Has Sweden Found the Right Solution to the Coronavirus?

[hatcheckgirl]

On 5/25/2020 at 5:33 AM, Thesauron said:

It is about the law, the constitution in fact, and ancient tradition. It guarantees the freedom of movement for Swedish citizens

How are our brothers handling following the Swedish government's more relaxed directions (compared to other governments around the world)? In view of following Rom 13, it seems to conflict on how the FDS are dealing with this, putting all Bethels in lockdown for their protection.

 

Also interesting is the point in the latest video on Do not Lie at 4:30 talking about not believing the conflicting views of fake news sites that encourage us to mistrust the government's directions at this time of the Pandemic, because lies destroy trust (in authority). 

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=share&prefer=content&applanguage=E&locale=en&item=pub-jwb_202007_10_VIDEO&docid=1011214

 

How is this being addressed and handled by our brothers in Sweden?

[M.J.]

3 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

How are our brothers handling following the Swedish government's more relaxed directions (compared to other governments around the world)? In view of following Rom 13, it seems to conflict on how the FDS are dealing with this, putting all Bethels in lockdown for their protection.

I don't see what the conflict is. Bethel is not breaking any laws.

[hatcheckgirl]

 

4 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

it seems to conflict

Sorry sis, you misunderstand me. "It" refers to the Swedish government's way of handling this pandemic.

 

 I was asking how @Thesauron and others in Sweden are handling their government's more lax approach to the pandemic - ie no strict lockdown, just "common sense" strategy.  Sweden is in  contrast to most other governments in how they are handling the pandemic.  We are supposed to follow the government's health directives, and of course take into account the Bible principles that the FDS are following and recommending.  Just wondering how it is affecting our brothers there.

[LindaViktoria]

Well,

we follow the guidelines from the brothers and have meetings over zoom. In service we can call people over the phone or send letters to them. 
We have a very good system in Sweden with websites that provides names on people who live on each adress. If the phonenumber is shown, we can call them. Otherwise we send a letter. 
Some people have been ordered to strictly work from home. Others work partly from home. 
Where I work, we were divided in two groups and one group worked from home when the other was at the office and vice versa. 
We will keep working like this until the end of august so far. It might be extended depending on what the government says. 
The schools and kindergartens are open as usual. 
The school for 17-19 year olds (gymnasium) was closed during spring but will open up in August. My daughter who went her first year in the gymnasium thought it was very hard even though she is good in school. She felt isolated and had problems understanding the assignments from the teachers. And they could not help the students in the same way as in the classroom. 
A friend of mine had a son with some difficulties and he couldnt finish school because of not being able to do the assignments from home. So he will spend the fall studying extra on a school for adults. 
This spring there were no parties for those who took their degree, no parties for weddings or other things. 
The celebration om easter and midsomer was cancelled in the whole country. 
If someone died, you could not have a reception. 
I heard that a former schoolmate of mine whose father died couldnt go to the funeral since only to people were able to attend, so her two brothers went when they put the father in the ground. 
 

Two families in our congregation had relatives who died ( one of Corona and one of other problems) and they couldnt have a reception afterwards.
The talk was given through zoom. 

 

We also had a zoom-wedding where a brother from our congregation got married. 
 

A young  brother got baptised in a bubble pool ( the bubbles were turned off) in the circuit assembly. 
 

When you go to the stores they call out every five minutes to please keep the distance, coffeshops and restaurants have rules as well on how to sit or stand in line. 
The cinemas and amusement parks have been closed. But the cinemas will start opening up slowly in a week. 
 

Many stores are filing for bankruptcy. 
My husband has a bakery and is struggling because many of the companies who used to order cakes,salads, sandwiches and so on for their meetings or when they wanted to celebrate something are now working from home. 

A friend of mine is struggling since her husband is a cab driver and owns two cars and has to pay the fees to the cab-company, but hardly gets any customers and all of the cab-companys have put in a rule that the drivers are not allowed to sell their cars until january ( they dont want to go bankrupt themselves) so they are forced to keep paying the fees without having an income. And If they sell the cars they get sued.
 

