Songbook: "Sing Out Joyfully" to Jehovah

[Brother_Bliss]

On 10/9/2016 at 7:54 AM, MizPeg said:

Gee whiz!  All of these posts, and nary a one of you were right there while the songs were being created,  recorded or placed .

Has humility, and gratitude flown out the window?

 

On 10/9/2016 at 8:46 AM, Thesauron said:

Huh?

 

 

I think she was just looking for a reason to use "nary" in a sentence

 

[jwhess]

4 hours ago, Hope said:

I don't like singing with the tablet - the screen is not big enough (8.4") and I really don't like needing to scroll in the middle of a song.  I use my paper songbook now, unless we're singing one of the new tunes.

 

I ordered two hard copies.

 

The new songbook has songs that occupy FOUR pages.  If not scrolling you will be flipping.

[Hope]

I'm good with turning pages.  Scrolling- especially a song that long- not so much.

[Life4u]

I've downloaded the new song book on my phone and PC, but they are zip files and I get the message that they cannot be opened or read or I need to download a app to read it. 

 

I have no idea what this is, any explanations are so much needed. Thanks in advance.

[mserskine]

2 hours ago, loving life said:

I've downloaded the new song book on my phone and PC, but they are zip files and I get the message that they cannot be opened or read or I need to download a app to read it. 

 

I have no idea what this is, any explanations are so much needed. Thanks in advance.

I have that trouble too. Instead of using the zip file, which is suppose to download them all at once, I just do it one at a time.

[Alexa]

I've downloaded the new song book on my phone and PC, but they are zip files and I get the message that they cannot be opened or read or I need to download a app to read it. 
 
I have no idea what this is, any explanations are so much needed. Thanks in advance.

Download a unzipping app in App Store, its complicated sis loving life but i agree to bro mserskine to download it one at a time which only takes seconds per download

[Thesauron]

From song 136 - “A Perfect Wage” From Jehovah


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[Thesauron]

Song 53 (145) has, as mentioned before, a modified orchestral arrangement. It is also in a higher key with new chords.
Song 54 (65) has not changed.
Song 55 (33) has not changed. The 'boasting threats' may still fly.
Song 56 (64) has not changed either.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[James the Less]

18 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

Song 55 (33) has not changed. The 'boasting threats' may still fly.

And our foes still flatter and smile "to mislead and to beguile" 

[Hope]

See -- that's the sort of poetic language that I love... that works in a song.  "Beguile"?  Such a word!    If people don't know what it means, they need to look it up.

 

Along with "shall"... 

[Hope]

Another comment...

 

I am vibing off of Tortuga's thread about needing an "attitude adjustment".

 

I haven't spent time poring over the lyrics like Brother Johan has... but I just had a peek at "Jehovah Is My Shepherd".  

 

WHYYYY?????  Is there a need to replace lyrics taken nearly verbatim from the Bible with more mundane, non-inspired words?  Forgive me, but the new lyrics make the song almost trite, missing the simple beauty of the actual psalm.  I felt/feel the same about "A Victory Song" -- in the brown book, it was also nearly verbatim from Exodus 15; it made you feel like you were singing right along with those Israelites.  Some of the power is removed, in my opinion.

 

I know.  I know.  This is merely a personal rant and I'll sing all the songs as written.  And I'll get over it.  Just that music and our songs in particular are intensely personal to me.  I'm all for correctness, ease of translation, etc.  But it just sorta bugs me on a few different levels to have scriptural verses replaced with human paraphrasing (for lack of a better term).

 

Does anybody know what I mean?  I'm a bit scared to check other lyrics...  

[Alexa]

Another comment...
 
I am vibing off of Tortuga's thread about needing an "attitude adjustment".
 
I haven't spent time poring over the lyrics like Brother Johan has... but I just had a peek at "Jehovah Is My Shepherd".  
 
WHYYYY?????  Is there a need to replace lyrics taken nearly verbatim from the Bible with more mundane, non-inspired words?  Forgive me, but the new lyrics make the song almost trite, missing the simple beauty of the actual psalm.  I felt/feel the same about "A Victory Song" -- in the brown book, it was also nearly verbatim from Exodus 15; it made you feel like you were singing right along with those Israelites.  Some of the power is removed, in my opinion.
 
I know.  I know.  This is merely a personal rant and I'll sing all the songs as written.  And I'll get over it.  Just that music and our songs in particular are intensely personal to me.  I'm all for correctness, ease of translation, etc.  But it just sorta bugs me on a few different levels to have scriptural verses replaced with human paraphrasing (for lack of a better term).
 
