Songbook: "Sing Out Joyfully" to Jehovah

[James the Less]

8 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Yes, the five words "You Did It For Me" is a direct quote. In Swedish it becomes "Ni gjorde det för mig" which is a bit longer, so those words are retained like that in the title only. The third phrase in the chorus, and the last phrases are "Det ni gjorde för dem, ni gjorde för mig". which literally translates into "What (or, that) you did for them, you did for me", which conveys the same thought while fitting the music. Not only do you need to fit the syllables, but also the melody of the language.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

Right... So the point that Brother Andrej was making (I think), is that if the lyrics have to change somewhat regardless when they are translated into other languages, how could you attribute the changes to the lyrics to a matter of 'easier to translate'?

[jwhess]

1 hour ago, jscotchie said:

Right... So the point that Brother Andrej was making (I think), is that if the lyrics have to change somewhat regardless when they are translated into other languages, how could you attribute the changes to the lyrics to a matter of 'easier to translate'?

Perhaps the explanation is from the sending end rather than from the receiving end.  In our videos on translation, the non-English speaking translators are inquiring from the English staff what the words REALLY convey (in English).   When we printed our Bible in the 1940's we used the term "vain glories of life" (1 John 2:16 - AV).  When we translated the NWT we used "showy display" in stead.  I am not suggesting that in the 1950's we were simplifying for translation in Navajo or Tagalog.  I am using this as an example.  If you were a Navajo translator, you would need to know what 'vain glories' really means in English.  Then you can wrestle with the conversion into the Navajo tongue.  It is true that the final translated sentence may be longer or more syllables but it accurately reflect the English meaning.  So to make the translation work more efficient on the English side, use simpler, more direct and concise words.

[Thesauron]

Right... So the point that Brother Andrej was making (I think), is that if the lyrics have to change somewhat regardless when they are translated into other languages, how could you attribute the changes to the lyrics to a matter of 'easier to translate'?

With a clear and concise original text, it becomes easier for a translator to convey the idea in his or her own language. There are a number of other things that have been done to make translations easier too. The number and length of direct quotes have decreased, and so have the number of rhymes, which, incidentally, makes the poetry more modern. Rhymes are not that common in modern poetry.

[Hope]

Rhymes and rhythmic patterns are incredible memory aids, though.  I would say that much particularly rhythm is what makes any song "catchy".

 

Many might say that modern poetry is not as deep and emotive as some of the classics.. just an impression

[James the Less]

I thought it was interesting how a few songs like "Make Sure of the More Important Things," "Gratitude for Divine Patience," and "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize!" now have choruses to emphasise the key thoughts. Choruses are a good memory aid as well.

[Thesauron]

Rhymes and rhythmic patterns are incredible memory aids, though.  I would say that much particularly rhythm is what makes any song "catchy".
 
Many might say that modern poetry is not as deep and emotive as some of the classics.. just an impression

They are, but if they are a hindrance to the translators (and to the original writers too, sometimes) it does not make sense to use them too much.

Did you know that the poetry in the Bible contains a lot of rhymes and other textual tricks? But when preparing the NWT they were all disposed of in favour of a clear and modern text. Maybe there will be annotations in the online study edition where you find them in the original text and how they were read and used. (You might wish that you could understand old Hebrew to be able to read them, but even so it would not be the same thing, as 2000 years or more has passed and so has our way of thinking and talking.)


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[And_Ray]

Right... So the point that Brother Andrej was making (I think), is that if the lyrics have to change somewhat regardless when they are translated into other languages, how could you attribute the changes to the lyrics to a matter of 'easier to translate'?

My point was that making the songs easier for translation wasn't the main reason for making changes to the lyrics. If that was the case, they wouldn't make a new song that is verbatim from the Bible. It wouldn't make sense.
"You did it for me" is a prime example. If they wanted to paraphrase the Bible instead of using verbatim phrases, this song wouldn't exist.
So no. I would say (it's my personal opinion), making it easier for translation is it the reason #1 for making changes to songs that quoted scriptures e.g. #23.

