Apologists on social media.

[Pionner_who]

In Brazil, a somewhat strange idea has been developing over the past few years. Brothers are creating pages on social media (YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok) to, according to them, defend the organization. This defense ranges from beliefs to responding to critics and apostates. When they are questioned, they say they are not doing anything wrong, because our publications explained that this is wrong (I think maybe they should study a little more 😅). Unfortunately, some who have gone down this path are no longer brothers, and others have turned their apologist channels into apostate ones. But here's the question: Is this something that only happens in Brazil, or does it also occur in the countries of other brothers?

[Brandon]

It has happened in every country with high internet penetration rates 

[Jwanon]

I do it too

[Dages]

That's quite dangerous, as you'll end up facing ex-JW and trolls.

 

[Sheep]

There used to be a couple of those "apologists" who even showed up on the forums here a few years ago. (I won't mention names.) But now, where are those particular brothers? They seem to have disappeared. Their websites are now non-existent, or just sitting there with no new content after several years. Maybe they've disappeared from their congregations too.

 

Although their arguments may seem to be solid, these apologists are not the Faithful and Discreet Slave. So we might ask ourselves, Who appointed them to defend the organization?

[Jwanon]

4 minutes ago, Sheep said:

There used to be a couple of those "apologists" who even showed up on the forums here a few years ago. (I won't mention names.) But now, where are those particular brothers? They seem to have disappeared. Their websites are now non-existent, or just sitting there with no new content after several years. Maybe they've disappeared from their congregations too.

 

Although their arguments may seem to be solid, these apologists are not the Faithful and Discreet Slave. So we might ask ourselves, Who appointed them to defend the organization?

 

The word 'apologist' comes from 1 Peter 3:15, "But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense (greek: apologian) before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have"

 

There is nothing wrong with defending our beliefs. They don't seek to take the place of the FDS

[carlos]

20 minutes ago, Jwanon said:

There is nothing wrong with defending our beliefs. They don't seek to take the place of the FDS

 

There is nothing wrong in defending our beliefs with those who are curious or have a wrong idea. The problem is when these apologists get in touch with apostates and opposers and other "contemptible" individuals whose intentions are not to learn the truth but to make them stumble.

 

Jesus said not to throw pearls to swine, and gave us an example by staying silent when the apostate high priest questioned him. Jehovah said by means of the apostle John that we should have absolutely no contact with those individuals, not even saying a greeting. Surely Jehovah and Jesus could present the best arguments ever yet they abstain from wasting any time with apostates.

 

In the best of cases, those brothers waste a lot of time and effort researching useless subjects which will not benefit anyone, since those people won't listen. In most cases, besides wasting time, their spirituality is seriously affected.

 

[Eejay]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

their spirituality is seriously affected.

 

This is probably the most serious aspect.

 

The scriptures are absolutely clear on the necessity for our stand against the activity of apostates and any kind of interaction with them. The danger of engaging is described at Proverbs 11:9: "By his mouth the apostate brings his neighbor to ruin," and at 2John v11: "For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

 

The well known danger of engaging with individuals on any form of social media is that there is no way of knowing who they are. Apostates are never shy of lying to achieve their evil ends, as Eve then Adam found out to our great cost. And  we also have to take on board the concept of "unintentional sin".

 

*** it-2 p. 967 Sin, I ***
The “error” (ʽa·wonʹ) may be intentional or unintentional, either a conscious deviation from what is right or an unknowing act, a “mistake” (shegha·ghahʹ), which, nevertheless, brings the person into error and guilt before God. (Le 4:13-35; 5:1-6, 14-19; Nu 15:22-29; Ps 19:12, 13) 

 

“‘If any person should sin by mistake, then he must present a female goat in its first year for a sin offering. And the priest will make atonement for the person who made a mistake by an unintentional sin before Jehovah, so as to make atonement for it, and it will be forgiven him. As for the native-born among the Israelites and the foreigner who is residing in their midst, there should be one law for you in the matter of doing something unintentionally".  Numbers 15: 27-29,

 

*** it-2 p. 526 Offerings ***
Sin offerings. These were all for unintentional sin, committed because of weakness of the imperfect flesh, not “with uplifted hand,” that is, not openly, proudly, purposely. (Nu 15:30, 31, ftn).