Does anybody know what I mean?  I'm a bit scared to check other lyrics...  

Yes i know what that is going sis hope... I have to understand that there are changes that our Organization have to make to keep up to chariot. Those changes may seem unnecessary for us but they might feel the need for the change because of factors they have experienced to consider sis hope

Sent from my WV8-L using Tapatalk

[Sepie93]

I think the problem the brothers see with making the songs are the translations in a lot of other languages.. If English was the only language lyrics needed to appear in, it was much easier. But there are so many other languages. If the brothers would use literal pieces from the Bible, it would challenge the translation teams too much to make something what only looks like that. (For example.. one verse in Proverbs in Dutch is 23 words, while the same verse in Arabic only have 8 words).

It's easier to translate the thought of "man-made" lyrics based on scripture, than whole excerpts from scriptures and translate this in a melodious way in another language..



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G903F met Tapatalk

[Shines]

On 10/3/2016 at 11:59 AM, MM9106 said:

It's gonna take a while to get used to the new numbering.

 

Hopefully they release the orchestral accompaniment with the new numbering soon. It'll still be the same renditions that we have now, just with different numbering and different titles.

The society has already done this. Look for "'Sing Out Joyfully' to Jehovah--Meetings." There it has all the orchestral tracks in the right order. You can find this too on Broadcast.

[Hope]

49 minutes ago, Sepie93 said:

I think the problem the brothers see with making the songs are the translations in a lot of other languages.. If English was the only language lyrics needed to appear in, it was much easier. But there are so many other languages. If the brothers would use literal pieces from the Bible, it would challenge the translation teams too much to make something what only looks like that. (For example.. one verse in Proverbs in Dutch is 23 words, while the same verse in Arabic only have 8 words).

It's easier to translate the thought of "man-made" lyrics based on scripture, than whole excerpts from scriptures and translate this in a melodious way in another language..



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G903F met Tapatalk
 

No -- I do understand that.  Perhaps I'm believing there was a way for each language to translate a song with Biblical lyrics in their own language without undoing the beauty of the scripture.  I'm not speaking of necessarily using word-for-word song verse = Bible verse or having EVERY language match what's said in English.  Just less stripping away of the actual singing of the Bible... especially Psalms -- that entire book is made of of songs!!!  

 

If not, well then... it's still a bit sad to me.   Our original lyrics helped me in memorizing scriptures.  The new "Jehovah is My Shepherd" is a bit too improvised for that, now.. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by Hope

[Thesauron]

No -- I do understand that.  Perhaps I'm believing there was a way for each language to translate a song with Biblical lyrics in their own language without undoing the beauty of the scripture.  I'm not speaking of necessarily using word-for-word song verse = Bible verse or having EVERY language match what's said in English.  Just less stripping away of the actual singing of the Bible... especially Psalms -- that entire book is made of of songs!!!  
 
If not, well then... it's still a bit sad to me.   Our original lyrics helped me in memorizing scriptures.  The new "Jehovah is My Shepherd" is a bit too improvised for that, now.. 

I think it has more to do with what you're used to. Every single change is discussed and considered at length. It has to do with had current need of the whole organisation at this time. The original lyrics to A Victory Song was much different. That is because it was used in the audio track of a drama. When released in the songbook it was shortened and made into verses. In time it was changed to suit the needs for the meetings where it was going to be used. Was there something wrong with the original drama lyrics? No! They were fine, and still are. But our needs for the meetings are different.

There's been plenty of songs written using Psalm 23 word for word. They are fine, they really are. But I believe the Governing Body has seen a different need these days, and perhaps putting the thoughts of that Psalm in a slightly different dress will address those needs. Also, in most languages this song never was a direct quote of the Psalm. It's not possible without adjusting the music for each translation. And believe me, no change at all is done without lengthy consideration under prayer. And we might long back to the more archaic language, but we really should be looking ahead to what these changes might mean for the future.

Do you remember how the composer of Forward, You Witnesses! reacted when he got hold of the first songbook with his song in it and he saw that his lyrics had been changed?


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[Thesauron]

Got to love autocorrect...