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[MizPeg]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Dismal_Bliss said:

 

 

 

I think she was just looking for a reason to use "nary" in a sentence

 

Gee whiz!  All of these posts, and nary a one of you were right there while the songs were being created,  recorded or placed .

Has humility, and gratitude flown out the window?

And nary one to say,"wish I had been!!!!!!

[jayrtom]

On ‎11‎-‎10‎-‎2016 at 2:21 AM, jwhess said:

The new songbook has songs that occupy FOUR pages.  If not scrolling you will be flipping.

 

On ‎11‎-‎10‎-‎2016 at 4:46 AM, Hope said:

I'm good with turning pages.  Scrolling- especially a song that long- not so much.

I can scroll on my 8'' tablet with my thumb while I hold the tablet with the other 4 fingers and half of my palm and keep my other hand holding my wife's hand ;)

On ‎11‎-‎10‎-‎2016 at 9:15 PM, Hope said:

Another comment...

 

I am vibing off of Tortuga's thread about needing an "attitude adjustment".

 

I haven't spent time poring over the lyrics like Brother Johan has... but I just had a peek at "Jehovah Is My Shepherd".  

 

WHYYYY?????  Is there a need to replace lyrics taken nearly verbatim from the Bible with more mundane, non-inspired words?  Forgive me, but the new lyrics make the song almost trite, missing the simple beauty of the actual psalm.  I felt/feel the same about "A Victory Song" -- in the brown book, it was also nearly verbatim from Exodus 15; it made you feel like you were singing right along with those Israelites.  Some of the power is removed, in my opinion.

 

I know.  I know.  This is merely a personal rant and I'll sing all the songs as written.  And I'll get over it.  Just that music and our songs in particular are intensely personal to me.  I'm all for correctness, ease of translation, etc.  But it just sorta bugs me on a few different levels to have scriptural verses replaced with human paraphrasing (for lack of a better term).

 

Does anybody know what I mean?  I'm a bit scared to check other lyrics...  

You had to sing in Hebraic to feel that, not English ;) --> Besides we have the lyrics of the songs David compose but we don't have the sheet music so why try to replicate exactly what he sang? We can read the Psalm and imagine David singing. On the other hand our current songs have other objective than putting music into bible words

On ‎12‎-‎10‎-‎2016 at 5:18 PM, Hope said:

Again, to all -- I am well aware of the reasonings and technical details of translating songs, revised understandings, intense consideration by the GB and Writing Committee, etc.  And I don't think other languages need to match English... they can find their own way to express the scriptures.

 

My only "beef" ( if it's even that ) is the loss of actually singing the scriptures and less lyrical lyrics.  I don't hold song lyrics to the same "I MUST UNDERSTAND IT ON FIRST READING!!!" standard that I do for regular literature (art requires more insight and scrutiny and lyrics paint word pictures. They don't photograph them).  I shall soldier on unconquered, however.    Our songs are worship to Jehovah and that deserves my best.

I think you do your best to Jehovah when you sing the songs our FDS gave us in the best way you can... (And I know you sure can do that much better than me ;))... And not by singing songs the way you think should have been made

On ‎17‎-‎10‎-‎2016 at 9:56 PM, nanceebgd46 said:

Those above lyrics are so sterile....they just don't touch ones heart...just like many, many songs in our

current songbook...some are O.K....still, many more don't rouse  any emotion....the lyrics are so

dry and pedestrian.  I don't know why this is transpiring....but....it seems to be going from bad to worse.

 

For myself, I'd rather we'd go back to,,,"Singing and Accompanying yourselves with music in your Heart."

I can remember being at conventions...with thousands and thousands of people singing...and we almost

tore the roof off...I haven't heard that level of enthusiasm  since we started using our current songbook.

 

This is just my opinion...but, I feel a real loss when it comes to our music/singing  as part of our

worship...there just isn't much ...there....there anymore!

