Vegan and vegetarian brothers and sisters

[jayrtom]

1 minute ago, ZDR said:

You just said the Bible doesn't provide the answers to the questions I raised. That's why we're discussing it here. No one is defying the FDS. We understand the official position and go with it. But even the FDS doesn't know every detail.

I was referring to this questions:

If ALL moving things were given ONLY green vegetation to eat, then what would happen to dead animals? ALL moving things would include insects and bacteria. They too ONLY ate vegetation? What about maggots? I understand that animals might not eat each other while alive, but doesn't it make sense that SOMETHING would have to eat up animals that died in order to keep the earth clean?

 

the question about animals being created carnivorous or not is answered on the bible

 

1 minute ago, ZDR said:

To answer your previous question about my statement about the mongoose, I ask you to revisit that video on JWB. The last sentence of the presentation about the mongoose says, "the mongoose was endowed with defenses and abilities that allow it to fearlessly fight and defeat this snake." Endowed by whom? Doesn't that indicate that Jehovah GAVE these creatures these abilities? Isn't that WHY we watched this video, to show how Jehovah gave animals the abilities to be courageous? Weren't we encouraged to acquire faith by seeing how Jehovah provided them and can also provide us with courage? Watch that entire video again and ask, why did Jehovah give animals these abilities if they were not ever going to use them?

 

I'd appretiate a link for the video as I don't remember it

If it says that explicitly it is a different information than what was previously posted

 

[McKay]

3 minutes ago, jayrtom said:

 

I'd appretiate a link for the video as I don't remember it

If it says that explicitly it is a different information than what was previously posted

 

https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODBibleCreation/pub-jwbcov_201805_19_VIDEO

 

The quote about the mongoose is at 5:35. But the entire video makes it clear that Jehovah is the one who gave these animals the abilities that make them courageous. That's why we watched the video and why it was made in the first place.

[jayrtom]

10 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

What makes you think that?

The bible made me reach that conclusion

Have you tried to search our publications ? I try to search first and then comment next

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/22167

During Noah’s lifetime, God gave guidance that led to preservation. After the Flood, Jehovah issued a specific prohibition about blood. Why the need for that?

There were new circumstances. Jehovah was going to permit animal flesh to be a source of food for humans. Hence, new guidelines were required:

 

3 minutes ago, ZDR said:

That's a fact according to the health wisdom of this world.

That has nothing to do with the mentioned fact. See my answer abbove

 

3 minutes ago, ZDR said:

@jayrtomBut here's another (scriptural) fact: Jesus ate meat. Why would he do that if his body wasn't designed to eat meat?

 

He was a regular human. The question is why would he do anything different from the others. Besides he was a jew, he was required to eat meat. Being vegetarian was not an option, otherwise he woudn't be able to say that he followed the law perfectly

 

3 minutes ago, ZDR said:

Nutritional advice CAN be influenced by social and political elements of this world. We need to be careful not to conflate what man "knows" with our knowledge of Jehovah.

I don't understand the point of saying this...

 

 

3 minutes ago, ZDR said:

But why us it so hard to imagine that Jehovah can still allow animals to eat dead flesh without compromising his promises? Can't both things be possible?

If you check what is written in our publications you'll find it hard to

[Thesauron]

That's a fact according to the health wisdom of this world.
 
[mention=3233]jayrtom[/mention]But here's another (scriptural) fact: Jesus ate meat. Why would he do that if his body wasn't designed to eat meat? Nutritional advice CAN be influenced by social and political elements of this world. We need to be careful not to conflate what man "knows" with our knowledge of Jehovah. Yes, we were given vegetation to eat. Yes, we will likely return to that. Yes, it's even possible that many of the predator/prey relationships may be undone. But why us it so hard to imagine that Jehovah can still allow animals to eat dead flesh without compromising his promises? Can't both things be possible?

Would Jehovah let us do it if it was detrimental to our bodies? After all, he does have all sorts of principles about all sorts of things that are bad for us? But not meat. Except this one: If you are a drunkard or a glutton, you cannot be a part of the Christian congregation.

Clearly, he made us to be able to consume some alcohol as well as some meat. That said, I can understand if some wish to refrain from things they feel are bad for them personally, or because of what modern meat production looks like.

[McKay]

13 minutes ago, jayrtom said:

The bible made me reach that conclusion

Have you tried to search our publications ? I try to search first and then comment next

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/22167

 

All well and good. Now tell me what you thought about the video I referenced. Clearly, there's room for both circumstances to be true.