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[James the Less]

I appreciate what sister Uani is saying about the lyrics; it seems that in most cases, simplicity has won out over sentiment when it comes to the lyrics in our new songbook. I understand that simpler, more understandable lyrics will make this songbook easier to translate into other languages, and some of the lyrical changes made I am very grateful for; for example, I like how certain songs which contained direct admonition and Scriptural counsel have been reworded to be less direct. A beautiful example of this is "Worship Jehovah During Youth," which in our current songbook is a song worded to be sung as a song of admonition from parents and friends to youths. It has now been completely rephrased so that we can all sing this song as precious sons and daughters of God expressing our desire to serve Jehovah.

 

But I sympathize with those who appreciated the more poetic lyrics of some songs which have now been abandoned. Something that I just can't get used to is how the rhyming sequence in some songs has changed. As a matter of personal opinion and nothing more (I am not speaking against the organization nor am I showing a lack of appreciation), I really really don't like the new version of song 73 in our current songbook, "Love Intensely From the Heart." The lyrics in the current version rhyme well and the rhyming sequence (every second bar rhyming) fits in very nicely with the flow of the music. In the new songbook, you have to get to the end of the first PAGE to realise that anything in the song rhymes at all! The rhyming sequence simply doesn't fit with the flow of the music.

 

Ugh okay, rant over. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to refuse to sing the song just because I don't like it. It's just going to take A LOT of getting used to for me. And on the whole I absolutely LOVE the new songbook. Don't you agree that our newest songs, both music and lyrics, evoke more emotion, especially more joy, than any other songbook over the years? I also love the diversity of the musical styles in our new songbook—the African beat of "Preaching to All Sorts of People," the dramatic, almost cinematic, music of "Grant Us Boldness," "Light in a Darkened World" and "The Revealing of God's Sons," and the dancing beat of "How Does It Make You Feel?"

[Thesauron]

I appreciate what sister Uani is saying about the lyrics; it seems that in most cases, simplicity has won out over sentiment when it comes to the lyrics in our new songbook. I understand that simpler, more understandable lyrics will make this songbook easier to translate into other languages, and some of the lyrical changes made I am very grateful for; for example, I like how certain songs which contained direct admonition and Scriptural counsel have been reworded to be less direct. A beautiful example of this is "Worship Jehovah During Youth," which in our current songbook is a song worded to be sung as a song of admonition from parents and friends to youths. It has now been completely rephrased so that we can all sing this song as precious sons and daughters of God expressing our desire to serve Jehovah.
 
But I sympathize with those who appreciated the more poetic lyrics of some songs which have now been abandoned. Something that I just can't get used to is how the rhyming sequence in some songs has changed. As a matter of personal opinion and nothing more (I am not speaking against the organization nor am I showing a lack of appreciation), I really really don't like the new version of song 73 in our current songbook, "Love Intensely From the Heart." The lyrics in the current version rhyme well and the rhyming sequence (every second bar rhyming) fits in very nicely with the flow of the music. In the new songbook, you have to get to the end of the first PAGE to realise that anything in the song rhymes at all! The rhyming sequence simply doesn't fit with the flow of the music.
 
Ugh okay, rant over. 
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to refuse to sing the song just because I don't like it. It's just going to take A LOT of getting used to for me. And on the whole I absolutely LOVE the new songbook. Don't you agree that our newest songs, both music and lyrics, evoke more emotion, especially more joy, than any other songbook over the years? I also love the diversity of the musical styles in our new songbook—the African beat of "Preaching to All Sorts of People," the dramatic, almost cinematic, music of "Grant Us Boldness," "Light in a Darkened World" and "The Revealing of God's Sons," and the dancing beat of "How Does It Make You Feel?"

Taste might differ, to be sure. I know the translators are happy that they do not need to take so many rhymes into consideration. This way the sentence structure can be better and it's easier to select the proper words. Besides, you don't rhyme the same way in all languages and cultures. Now we can rollout more languages easier and faster.

My impression from working professionally is that you might not understand a piece of music until you've sang it for a while and you start to grasp how the lyrics and music together paint a picture. Then the words you at first found raw and unrefined tend to find their place and meaning. These days rhyming is quite rare unless you want to emphasise a thought or play with words a bit.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[James the Less]

I understand what you're saying. When it comes to translating song lyrics, though, translators have to carry the thought of the lyrics, not the exact lyrics themselves, over to the translated song. So the actual lyrics are going to differ quite considerably between every single language. If different languages rhyme differently, does it really have to affect the English rhyming technique? Can't the lyrics just be adjusted to fit the rhyming scheme used in another language? Perhaps I'm missing something.