 

There is no shortage of counsel from the Governing Body on the dangers of indiscriminate internet engagement with strangers. That counsel is given in the spirit of Gal.6:1.

So, engaging with apostates, even unintentionally, is a sinful act. It also endangers anyone else following the conversation if it is in a public context. This action makes an individual  reprehensible before Jehovah, even if unintentional. I am sure any number of such apostates are well aware of this matter and seek to engage naive ones.

1Cor.10:12: "Let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall".
 

[Sheep]

3 hours ago, Jwanon said:

There is nothing wrong with defending our beliefs. They don't seek to take the place of the FDS.

Once again, I could ask, who appointed any one of us to defend the organization against apostates or people who wish to argue? That is not our commission. Our mandate is to preach the good news, hopefully to people who would respond favourably. Isn't that where we find the most joy? We preach the good news in our ministry, not by setting up websites or going on social media. As for people who argue, Jesus did not say we should defend ourselves at all cost. For those who do not listen, Jesus instructed us: "shake the dust off your feet" and leave. And may the peace that you wished the householder on arriving return to you.—Matthew 10:13

[Jwanon]

14 minutes ago, Sheep said:

I could ask, who appointed any one of us to defend the organization against apostates or people who wish to argue?

 

The point of apologetics is to refute false claims about our faith. Being a Witness of Jehovah means we expose lies against God and by extension his Son and his servants. It's not to argue with apostates or opposers, but to show these the falsehood of these claims so that others may see the truth.  

 

1 hour ago, Eejay said:

So, engaging with apostates, even unintentionally, is a sinful act

 

I agree, but apologetics is not limited to engaging with apostates. It seems you are speaking against a narrow definition of what apologetics is

[Jwanon]

3 hours ago, carlos said:

In the best of cases, those brothers waste a lot of time and effort researching useless subjects which will not benefit anyone, since those people won't listen. In most cases, besides wasting time, their spirituality is seriously affected.

 

I personally have been helped a lot by them, my spirituality has improved thanks to the comments of brothers defending the faith such as these

 

https://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/?m=0

 

https://dismythed.blogspot.com/?m=2

 

I am not advocating for spending time arguing with apostates or opposers, it is something else entirely

 

Edited August 25 by Jwanon

[Sheep]

1 minute ago, Jwanon said:

The point of apologetics is to refute false claims about our faith.

 

. . .

 

It seems you are speaking against a narrow definition of what apologetics is

 

I don't know too much about what "apologetics" is supposed to be, mostly because the Bible doesn't use that word anywhere, and our organization has barely mentioned it. Once again, it is not within our commission as Christians to refute false claims, but to share what we know to be true with others: the Good News of God's Kingdom.

[Jwanon]

6 minutes ago, Sheep said:

it is not within our commission as Christians to refute false claims

 

Do you consider this article to refute a false claim?

 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/is-purgatory-in-the-bible/

 

Or this one?

 

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-a-cult/

 

Edited August 25 by Jwanon

[Qapla]

We have been admonished time and again that we should point others to jw.org when online ... so, perhaps, the best thing we could offer would be to site (post the link) to an article on jw.org that deals with whatever the point is we are responding to online instead of debating with them trying to say what the FDS could say much better in print.

 

[Jwanon]

4 minutes ago, Qapla said:

We have been admonished time and again that we should point others to jw.org when online ... so, perhaps, the best thing we could offer would be to site (post the link) to an article on jw.org that deals with whatever the point is we are responding to online instead of debating with them trying to say what the FDS could say much better in print.

 

 

Right but if we have made the truth our own we are also capable of defending what we believe with our own words. I would first do this, and then if the person is interested to know more I would point to the website 

[Sheep]

31 minutes ago, Jwanon said:

Do you consider this article to refute a false claim?

 

Part of our commission is to answer questions of some individuals we may meet in the ministry. That may include negative comments they may have heard from elsewhere. And so the organization gives us some fine recommendations such as the ones you mention, all for the purpose of helping us to carry out our commission. But it doesn't tell us to share those points publicly on social media. The information is for sincere individuals, not for opposers who feel they have the job to discredit us.