[jayrtom]

28 minutes ago, ZDR said:

https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODBibleCreation/pub-jwbcov_201805_19_VIDEO

 

The quote about the mongoose is at 5:35. But the entire video makes it clear that Jehovah is the one who gave these animals the abilities that make them courageous. That's why we watched the video and why it was made in the first place.

Thanks

I saw it and indeed I understand that you may take those conclusions. I have to study a bit more to answer this but it wasn't said that the mongoose carachteristics were designed for that purpose. Rather the fact that he has those carachteristics allows him to defeat the cobra, which is different

The video is about courage and the lesson is taken by situations of today for a need of today. I don't think we needed courage like these animals show today when we were created. I think this doesn't contradicts what was said previously but I have to think more on this to be able to explain it better

[Meditate!]

59 minutes ago, ZDR said:

That's a fact according to the health wisdom of this world.

Bro Zac.. This world's wisdom is indeed nothing to go by. Often reactionary. Adam didn't eat meat. I'm not really sure why Jehovah sanctioned it to Noah.

 

My opinion regarding whether it was  a statement from Jehovah saying it is good thing or not is irrelevant. I don't know. The body functioned with it and I'd agree that jehovah would not sanction poison for Noah having just saved him and his family from extermination

 

Quote

 

But here's another (scriptural) fact: Jesus ate meat. Why would he do that if his body wasn't designed to eat meat? Nutritional advice CAN be influenced by social and political elements of this world. We need to be careful not to conflate what man "knows" with our knowledge of Jehovah. Yes, we were given vegetation to eat. Yes, we will likely return to that. Yes, it's even possible that many of the predator/prey relationships may be undone. But why us it so hard to imagine that Jehovah can still allow animals to eat dead flesh without compromising his promises? Can't both things be possible?

Zac.  No one is saying animals can't use their abilities in other areas..  Cain killed Abel violently but Jehovah's design of arm muscles was not the issue or blame there.

 

Animals did change their action by Jehovah's hand  possibly for their self protection. However that doesn't cover everything in creation.. I have said it before.. why does a spider create a web... to catch dead flies? I don't think so and I don't hear anyone say anything about the predatory nature of that.. it is perhaps because, THAT, designed function is insignificant to us (except the fly)

 

I saw a program about the waste of dead animals including dead insects.. The system has been designed to clean itself by animals insects, sometimes lower in the food chain, dragging 'meat' below the surface of the ground and dealing with it out of sight. Amazing!

 

Again, I don't see any change in the scriptures saying that the bear and lamb lion etc living cooperatively. that will happen!...

Bro @jayrtom was right.. not every condition is specified in the scriptures .. like everything will eat green vegetation. It is much more complex that that but it sufficed at the time to say that.

 

I just don't know where the line is going to be drawn in the eco system... the Spider for example.  We have a lot to learn. It is not the most essential thing to understand right now.. getting there, is.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Alan

[Hope]

6 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Would Jehovah let us do it if it was detrimental to our bodies? After all, he does have all sorts of principles about all sorts of things that are bad for us? But not meat. Except this one: If you are a drunkard or a glutton, you cannot be a part of the Christian congregation.

Clearly, he made us to be able to consume some alcohol as well as some meat. That said, I can understand if some wish to refrain from things they feel are bad for them personally, or because of what modern meat production looks like.

If Jehovah *never* wanted us to eat meat, He could have EASILY fed Noah and family with something like manna 'til the crops came in, right?  That would've taken no time, in comparison, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  He fed millions for 40 years with it, no problem. And they *did* have livestock with them.

 

There are populations of people who barely eat anything *but* meat and they live very healthy, long lives.  It is not a fact that we were not designed to eat meat; otherwise, Jehovah would've had to re-design us to do so like what it seems He'll have to do for animals to live off of vegetation instead of prey in the future. We've been eating it for thousands of years and thriving. Humans are omnivores- we can eat anything. Not all animals are.

[Meditate!]

something just occurred to me...

 

Why Noah was given meat to eat.. This is just a personal thought.

 

Animal sacrifices were going to be offered (by the Law.. the tutor leading to the Christ) and the distinction (to Noah) between that and their previous food was that it was corporeal. It had a body AND blood. This would be fitting for the supply of the only means of salvation; a human body with the precious blood (of the Christ). The Israelites would have consumed the Passover meal also respecting the blood but also its saving power (blood spattered on the lintels as a sign the the death angle passing over.

 

They would have been led to the conclusion that this type of offering (body and blood) was something special to Jehovah. Vegetation would not have conveyed that in the same manner.. the blood part especially.

