with her nose to the needed thing. I've never had an animal who communicated with me like she does.

And it's all about me, she just lives to protect and care for me. I'm her assignment.

She loves the rest of the family but I really believe she thinks she is my care taker.

She is very emotional. And attached, I mean 'inseperable'.She's the shepherd and I'm her flock...lol

 

 

[Jimi-L]

On 5/3/2023 at 2:21 AM, carlos said:

My dogs have some degree of attachment to each other and they are happy to see each other if they are separated for some time. Yet if one of them is sick or suffering, the others won't move a finger to help. And I have never seen a dog sharing its food with someone else! In fact, as friends as they are, they have seriously injured one another when one tried to eat from the other's plate. You can't really say they love their fellow pack members.

 

Dogs also perceive injustice, but only when they are are the losing party. If you give a treat to one and not the other, that one will complain. But if you give one two treats and the other none, the one who received two will never give up one to the other.

 

They may reflect to some degree some of Jehovah's qualities, because they are creations by Him, but certainly they were not created in God's image.

 

On the other hand, it's wonderful to see that some pets can live in harmony together. Some even seem to defend each other, if it comes to that, though not always.

[Gimestr]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:03 AM, coolbrz731 said:

I heard a story about one of those gorillas that was really good with sign language.  One day, the father and the daughter got into an argument.  The daughter basically upheld the father's curfew despite her needing to get something for him before a store closed.  She did this out of spite because she was angry at him.  While they were arguing, the gorilla kept signing to the father that he is a bad man.  When the father finally told the gorilla to explain why he was a bad man, the gorilla said that he was yelling at his daughter even though she obeyed him.  She was the good girl.  The father tried to explain the situation to the gorilla, but all it could understand was that she obeyed, even though it caused hardship.  It couldn't understand right and wrong.  Only obedience and disobedience.  After several minutes, the gorilla finally had a temper tantrum because it couldn't understand.  This is one of the many differences between us and animals when it comes to emotions and understanding concepts behind the emotions.

They better stop monkeying around and settle their argument, or the gorilla will go ape on both of them

[Gimestr]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:24 AM, Kitty said:

We have had lots of really nice dogs over the years and then my son got a pure bred  German Shepherd. I've never experienced such love, attention and caring before. She comforts me when I cry, she stands beside me and helps me stand up after I do my sit ups, she's always smiling and happy but she groans when I'm upset and does all she can to make me feel better. 

She 'talks' to me endlessly, I know exactly when she wants out to potty or needs food or water,  she nudges me with her nose to the needed thing. I've never had an animal who communicated with me like she does.

And it's all about me, she just lives to protect and care for me. I'm her assignment.

She loves the rest of the family but I really believe she thinks she is my care taker.

She is very emotional. And attached, I mean 'inseperable'.She's the shepherd and I'm her flock...lol

 

 

German Shepards are some of the most intelligent dogs.  

[tekmantwo]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:21 PM, carlos said:

Yet if one of them is sick or suffering, the others won't move a finger to help

I have had Australian Shepherds in the past and, for me, they are the smartest dogs ever bred...

 

My oldest dog, Shasta, had pups, we kept an all black one(pretty rare)and named her Misty.

 

Probably the smartest dog I have ever known although she did have mental quirks..kinda like an idiot/savant.

 

Shasta had another litter and we kept one of those, I don't recall his name.

 

I had a pretty tall 4x4 truck and we went wheelin one day with the dogs.

 

I drive pretty slow when in rough country and the dogs will run underneath the truck,just doin dog stuff...

 

Well, I ran over the young male.

 

He wasn't hurt too badly but he was definitely not having a good day.

 

We had 3 small tents set up, parents, kids and my brother Don.

 

After I got the pup back to camp we put him in our tent and kept water by him and just waited to see what would happen..

 

The whole time he was in that tent Misty posted herself in the doorway and would not leave him alone, even when the rest of us took off to play, she stayed by his side, for most of 2 days..

 

I have never seen anything like that before, nor heard anything like that...

 

Lost Misty in 1995, I am still not over her. 

She was an amazing friend...