Some people are losing their jobs and getting more and more depressed. The calls to helplines for abused women and children has increased since more people are working from home and bad things are happening in the homes. 
A lot of young people feel insecure and afraid over the future and anxiety is increasing among them. 
My sister talked to a man on the phone in service, and he said: I cant talk right now, I havent seen my kids or grandchildren for several months. Its just me and my wife and Im so depressed.

 

We have all limited our association, we see only our closest family. 
And me and my family do things in the nature, like going to walk in the forest, swim in lakes or the sea. 
Go out to parks where the kids can play. 
So even If we are not in lockdown, life has changed.

 

 

[LindaViktoria]

I can add that in our congregation the meetings are well attended. We even have a disfellowshipped with us. 
About half of us have the video showing. Some have kids and have to turn the video off from time to time because of a little chaos going on(including myself)

The parents with small children are doing a great job. 

We talk in breakout rooms afterwards and call and text eachother from time to time. 
I have some friends on instagram so we write things to eachother there.

 

There was an article in a newspaper a couple of days ago about how the letter writing has increased during the pandemic ( My mom and sister was joking: wonder who are writing all these letters?)😄

[EccentricM]

On 4/8/2020 at 12:04 AM, Bob said:

I think the "herd immunity" approach does have some serious moral questions. Because you're basically allowing people to get infected, hoping most of them don't die.

 

Yet that depends on the make up of the people. Like Italy has an older population (I believe the second oldest on the planet by average age) and they have a societal norm of smoking at very young ages, which a recipe for preexisting, serious, conditions. 

 

So that may not be ideal there. 

 

On 4/7/2020 at 11:34 PM, carlos said:

I think it's undeniable that lockdown decreases the number of infections. If you stay home and don't get in touch with anyone there is no way you can be infected.

 

Also, achieving herd immunity by isolating those with higher risk of dying and letting the rest get infected is only doable if you have a very strong healthcare system that will be able to take care of many hundreds of people at once at hospital ERs. The US doesn't have that, and neither does Spain, but probably Sweden can afford that.

 

Now the effects on the economy and which of the two evils is preferable, that's a different discussion.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 1:14 PM, Shawnster said:

I dunno.  There does seem some merit in the herd immunity approach.  Isolate the ones that are most at risk.  

 

Kinda like people in the states having "chicken pox" parties.  While these have been discredited in recent years, many people did this throughout history.  Expose the children to chicken pox, let them get sick and get over it, then move on with life.

 

I think the thing is in the case of Covid-19 is that it's typically not that deadly to young healthy people.  

There is another issue people are not considering. Herd immunity requries a person to be.. "immune". This works because when a person catches something they then become immune. Eventually you'd want a "majority" who are immune so that the virus is denied of hosts before it can reach people who are not immune.

 

However... this only works with conditions where getting the infection and living results in immunity. So far it's been reported you can get the virus more than once,which means that herd immunity via just going back to normal won't work, because people are not becoming immune. The only real hope I'd say is to either:

 

1. Lockdown 100% to deny the virus of hosts so it goes extinct (fat chance of that)

2. Get a vaccine, and most people would recieve it, resulting in herd immunity for those that don't.

3. Paradise beats us to it.

 

It's actually not true that young people are not affected either, many have been, and some have been put in comas or have syndromes through it. The death rate is only kept under control because of lockdown measures, but it spreads faster than any other pandemic we've seen since 2000. Death rates are below flu (which is vaccinated), but that's only in the short time the COVID19 has existed, of which continues to mutate, acts unpredictable, and if left unchecked it would quickly overtake.

 

There is a reason the GB has said to not be casual and stay in lockdown. And now it seems conventions have been cancelled as far as 2021. Not something to shake a stick at.

Edited July 11, 2020 by EccentricM

[EccentricM]

@Lee49 I really wish you didn't post that video with that thumbnail preview, I nearly threw up.

Edited July 11, 2020 by EccentricM

[Thesauron]

How are our brothers handling following the Swedish government's more relaxed directions (compared to other governments around the world)? In view of following Rom 13, it seems to conflict on how the FDS are dealing with this, putting all Bethels in lockdown for their protection.
 
Also interesting is the point in the latest video on Do not Lie at 4:30 talking about not believing the conflicting views of fake news sites that encourage us to mistrust the government's directions at this time of the Pandemic, because lies destroy trust (in authority). 
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=share&prefer=content&applanguage=E&locale=en&item=pub-jwb_202007_10_VIDEO&docid=1011214
 
How is this being addressed and handled by our brothers in Sweden?