 

It's just a thought.

 

Doesn't help with the topic of eating meat after the NS starts.. ramble ramble.

[Naturale]

15 hours ago, ZDR said:

 

@jayrtomBut here's another (scriptural) fact: Jesus ate meat. Why would he do that if his body wasn't designed to eat meat? Nutritional advice CAN be influenced by social and political elements of this world. We need to be careful not to conflate what man "knows" with our knowledge of Jehovah. Yes, we were given vegetation to eat. Yes, we will likely return to that. Yes, it's even possible that many of the predator/prey relationships may be undone. But why us it so hard to imagine that Jehovah can still allow animals to eat dead flesh without compromising his promises? Can't both things be possible?

...  after man’s rebellion, earthly creation became chaotic. Man lost his loving dominion over the animals. As a concession for his survival, man was authorized to eat animal flesh as food after the Flood. (Gen. 9:2-4) The animals, too, coming into chaos, began to live off one another. And since God had created a vast variety of features to make animal life interesting, many animals would be able to adapt to their new situation by using certain features to assist in their survival ...

g81 10/8 pp. 25-27

[Thesauron]

That's a fact according to the health wisdom of this world.
 
[mention=3233]jayrtom[/mention]But here's another (scriptural) fact: Jesus ate meat. Why would he do that if his body wasn't designed to eat meat? Nutritional advice CAN be influenced by social and political elements of this world. We need to be careful not to conflate what man "knows" with our knowledge of Jehovah. Yes, we were given vegetation to eat. Yes, we will likely return to that. Yes, it's even possible that many of the predator/prey relationships may be undone. But why us it so hard to imagine that Jehovah can still allow animals to eat dead flesh without compromising his promises? Can't both things be possible?

The wisdom of this world says: “meat is bad” just as “alcohol is bad”. Jehovah says: “Eat it in moderation”. Which one is correct?

[Naturale]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

The wisdom of this world says: “meat is bad” just as “alcohol is bad”. Jehovah says: “Eat it in moderation”. Which one is correct?

After the flood of Noah’s day God enlarged the diet of mankind.  Humans could now eat some meat if they chose to and within Jehovah's strict guide lines.

 

Whether a person chooses to eat some meat or not is a personal choice.  No-one  should criticise someone for eating meat or choosing to be vegetarian.  

 

What is of vital  importance is whether we are worshiping Jehovah with spirit and truth.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Naturale

[Thesauron]

After the flood of Noah’s day God enlarged the diet of mankind.  Humans could now eat some meat if they chose to and within Jehovah's strict guide lines.
 
Whether a person chooses to eat some meat or not is a personal choice.  No-one  should criticise someone for eating meat or choosing to be vegetarian.  
 
What is of vital  importance is whether we are worshiping Jehovah with spirit and truth.

Yes. What we cannot do is say mankind wasn’t created for a meat diet, or that this or that diet is better. Jehovah knows best, and he gave meat as food for mankind. You don’t want it? It’s your choice.

[Naturale]

24 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

Yes. What we cannot do is say mankind wasn’t created for a meat diet, or that this or that diet is better. Jehovah knows best, and he gave meat as food for mankind. You don’t want it? It’s your choice.

Not Designed That Way

Did the human and animal creations always behave the way they do now? Have they always hurt and maimed and killed? Were they designed to do that?

The answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!

Indeed, is God even the ruler of this present system of things? Is he guiding the nations in their dealings with one another? Again, the answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!

Well, then, just how was it long ago? Why are things the way they are now? Who, indeed, does rule this world? And just how will God bring all nature into complete peace and harmony?

The Way It Was

When God created humans and animals to live on this earth, he did not purpose for them to be killers. They were created to have peaceful relations with one another. Thus conditions were altogether different from what they are today. The record tells us that “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.”—Genesis 1:31.

The human creation was to have in loving subjection “the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” (Ge 1 Verse 28) None of the animals in the garden of Eden were killers. They were not a threat to man, nor was man a threat to any animal.

God’s Word clearly says regarding the first humans: “I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food.” (Genesis 1:29) Hence, man did not use animals for food.

What was the food of the animals? The inspired record states: “To every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” Or, as Today’s English Version of the Bible puts it: “For all the wild animals and for all the birds I have provided grass and leafy plants for food.”—Genesis 1:30.

So when God designed humans, he put them in a peaceful paradise called Eden. He made them to be at peace with the animals, with no violence or killing for food among animals or man. And humans were to keep it that way by caring for themselves, the animals and the garden paradise that they and their offspring would spread to encompass eventually the entire earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28.

