Cultural accents and mispronunciation

[Tortuga]

13 minutes ago, Hope said:

WHATTT????  Mispronouncing words is  not "cultural"- it's lazy.

Time for an off-topic sidebar...

 

There is an interesting history about using the word 'axe' instead of 'ask'.

This writer thinks it's a cultural issue

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/19/opinion/la-oe-mcwhorter-black-speech-ax-20140119

 

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Tortuga

[Hope]

If someone is mispronouncing a word after learning the correct way, it's lazy.  No one in my congregations (or classrooms) could get away with it... and we had the old-timey-est, country black brothers you could imagine.

 

Excusing lazy speech as "cultural" is insulting, imo.... I don't care what study is done.  Like Ebonics- it's just not correct English.

[Tortuga]

18 minutes ago, Hope said:

If someone is mispronouncing a word after learning the correct way, it's lazy.  No one in my congregations (or classrooms) could get away with it... and we had the old-timey-est, country black brothers you could imagine.

 

Excusing lazy speech as "cultural" is insulting, imo.... I don't care what study is done.  Like Ebonics- it's just not correct English.

(knowingly off-topic)

 

The writer of that article agreed with PJDriver and felt it was cultural. Do you think it is more demographic instead of culture?

[Hope]

I feel it's lame and lazy.

[Tortuga]

6 minutes ago, Hope said:

I feel it's lame and lazy.

So do I, I'm sure there is a gooder or more correcter way to say it....

Edited November 12, 2016 by Tortuga

[Sylv]

One of our elders says "bra" instead of "brother".

[Hope]

8 minutes ago, Sylv said:

One of our elders says "bra" instead of "brother".

Not whenever he says "brother", though .  Does he ?   Like when calling someone's name or from the platform? 

 

I don't think a casual abbreviation is the same as a mispronunciation.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Hope

[Tortuga]

7 minutes ago, Sylv said:

One of our elders says "bra" instead of "brother".

Where is he from?

[kejedo]

15 hours ago, Hope said:

That hilarious.  I grew up in a predominately "black culture" - whatever that may actually mean - and a soul patch has never been described as "cultural"... at all.  Some brothers wear them, some don't.  Some don't like them (read: elders) and advise others against them.  

 

I don't think it's cultural - unless it's like how white brothers can wear their hair longer than black brothers without any eyebrows raised - even if it's also curly (think about it).  It's simply a grooming choice with more or fewer supporters... not unlike wearing a beard could be.  

I just saw a piece of paper in which my middle son was listed as 'white.' He always says, "black, half-rican or mixed." But someone over-rode his self definition.  I think all of my sons would look fine with a soul patch, but I don't want my middle son accused as trying to pass for black. It is a strange figure of speech.  My husband has an ancestral relative that was born white and died three days later as black. I will be glad when such imagined distinctions are no longer relevant.  

                                                                                                                                                         Y (appreciates Jehovah's beautiful diversity) S

[Shawnster]

43 minutes ago, Hope said:

Not whenever he says "brother", though .  Does he ?   Like when calling someone's name or from the platform? 

 

I don't think a casual abbreviation is the same as a mispronunciation.

 

Interesting idea for a new topic

[kejedo]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

Time for an off-topic sidebar...

 

There is an interesting history about using the word 'axe' instead of 'ask'.

This writer thinks it's a cultural issue

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/19/opinion/la-oe-mcwhorter-black-speech-ax-20140119

 

 

 

" these two forms have both existed for centuries, and [aks] was considered the “correct” form for much of that time." from making noise and hearing th ings .com As an English teacher I taught all my students that Aks, Ask, And Axe are all appropriate verbs for "inquire." Ask and axe are about 50/50 in both Britain and the US.  I understand the writer's opinion that since some uneducated persons look down on the interogative  'axe', then people should sway to avoid being looked down on. I believe educating the uneducated or at least teaching them not to judge is more important.  

                                                                                                                                                      Y (loves the Pure Language)S

[Hope]

Maybe another different / related topic:  is not liking something the same as judging - in the negative sense?

 

I don't say axe instead of ask.  If I hear others use it, it grates my ears, but I never correct them- unless it's my child.

 

I'm all for live and let live... axe, beards, fig leaves... but I don't *think* that requires my approval or else I'm judgemental. Or does it? 

[Sylv]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

Not whenever he says "brother", though .  Does he ?   Like when calling someone's name or from the platform? 

 

I don't think a casual abbreviation is the same as a mispronunciation.

 

Yep. Even from the platform.

[Hope]

Interesting 

[Sylv]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

Where is he from?