We keep following the guidelines from our local authorities while also implementing the stricter guidelines from the Governing Body. The primary objective is to show love and concern for our fellow humans, and our brothers in particular. The suggestion is to limit our contact especially with those in risk groups, but generally with people outside of our family units. Bethel and the RTO’s are under strict lockdown still, no matter what the local authorities say regarding relaxed rules. This means that the remote volunteers have to work mostly from home.

[carlos]

3 hours ago, EccentricM said:

However... this only works with conditions where getting the infection and living results in immunity. So far it's been reported you can get the virus more than once,which means that herd immunity via just going back to normal won't work, because people are not becoming immune. The only real hope I'd say is to either:

 

1. Lockdown 100% to deny the virus of hosts so it goes extinct (fat chance of that)

2. Get a vaccine, and most people would recieve it, resulting in herd immunity for those that don't.

3. Paradise beats us to it.

Immunity is immunity. It's the same if you get it by catching the virus (and surviving) or by a vaccine. The mechanism is exactly the same. Your body is infected and produces antibodies.

 

I am extremely skeptical about reports of people catching the virus more than once. That's simply not the way things work with viruses. IMO it's much more likely that those people had a different virus or weren't completely healed and it resurfaced. But if you really can catch the virus more than once, then a vaccine is useless too.

 

Of course a different thing is if the virus mutates so much that it becomes completely different, as it happens with flu often. Then your immunity against version 1 may not protect you from version 2. But then the vaccine would be useless as well.

 

Surely the paradise option is the safest.

[luisenriquereyes]

18 minutes ago, carlos said:

I am extremely skeptical about reports of people catching the virus more than once.

 

Of course a different thing is if the virus mutates so much that it becomes completely different, as it happens with flu often. Then your immunity against version 1 may not protect you from version 2. But then the vaccine would be useless as well.

 

It seems that the virus has mutated and people are getting the virus more than once.   This is an interesting video with an interview of a family where the mom / wife got it twice:
 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by luisenriquereyes

[ChocoBro]

On the slightly less fear-mongering side and on the more optimistic and fact-based side, Sweden's numbers are looking super good. 

Despite massively ramping up tests, daily new cases have dropped a sharp 60% in the past weeks and daily deaths are also successively decreasing to zero. 

 

On 7/11/2020 at 2:03 PM, luisenriquereyes said:

It seems that the virus has mutated and people are getting the virus more than once.   This is an interesting video with an interview of a family where the mom / wife got it twice:

 

Fact is that viruses, including Coronaviruses, have been mutating back and forth within our society for millenia. This is why you can catch a flu every year (it is also why the flu vaccine is utterly pointless). If you can catch the same virus twice within a short amount of time then there is something seriously wrong with your immune system, and in any case, a vaccine is utterly pointless if you can not become immune. 

[LindaViktoria]

I read in an article in a newspaper here in Sweden a couple of days ago that the government chose this path since they wanted a strategy that would be able to hold for a long time. 
They saw that it could go on for at least this whole year. 
They didnt think they would be able to keep a lockdown as long as that and they didn’t want to close down and then open again just to be forced to close down several times after that. 

[Bob]

6 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

On the slightly less fear-mongering side and on the more optimistic and fact-based side, Sweden's numbers are looking super good. 

Despite massively ramping up tests, daily new cases have dropped a sharp 60% in the past weeks and daily deaths are also successively decreasing to zero. 

 

Fact is that viruses, including Coronaviruses, have been mutating back and forth within our society for millenia. This is why you can catch a flu every year (it is also why the flu vaccine is utterly pointless). If you can catch the same virus twice within a short amount of time then there is something seriously wrong with your immune system, and in any case, a vaccine is utterly pointless if you can not become immune. 

Perhaps mitigation and not attempting to "crush" the curve via lockdowns was always the best strategy, especially in the US when community spread was known before the lockdowns. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Bob

[Mykyl]

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Perhaps mitigation and not attempting to "crush" the curve via lockdowns was always the best strategy, especially in the US when community spread was known before the lockdowns. 

Well at least your showing determination. 😉