• g82 10/8 pp. 9-13

[Thesauron]

11 minutes ago, Naturale said:

Not Designed That Way

Did the human and animal creations always behave the way they do now? Have they always hurt and maimed and killed? Were they designed to do that?

The answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!

Indeed, is God even the ruler of this present system of things? Is he guiding the nations in their dealings with one another? Again, the answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!

Well, then, just how was it long ago? Why are things the way they are now? Who, indeed, does rule this world? And just how will God bring all nature into complete peace and harmony?

The Way It Was

When God created humans and animals to live on this earth, he did not purpose for them to be killers. They were created to have peaceful relations with one another. Thus conditions were altogether different from what they are today. The record tells us that “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.”—Genesis 1:31.

The human creation was to have in loving subjection “the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” (Ge 1 Verse 28) None of the animals in the garden of Eden were killers. They were not a threat to man, nor was man a threat to any animal.

God’s Word clearly says regarding the first humans: “I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food.” (Genesis 1:29) Hence, man did not use animals for food.

What was the food of the animals? The inspired record states: “To every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” Or, as Today’s English Version of the Bible puts it: “For all the wild animals and for all the birds I have provided grass and leafy plants for food.”—Genesis 1:30.

So when God designed humans, he put them in a peaceful paradise called Eden. He made them to be at peace with the animals, with no violence or killing for food among animals or man. And humans were to keep it that way by caring for themselves, the animals and the garden paradise that they and their offspring would spread to encompass eventually the entire earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28.

• g82 10/8 pp. 9-13

The brothers used to believe that very strictly back in 1982. Not so much these days. Killing animals wasn’t strange to Abel. And Noah didn’t beg to get to eat meat. Did all animals eat just green vegetation? Probably not. Some ate fruit and nuts. So the verse is probably not to be understood that way.

[Naturale]

17 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

The brothers used to believe that very strictly back in 1982. Not so much these days. Killing animals wasn’t strange to Abel. And Noah didn’t beg to get to eat meat. Did all animals eat just green vegetation? Probably not. Some ate fruit and nuts. So the verse is probably not to be understood that way.

 

Nothing has changed regarding how life originally was in Eden. We know what happened after man sinned and why sacrifices were offered.  We know what the restoration prophecies say for the future.    As for eating fruit and nuts well yes we know that was the case  29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.+

Edited July 28, 2019 by Naturale

[McKay]

2 minutes ago, Naturale said:

 

Nothing has changed regarding how life originally was in Eden and we know the changes after man sinned. We know what the restoration prophecies say for the future.    As for eating fruit and nuts well yes we know that  29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.+

Yes, but a lot of the points in these articles from 1981 and 1982 that you keep quoting from make a lot of speculative "could have" or "probably" type statements. But the videos on creation produced in recent years seem to contradict some of those ideas. Last year's videos about learning courage from creation indicate that these features were given to animals precisely for the reasons they use them today, not as something learned AFTER the Flood.

[Thesauron]

 
Nothing has changed regarding how life originally was in Eden and we know what happened after man sinned. We know what the restoration prophecies say for the future.    As for eating fruit and nuts well yes we know that was the case  29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.+

So you think that no animal ate fruit? Did they start eating fruit after mankind’s fall?

[Naturale]

9 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

So you think that no animal ate fruit? Did they start eating fruit after mankind’s fall?

29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.+ 

 

It is pretty obvious that this verse is talking about Jehovah's creation in Eden and what he provided for food originally.  The plants and trees grew fruit and nuts etc.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Naturale

[Thesauron]

29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.+ 

 

It is pretty obvious that this verse is talking about Jehovah's creation in Eden and what he provided for food originally.  The plants and trees grew fruit and nuts etc.

He provided food, yes. But we do not understand the expression to mean ‘only green vegetation” for animals and ‘only seed bearing plants and fruits’ for man, right? See, according to literal understanding of this verse, animals could not eat the seed-bearing fruits, only green vegetation. And no mushrooms for anyone. And, yet, we understand that this probably wasn’t the case.

[BenJepthah]

Humans have a gene deletion which causes us to not produce a particular protein compound . That very compound helps to signal to White Blood Cells to remove plaques from our arteries among other things. That gene deletion results in heart disease. Earlier it was noted that the great apes are able to get enough protein from a strictly vegan diet : BUT , they do not have the gene deletion which humans have. They do not need to supplement their bodies with a protein found in meat that actually has a role in preventing heart disease and also paradoxically May contribute too heart disease in some people.      Why do we eat meat : we need that protein that we ourselves cannot make. 

