Vegan and vegetarian brothers and sisters

[Meditate!]

1 hour ago, Naturale said:

I thought you only wanted raw?  I thought that's why you didn't eat baked potatoes etc?

it 'was' raw.... before it was cooked 

 

He can eat what he wants.. Doesn't bother me if he changed his diet completely. At least Jack 'seemed' to know what did him good.

[Cushi]

4 hours ago, Naturale said:

I thought you only wanted raw?  I thought that's why you didn't eat baked potatoes etc?

 No, remember, I said I’m eating 1 cooked meal a week. That was the plan until my 33rd birthday, October 8th. I decided not to go fully raw because cutting out cooked food when I only eat 1 cooked meal a week is not going to make a difference when it comes to weight loss. I’ve lost 10 lbs and I lose more than I gain by eating cooked food. Plus, it gives me something to look forward to every week.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Brother Jack

[Naturale]

43 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

 No, remember, I said I’m eating 1 cooked meal a week. That was the plan until my 33rd birthday, October 8th. I decided not to go fully raw because cutting out cooked food when I only eat 1 cooked meal a week is not going to make a difference when it comes to weight loss. I’ve lost 10 lbs and I lose more than I gain by eating cooked food. Plus, it gives me something to look forward to every week.

Ok I see.  Yes I forgot you said that.  So you can have a baked potato - white or sweet with a big salad too 

[Guri]

Just now, Naturale said:

Ok I see.  Yes I forgot you said that.  So you can have a baked potato - white or sweet with a big salad too 

Sounds so good. May I too have some?  

[Thesauron]

(From the online menu) Red sauce base, vegan ham, smoky seitan, ground seitan, red onions and Daiya cheese.

What is ‘vegan ham’ and ‘daiya cheese”?

[McKay]

7 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

What is ‘vegan ham’ and ‘daiya cheese”?

This is my whole issue with vegan food. If meat is so bad why are they always trying to make stuff taste like meat?

[Thesauron]

This is my whole issue with vegan food. If meat is so bad why are they always trying to make stuff taste like meat?

Completely unnecessary, I guess, unless you must avoid meat because of some illness not of your choice, and you really long for something that reminds you of meat. Also, it is sometimes made using non-sustainable methods with a lot of chemicals, or with products that you need to transport halfway across the globe.

[Cushi]

19 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

What is ‘vegan ham’ and ‘daiya cheese”?

A vegan version of ham and cheese.

[Cushi]

18 minutes ago, ZDR said:

This is my whole issue with vegan food. If meat is so bad why are they always trying to make stuff taste like meat?

I used to think that before I went vegan. Most vegans will admit that food made with real meat tastes good. But those of use who went vegan for health reasons would still like to eat foods like burgers and pizza without subjecting ourselves to the risk of heart disease, hypertension, and type 2 diabetes since they are healthier options. Also, those who went vegan for environmental or “ethical” reasons want to still eat this type of food without supporting companies that waste billions of gallons of water, hurt the environment and mistreat animals to make meat for consumption. 

 

Also, vegan food designed to taste like meat are good transitional foods. Most people who have developed a palate for the standard American diet are not going to stop eating meat cold turkey and start eating bananas, watermelon, broccoli, etc. They usually have to transition with “vegan meat.”

Edited June 21, 2019 by Brother Jack

[Qapla]

Actually, I like eating bananas, watermelon and/or broccoli with my cold turkey ...

[Thesauron]

A vegan version of ham and cheese.

Yes. What would that be?

[Thesauron]

I used to think that before I went vegan. Most vegans will admit that food made with real meat tastes good. But those of use who went vegan for health reasons would still like to eat foods like burgers and pizza without subjecting ourselves to the risk of heart disease, hypertension, and type 2 diabetes since they are healthier options. Also, those who went vegan for environmental or “ethical” reasons want to still eat this type of food without supporting companies that waste billions of gallons of water, hurt the environment and mistreat animals to make meat for consumption. 
 
Also, vegan food designed to taste like meat are good transitional foods. Most people who have developed a palate for the standard American diet are not going to stop eating meat cold turkey and start eating bananas, watermelon, broccoli, etc. They usually have to transition with “vegan meat.”

It is a mistake, though, to think that vegan food automatically is healthier or more environmentally friendly. You still need to do research. Is it better to transport cassava from South America to Canada to produce a substitute than raising and using produce from a locally raised goat?