 

I totally get what you're saying about it taking time to understand how the lyrics and music working together, though. And perhaps for me this particular song is just not gelling for me because simply because it's different to what I've been used to for quite some time. It could very well be that over time, I'll learn to love the lyrics (it's happened before)  

[Thesauron]

I understand what you're saying. When it comes to translating song lyrics, though, translators have to carry the thought of the lyrics, not the exact lyrics themselves, over to the translated song. So the actual lyrics are going to differ quite considerably between every single language. If different languages rhyme differently, does it really have to affect the English rhyming technique? Can't the lyrics just be adjusted to fit the rhyming scheme used in another language? Perhaps I'm missing something.
 
I totally get what you're saying about it taking time to understand how the lyrics and music working together, though. And perhaps for me this particular song is just not gelling for me because simply because it's different to what I've been used to for quite some time. It could very well be that over time, I'll learn to love the lyrics (it's happened before)  

In some languages you rhyme the first word, specific syllables, or sometimes even thoughts and ideas.

The translators have some leeway when they translate regular text. Idiomatic expressions, for example, would not make sense in other languages. So they are avoided as much as possible in the original text and when needed they are translated so that the same thoughts are conveyed. A sentence in English need to stir the same emotions in Arabic.

When it comes to songs, though, you have the added constraint of a melody, and the Governing Body want the translations to be able to be as equal as possible. They've made some changes to accommodate this - spacing is one. Sure, English singers will have to live with the pain of scrolling a little bit or flip a few more pages. But our Greenlandic friends can actually see their lyrics this way. Also, simplicity is needed. Many of our beloved family members are not as avid readers as us, but we still want them to be able to sing with us. They might not have the same education or access to books to look up words in their area, so simplicity is welcomed. Imagine that a song you sing at your Kingdom Hall needs to be able to be sung the same by our friends deep in the forest of Malawi using Chichewa or a local tongue and convey the same thoughts. Hard work for the translators? Yes! Impossible? Not necessarily given the right help.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[Thesauron]

Song 57 (142) has a slightly adjusted orchestral arrangement.
Song 58 (141) has not changed.
Song 59 (104) has slightly changed lyrics.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[jwhess]

I grew up reading, speaking and singing from the King James version.  Now 60 years later you can appreciate my long-past angst when we went "modern".  It was explained to me that it was easier for all to understand.  Shakespeare was OK for the theater but concise modern speech was best for telling the truth.  I adapted.  Now many who never read., spoke or sang from the King James have no idea of the difficulty endured at the time.  One song's chorus used to say "the sword of the Lord, and of Gideon" and it rolled of the tongue.  It was changed to match the NWT and so read, "the sword of Jehovah, and of Gideon".  which does not even have the same number of syllables.  Now that song is entirely eliminated.  

 

I have adapted (for the most part) and look forward to the day when I can actually 'sing' the songs correctly.  Perhaps then it will require a change to "Hebrew" phrasing and melody.  Until then I treasure the opportunity to join in while I can still speak.

Edited October 12, 2016 by jwhess

[Hope]

Again, to all -- I am well aware of the reasonings and technical details of translating songs, revised understandings, intense consideration by the GB and Writing Committee, etc.  And I don't think other languages need to match English... they can find their own way to express the scriptures.

 

My only "beef" ( if it's even that ) is the loss of actually singing the scriptures and less lyrical lyrics.  I don't hold song lyrics to the same "I MUST UNDERSTAND IT ON FIRST READING!!!" standard that I do for regular literature (art requires more insight and scrutiny and lyrics paint word pictures. They don't photograph them).  I shall soldier on unconquered, however.    Our songs are worship to Jehovah and that deserves my best.

[Thesauron]

Again, to all -- I am well aware of the reasonings and technical details of translating songs, revised understandings, intense consideration by the GB and Writing Committee, etc.  And I don't think other languages need to match English... they can find their own way to express the scriptures.
 
My only "beef" ( if it's even that ) is the loss of actually singing the scriptures and less lyrical lyrics.  I don't hold song lyrics to the same "I MUST UNDERSTAND IT ON FIRST READING!!!" standard that I do for regular literature (art requires more insight and scrutiny and lyrics paint word pictures. They don't photograph them).  I shall soldier on unconquered, however.    Our songs are worship to Jehovah and that deserves my best.

Do you know what language is the most common language in the world? (Hint: It's not Chinese.)


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.