 

 

For me the music touches my heart when I think on the hard work the brothers put into this and other efforts for our joy - The whole brotherhood, not A or B - And I really don't scrutinize anything, just try to learn the lyrics as they are and sing... And I really love the songs. I loved the other ones and the previous ones also... Always love them and don't even think what should or shouldn't be there. If you try to use a magnifying glass on it you'll see lot's of imperfection, just as if you do the same on looking into your brother or sister... How could you love all of them if you did that? ;)

[Ivine]

Sometimes we feel hard to fit to changes. However, we have to remember and to understand that changes is necessary. Yes, there are some songs in our current songbook that are OK but when we compare them with the trash music they have in christendom, our songs is just amazing and we feel proud to sing them.

 

I personally don't like to sing songs with many difficult words to speak that is hard understading. A clean and easy song touches much more my heart.

 

 

[Ivine]

9 hours ago, Thesauron said:

With a clear and concise original text, it becomes easier for a translator to convey the idea in his or her own language. There are a number of other things that have been done to make translations easier too. The number and length of direct quotes have decreased, and so have the number of rhymes, which, incidentally, makes the poetry more modern. Rhymes are not that common in modern poetry.

There are some songs that are tough in Portuguese. I mean, they are so different from English version. For example, the song 147 - Special Possession - when I sing them in the meetings I don't think I'm singing the same song that our brothers around the world. I will translate literally the first part of it in English:

 

Song 147 - Jehovah's Anointed Sons

1. God has separated a nation

That loves His law

Choosen and saints

Priests and kings

 

(CHORUS)

Your anointed sons

To the Lamb they are loyals

Spread Your name

And the Kingdom, at last, will bring the peace

 

The others songs aren't so different as this.

[jayrtom]

There are some songs that are tough in Portuguese. I mean, they are so different from English version. For example, the song 147 - Special Possession - when I sing them in the meetings I don't think I'm singing the same song that our brothers around the world. I will translate literally the first part of it in English:
 
Song 147 - Jehovah's Anointed Sons
1. God has separated a nation
That loves His law
Choosen and saints
Priests and kings
 
(CHORUS)
Your anointed sons
To the Lamb they are loyals
Spread Your name
And the Kingdom, at last, will bring the peace
 
The others songs aren't so different as this.

But you read and compare the entire song it doesn't seem so different... All the ideas are there not necessarily on the same order or verse ;)

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, MizPeg said:

Gee whiz!  All of these posts, and nary a one of you were right there while the songs were being created,  recorded or placed .

Has humility, and gratitude flown out the window?

And nary one to say,"wish I had been!!!!!!

I still have absolutely no idea what your point is..

[juliansan]

1 minute ago, Tortuga said:

I still have absolutely no idea what your point is..

I think it's because some are complaining about the changes with out knowing why the changes were made. 

[Tortuga]

Just now, juliansan said:

I think it's because some are complaining about the changes with out knowing why the changes were made. 

I'm not a singer and my musical ability is limited to occasional whistling so I didn't read this thread in depth, however it looked like a discussion of the changes and why they may have been made. There may be some lamenting but that is too be expected with any change.  We lament, we accept, we move on, it's all part of the process. Just because someone laments a change doesn't mean they don't appreciate what they have. I don't think it's very nice to chastise someone for lamenting.

[juliansan]

I think we just need time to get used to it.

[Tortuga]

Just now, juliansan said:

I think we just need time to get used to it.

Exactly, and those that have a deeper understanding of music and a deeper appreciation of the songs may take a little longer to get use to the new songs than those of us that can't carry a tune in a bucket.

 

When my wife and I go to a restaurant she'll give me an in depth analysis about the food, what they did right, what they did wrong,  I'm just glad it's on my plate. I don't criticize her level of appreciation.

 

Anyhow, I'm glad that we have forum members that have such a deep appreciation for the old songs and the new songs and are able to openly discuss the differences. 