[McKay]

44 minutes ago, BenJepthah said:

Humans have a gene deletion which causes us to not produce a particular protein compound . That very compound helps to signal to White Blood Cells to remove plaques from our arteries among other things. That gene deletion results in heart disease. Earlier it was noted that the great apes are able to get enough protein from a strictly vegan diet : BUT , they do not have the gene deletion which humans have. They do not need to supplement their bodies with a protein found in meat that actually has a role in preventing heart disease and also paradoxically May contribute too heart disease in some people.      Why do we eat meat : we need that protein that we ourselves cannot make. 

And this gene deletion might be the result of imperfection, increased exposure from solar radiation after the Flood, or inherited damage from environmental factors. In any case, I think it's clear that's why Jehovah gave permission to eat meat: he knew we'd need it for optimal health. Much of the current health advice challenges this, claiming that eating meat is bad for the environment. Does that mean Jehovah was wrong? Or are the people blaming meat instead of carbon polluters trying to advance another agenda for political reasons?

 

I'll stick to what Jehovah. If he gives me permission to eat it, there must be a good reason.

[jayrtom]

15 hours ago, Hope said:

If Jehovah *never* wanted us to eat meat,...

 

4 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Yes. What we cannot do is say mankind wasn’t created for a meat diet

You may say 1982 is to old (which I don't belive because there are lots of quotes of the 80's on recent publications .... But that's another story)

But what about 2016...

 

From this paragraph, how do you understand the question of weather men was created to eat meat or not? I'm not talking about if men can eat meat which he obviosly can. But we were not designed to that, otherwise even the blood law should have been postuladed from the beginning

The fact that men wasn't created to eat meat doesn't mean he can't eat it. it simple adapted to a new diet

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402016206#h=12

4 During Noah’s lifetime, God gave guidance that led to preservation. After the Flood, Jehovah issued a specific prohibition about blood. Why the need for that? There were new circumstances. Jehovah was going to permit animal flesh to be a source of food for humans. Hence, new guidelines were required: “Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat.” (Gen. 9:1-4)

4 hours ago, Thesauron said:

 

, or that this or that diet is better. Jehovah knows best, and he gave meat as food for mankind. You don’t want it? It’s your choice.

Today, you're right, we shouldn't say any specific diet is better or not

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101997568

The Bible’s Viewpoint

Is It Wrong to Eat Meat?

[Naturale]

3 hours ago, Thesauron said:

He provided food, yes. But we do not understand the expression to mean ‘only green vegetation” for animals and ‘only seed bearing plants and fruits’ for man, right? See, according to literal understanding of this verse, animals could not eat the seed-bearing fruits, only green vegetation. And no mushrooms for anyone. And, yet, we understand that this probably wasn’t the case.

It is simply clear to us there that God specifically assigned vegetation as the diet for both animals and humans.  This was the case before the flood.  That did not change until after the Flood, as Genesis 9:2-5 indicates.

 

As far as I understand it by Hebrew tradition there is the inclusion of fungi in the plant kingdom based on their mode of reproduction etc.   The Hebrew word for seed is Zerah which is an all encompassing word and mushrooms do have Zerah in the form of spores which is included in Zerah.

 

It really doesn't matter though whether they ate mushrooms or not 

 

 

 

[Thesauron]

It is simply clear to us there that God specifically assigned vegetation as the diet for both animals and humans.  This was the case before the flood.  That did not change until after the Flood, as Genesis 9:2-5 indicates.

 

As far as I understand it by Hebrew tradition there is the inclusion of fungi in the plant kingdom based on their mode of reproduction etc.   The Hebrew word for seed is Zerah which is an all encompassing word and mushrooms do have Zerah in the form of spores which is included in Zerah.

 

It really doesn't matter though whether they ate mushrooms or not 

 

 

 

I know that the Jews today feel that they can eat mushrooms even though they might be vegetarians for religious reasons.

 

What matters is if we were created to eat meat or not. And we obviously were created to handle it just fine. Whether or not Adam had it in his diet is not important, in a way. There were probably many things he didn’t have in his diet.

 

It’s unlikely that we will return to his diet, anyway. That idea comes from the old notion that Isa 65:10 were to have a predominantly literal fulfilment. These days we understand that the fulfilment is predominantly spiritual, and that it doesn’t say much about the circle of life in paradise, other than that some of the fear and terror shown by many animals in front of humans might be calmed down. The cross reference to the expression “They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain” leads us to Isa 2:3, 4, which talks about people who willingly adjust their lives to God’s standards.