Somewhere in Africa, I believe Nigeria.

[Pjdriver]

3 hours ago, Hope said:

WHATTT????  Mispronouncing words is  not "cultural"- it's lazy.

 

I'm not even sure if you're joking or serious... 

Uani, I had a feeling you were going to say that. I alway thought that as well. Just lazy, maybe uneducated. BUT, then I got to know several well educated black brothers with degrees etc.... They were very articulate and fluent in their speech, and they say "axe". So I asked one brother I served with, why? I even said to him...."you do realize it's "ask" and not "axe" right?". He said he knew, and then said I guess it's a cultural thing. 

Maybe it would be more correct to say it's an accent. Don't axe me, I don't know. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Pjdriver

[timpin]

5 hours ago, Tortuga said:

(knowingly off-topic)

 

The writer of that article agreed with PJDriver and felt it was cultural. Do you think it is more demographic instead of culture?

 

4 hours ago, Sylv said:

One of our elders says "bra" instead of "brother".

Let's face the fax - Cultural without a doubt      right up there with "it's in Matthews" and "let's turn to Revelations"    'sup wit dat? 

 

 

fur real how'd groomin become grammar - yo!  you gots ta be kiddin' 

 

for a minute I thought this was the "we will all be speaking Hebrew thread"  

Edited November 12, 2016 by timpin

[Cushi]

1 hour ago, timpin said:

 

Let's face the fax - Cultural without a doubt      right up there with "it's in Matthews" and "let's turn to Revelations"    'sup wit dat? 

 

 

fur real how'd groomin become grammar - yo!  you gots ta be kiddin' 

 

for a minute I thought this was the "we will all be speaking Hebrew thread"  

 

[Musky]

Where's Raymond when we need him?

[Jmystro]

I was born in the USA and my parents are from Mexico.

 

i kind of learned in between both languages.

 

A brother gave me counsel that from the platform I use words like wanna and gonna.

 

Sigh, never noticed it until he brought it up to me.

 

I'm gonna hafta work on it.

[Tortuga]

7 hours ago, Shawnster said:

 

Interesting idea for a new topic

Shawn the Thread Killer is now Shawn the Thread Creator...tada!

[Shawnster]

10 minutes ago, Musky said:

Where's Raymond when we need him?

 

Being like Achilles and sulking in his tent?

[Musky]

 
Being like Achilles and sulking in his tent?

Maybe but I doubt for the same reason, at least I hope not!

[Tortuga]

Cultural accents and mispronunciation can be a matter of life and death!

 

(Judges 12:6) . . .they would say to him, “Please say Shibʹbo·leth.” But he would say, “Sibʹbo·leth,” as he was unable to say the word correctly. Then they would seize him and slay him at the fords of the Jordan.. . .

Edited November 13, 2016 by Tortuga

[Shawnster]

9 hours ago, Hope said:

If someone is mispronouncing a word after learning the correct way, it's lazy.  No one in my congregations (or classrooms) could get away with it... and we had the old-timey-est, country black brothers you could imagine.

 

Excusing lazy speech as "cultural" is insulting, imo.... I don't care what study is done.  Like Ebonics- it's just not correct English.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but the facts and history show otherwise.  I actually agree with you that lazy speech is insulting and, along with Ebonics, is not correct English.  At some point, though, the mispronunciations do become cultural norms.  Isn't that how dialects start?  Isn't that what dialects really are- mispronunciations?  The United States has several English dialects.  The English speaking original settlers had their own dialects despite the fact that English must have been started in one geographic location and everyone pronounced it the same way, originally.

 

Like mispronunciation, misspelling is also cultural.  The Founding Fathers in the United States, for example, intentionally misspelled certain words - removing the letter U - in order to forcibly create a separate English speaking culture different than England.  Colour, Neighbour, Flavour, etc...  are not spelled the same way on either side of The Pond.  

 

Back to the topic of pronunciation...  We had a missionary come back home for a visit and he shared some experiences.  The country he was preaching in was an English speaking country, but they did not pronounce words the same way we do here.  He asked them, for example, if they had much problems with people smoking marijuana ( merəˈ(h)wänə).  The answer was "no, but we do have a problem with people smoking marijuana ( merəˈju wänə). They pronounced the J with a soft g sound (like in orange or gym).  His point in sharing this was he had to adapt to the local culture and that included pronouncing words the way they did.

 

Nobody is excusing lazy speech as cultural but, on the other hand, that is what is happening.  There are entire neighborhoods where this lazy speech is the common vernacular.   These neighborhoods are developing their own culture just as the Southern US developed their own culture different than the Northeastern US, etc...