 

Satan is intent on stopping us from sharing the good news with people. The ways he uses to accomplish that are very numerous, and I think "apologetics" is one thing we could uselessly get tied up in. That will only aid Satan's purpose; he will have obtained his objective. He also uses subjects like these to get us entangled in to distract us from our work. Personally I would much rather be out in the ministry searching for receptive individuals than debating with brothers and sisters in our spiritual paradise. I have more peaceful things to do.

Edited August 25 by Sheep

[Eejay]

53 minutes ago, Jwanon said:

apologetics is not limited to engaging with apostates

Of course not, but how do you know who is and who is not?

[Jwanon]

6 minutes ago, Eejay said:

Of course not, but how do you know who is and who is not?

 

Just like in the ministry, you can tell if someone is interested, mistaken or an opposer

 

7 minutes ago, Sheep said:

The information is for sincere individuals, not for opposers, who feel they have the job to discredit us.

 

Ok but put youself in people's shoes. They hear a claim about Jehovah's Witnesses, either from opposers, or from the media, or from someone who heard this claim and is repeating it. 

 

If there is nobody to refute these claims, all they will know is that particular claim without any way of knowing if it is true or not. They will never have the opportunity to hear our perspective if we never share our perspective.

 

They will remain ignorant of the truth if we don't proclaim the truth

 

There are sincere people out there who do not know right from wrong, our mission as Jehovah's Witnesses is to guide them to what is truthful and it begins with what we say to them

 

And again, I am not talking about arguing with apostates

Edited August 25 by Jwanon

[Jwanon]

Also, I am not saying that everyone should start doing apologetics online. I am not advocating for this at all, it would be a bad idea for the reasons that Carlos has mentionned

 

What I think is that if someone is comfortable with a form of ministry, it is their personal load to carry

Edited August 25 by Jwanon

[trottigy]

Obviously there is nothing wrong with defending our faith. Peter was inspired by God to tell us to do just that @ 1 Peter 3:15:

 

Quote

But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

 

BUT, this talks of those we are already talking to who "demand a reason for the hope." Seeking ones out by looking for them on Reddit and other locations is NOT what the slave has asked us to do. Can some have websites where they defend our faith? Sure, but note the slave's comment on even this:

 

Quote

Furthermore, posting our publications on websites that allow comments provides a place for apostates and other critics to sow distrust of Jehovah’s organization. Some brothers have been drawn into online debates and thus have brought added reproach on Jehovah’s name. An online forum is not an appropriate setting for “instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed.” (2 Tim. 2:23-25; 1 Tim. 6:3-5) It has also been observed that fraudulent social media accounts and websites have been created in the name of the organization, the Governing Body, and its individual members. However, no member of the Governing Body maintains a personal Web page or a presence on any social media site.

 

Directing people to jw.org helps to spread the “good news.” (Matt. 24:14) 

 

We can do that WITHOUT allowing for comments and arguments. And some have good sites that do just that. We occasionally have pointed ones to a few of these mentioned above, but the slave has certainly warned us NOT to communicate with apostates on-line OR in any other manner. Some have said - well, how do you know?

 

As soon as you know a person you are talking to is and apostate - that is the time to end the conversation! You'll know. You all know the topics they like to bring up - no need to list them here. If a person you are communicating with is sincere - then they will be moved by the Bible's words AND by the information we have from the Faithful Slave appointed by Jesus! If they wont listen to those things then again - you know God's is not drawing them at that time and there is no need to communicate further.

 

PLEASE AVOID APOSTATES at the locations they hang out.

 

 

[trottigy]

 

 

We appreciate everyone's enthusiasm, but it is important to remember that Jesus put the Faithful Slave in Charge and that includes being in charge of the preaching work.

 

It is the primary command they follow and we have to follow their lead. We can NOT run ahead of them and "show them the way". Instead, we MUST support them and assist in all they ask!.

 

Remember when the time of the end comes the method Jesus will use to judge is NOT how many lives we saved or even the method, but instead it is:

 

Quote

‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/40/25#study=discover

 

Don't run ahead or push. Instead do as they ask. Right now, they have asked us to avoid confronting apostates and talking with them. 