[Thesauron]

There are some songs that are tough in Portuguese. I mean, they are so different from English version. For example, the song 147 - Special Possession - when I sing them in the meetings I don't think I'm singing the same song that our brothers around the world. I will translate literally the first part of it in English:
 
Song 147 - Jehovah's Anointed Sons
1. God has separated a nation
That loves His law
Choosen and saints
Priests and kings
 
(CHORUS)
Your anointed sons
To the Lamb they are loyals
Spread Your name
And the Kingdom, at last, will bring the peace
 
The others songs aren't so different as this.

You know, sometimes you need to turn things around a bit, and that's OK. Did you know that the songs are translated back into English to be approved? In fact, the textual changes made to various publications to suit a specific territory are approved just the same.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[Ivine]

1 hour ago, jayrtom said:

But you read and compare the entire song it doesn't seem so different... All the ideas are there not necessarily on the same order or verse ;)

I have noted it. Anyway, the feeling of something different is still there.

[Tortuga]

5 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

You know, sometimes you need to turn things around a bit, and that's OK. Did you know that the songs are translated back into English to be approved? In fact, the textual changes made to various publications to suit a specific territory are approved just the same.

I have a dumb question, were some of the songs originally written in another language and translated to English?

Haven't some of the songs originated in other countries?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Tortuga

[Thesauron]

My point was that making the songs easier for translation wasn't the main reason for making changes to the lyrics. If that was the case, they wouldn't make a new song that is verbatim from the Bible. It wouldn't make sense.
"You did it for me" is a prime example. If they wanted to paraphrase the Bible instead of using verbatim phrases, this song wouldn't exist.
So no. I would say (it's my personal opinion), making it easier for translation is it the reason #1 for making changes to songs that quoted scriptures e.g. #23.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

It is a paraphrase with a few quotes. We have a number of songs like that. If it works, it works. The translation seldom becomes a direct quote, though, but rather something that conveys the same or similar idea.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[Thesauron]

I have a dumb question, were some of the songs originally written in another language and translated to English?
Haven't some of the songs originated in other countries?

That is true. But the lyrics that end up in the songbook are translations from English.


____
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."—Matthew 6:21.

[And_Ray]

I have a dumb question, were some of the songs originally written in another language and translated to English?
Haven't some of the songs originated in other countries?

Song #17 is written in sachsenhausen concentration camp on German. It was featured on a broadcasting. It was July edition I think

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[Hope]

3 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Exactly, and those that have a deeper understanding of music and a deeper appreciation of the songs may take a little longer to get use to the new songs than those of us that can't carry a tune in a bucket.

 

When my wife and I go to a restaurant she'll give me an in depth analysis about the food, what they did right, what they did wrong,  I'm just glad it's on my plate. I don't criticize her level of appreciation.

 

Anyhow, I'm glad that we have forum members that have such a deep appreciation for the old songs and the new songs and are able to openly discuss the differences. 

I really and truly appreciate that you wrote this, Richard.   Thank you so much.

 

It's never nice to feel that expressing one's opinion will result in constant chastisement or correction.  Opinions are not facts, are they?  They just speak to how one feels about something.

 

I know there are fantastic reasons for the songs ending up like they are.  I am absolutely happy about the revision to the lyrics in the "Now We Are One" and the former song #85 so that singles don't have to feel so pathetic singing them.   Perhaps other people are not happy with those changes, but I won't chastise them.  It does, however, speak to the fact that what was once "gold star approved" lyrics have been re-thought... so I'm not going to feel too badly about not being over the moon about some of the changes we're seeing now.  Who knows what will be rewritten in the future?

 

Music is an intensely personal experience for me.  It may not be for others -- but it's the ONE thing I have in my life that allows me to really "feel" deeply about things without potential disappointment (and I don't need to sing in ancient Hebrew... just in words meaningful to me).  Usually.   When I feel disappointed about music, it affects me... but I'll get over it.  It will be challenging because it actually IS a big deal for me.  But it's not the end of the world.

 

Yet...

[William]

Anyone seen the videos that will be used in congregation meetings yet?