 

NOTE: I have not locked this topic, BUT I have set it for a moderator to read the posts BEFORE they gets shared. I know this is a touchy topic. Just a quick reminder on an item from the forum policy:

 

Quote

* Do not use topics, replies, or your status updates to sound off on what you think the organization should do differently. It is discouraging, and quite frankly not up to you anyhow.

https://jwtalk.net/news/info/membership-policy/

 

[Landon1285]

This happens everywhere. I would advise caution-we definitely want to defend the reasons for our beliefs to others who demand it-but at the same time we don't want the discussion to become a spectacle. That can easily happen online. 

 

If you type Jehovah's Witnesses on YouTube for instance you'll probably see some apostate material. How likely would they see the so called jw apologist response? In the event they do see it what about the next debatable point? And the next one? 

 

It can become a rabbit hole of debates where we are just defending our beliefs through the lens of those not believing.

 

How much better for a curious person to ask their JW workmate a question or for someone to approach those in public witnessing sincerely with their questions. 

 

One other thing to think about is some claims we can't defend properly because of a lack of information that can lead to another rabbit hole/gap of unverified resources. 

 

When the gap between those taking the lead making changes and the reason behind them is large or unclear it becomes very tempting to want to bridge that gap. Therefore any attempt to discover the reasoning behind the change including the gap itself can come across largely conspiritorial. You can start to gamble doctrinally with the downside being much worse than the upside. The upside if correct is mostly positive-it puts you ahead of others (which can be a bit lonely). If wrong this can lead one from initially feeling empowered to becoming cynical. This can cause division between close friends who may start to consider each other as enemies.

 

How good it is to heed the Bible's advice to be patient - James 5:8.

 

 

 

 

On 8/24/2024 at 6:09 PM, Nathansantos said:

In Brazil, a somewhat strange idea has been developing over the past few years. Brothers are creating pages on social media (YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok) to, according to them, defend the organization. This defense ranges from beliefs to responding to critics and apostates. When they are questioned, they say they are not doing anything wrong, because our publications explained that this is wrong (I think maybe they should study a little more 😅). Unfortunately, some who have gone down this path are no longer brothers, and others have turned their apologist channels into apostate ones. But here's the question: Is this something that only happens in Brazil, or does it also occur in the countries of other brothers?

 

[Qapla]

At times, we have to sit back and think ... we may have what seems like a good idea and wonder why such direction has not yet come from the Branch. We may even think it seems obvious and, after all, what would be wrong with it. 

 

Remember Uzzah?

 

I'm sure he thought that saving the ark from falling was a good idea .. and, in fact, it may have been. The problem was, he was not given the permission to do that particular task - and it cost him his life.

 

We had this admonition in the April 2018 Watchtower page 31 par. 2 in the Questions From Readers:

 

"Some brothers have been drawn into online debates and thus have brought added reproach on Jehovah’s name. An online forum is not an appropriate setting for “instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed.” (2 Tim. 2:23-25; 1 Tim. 6:3-5)"

While it may seem like a good idea to proclaim our message on social media and/or a missed opportunity if we don't ... maybe, unlike Uzzah, we should wait till we get clear direction from the FDS as to when and how to proceed with that type of ministry.

 

[hatcheckgirl]

Probably the best way to approach defending our faith in these “favourable times” would be by our conduct. If we are known as a JW at work, at school, in our every day life, and we stay friendly, then obviously that approach works better if people become curious. Because we are approachable, they can ask whatever questions they want, and they may even have a bit of trust in us already because we are different from the rest, we are genuine, and we have standards. “Won without a word” Is a tried and trusted method.

 

The current way of preaching as the LMD brochure outlines is good for us to follow and adapt. Follow the chariot, not our own understanding.

[Tortuga]

15 hours ago, Jwanon said:

I do it too

You have started a lot of topics and asked a lot of questions on this site. Are those questions coming from people on your social media sites? Are you using the information you are getting here to help you defend the truth? Are we unknowingly giving you information that may be shared with apostates? Have you shared confidential or 'members only' information?

Edited August 26 by Tortuga