[BenJepthah]

13 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

It is a mistake, though, to think that vegan food automatically is healthier or more environmentally friendly. You still need to do research. Is it better to transport cassava from South America to Canada to produce a substitute than raising and using produce from a locally raised goat?

This is my issue. Not Vegan or vegetarian options per se’ .  Almond Milk is a good example. The reality this far is that Almond Milk actually is worse environmentally than Bovine Milk because the water resources required to grow Almond trees then take a dry almond and make it seem something like milk in flavor and texture actually consumes more water resources than the same per gallons in Dairy production. And further: much like the production of Palm Oil. Natural areas are converted into monocultures. With Cattle , a grassland gets to remain a grassland . Butterflies, filed mice, Gopher tortoises , and many other native species do not suddenly find themselves displaced.  This is even more stark when grazing land is converted to soybean production. Usually with a hefty starter crop of GMO roundup ready soybeans. 

[Naturale]

3 hours ago, Guri said:

Sounds so good. May I too have some?  

You sure can

[Naturale]

3 hours ago, ZDR said:

This is my whole issue with vegan food. If meat is so bad why are they always trying to make stuff taste like meat?

I avoid processed food and I don't buy processed vegan stuff for that very reason. The reason that I am not a meat eater is because I don't like very much of it and can't digest it very well. I don't like the look of it or the smell and other reasons too of course.   I'm not a strict vegetarian so I'm not saying I wouldn't have something once in a blue moon, maybe on holiday for eg.  I may have oily fish here and there.  

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Naturale

[New World Explorer]

I am not a vegetarian, but I do limit consumption of red meat where possible, I don't like steaks a lot, but the ribs on the other hand I will enjoy.

I would describe our household as limited partakers of meat, balancing with a lot of veggie products, Mediterranean style cooking.

Yesterday I had lots of spinach and beetroot with 3 meatballs, so the ratio was 70% veggies, 30% meat.

 

So we don't make either camp, but strive for more healthy diet, by balancing rations and amount of meat that lands on our plate.

[Thesauron]

I am not a vegetarian, but I do limit consumption of red meat where possible, I don't like steaks a lot, but the ribs on the other hand I will enjoy.
I would describe our household as limited partakers of meat, balancing with a lot of veggie products, Mediterranean style cooking.
Yesterday I had lots of spinach and beetroot with 3 meatballs, so the ratio was 70% veggies, 30% meat.
 
So we don't make either camp, but strive for more healthy diet, by balancing rations and amount of meat that lands on our plate.

That’s good! Don’t pin yourself down with rigid rules about what you can and cannot eat. Eat well, eat less meat, eat more locally sourced. Everything in moderation.

[Gary910]

10 hours ago, ZDR said:

This is my whole issue with vegan food. If meat is so bad why are they always trying to make stuff taste like meat?

I think this is a valid point. There are many places on the Vegetarian/Vegan spectrum. I have a couple of times tried to be vegan. Didn't work for me. I like eggs, butter, cheese, butter, sour cream, butter... did I say, butter? And I would miss butter if I was vegan. I would have to cheat and eat some butter. Mmmm, butter...

 

Come back to reality... Off in my butter dream...

 

I am strict vegetarian... no meat, no gravy (that is meat based), no gelatin, etc. But I like the texture of meat. I love animals, and I feel better not eating meat. The feeling better not eating meat is the core reason I am a vegetarian. Fake meat tastes good. I can eat it and know that an animal didn't die. I try to have a balanced attitude towards others that eat meat. Jehovah gave humans the right to eat meat. I am never going to condemn someone for eating meat, as I don't want to be condemned for not eating meat, or for eating... ummm, butter... animal products.

 

Bottom line... as Christians, eating is to sustain us so that we can bring praise and worship our Heavenly Father Jehovah. I think we should make personal choices as to what helps us to do so. If being vegan makes you feel better, then be a vegan. If you feel eating meat, or being a Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian (as I am) is good, that is what you should do. That is what is so beautiful about how Jehovah treats us. He gives us the freedom to decide. We are so much more free than the World, and they think they are more free. Funny the way that works.

[McKay]

11 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

Also, those who went vegan for environmental or “ethical” reasons want to still eat this type of food without supporting companies that waste billions of gallons of water, hurt the environment and mistreat animals to make meat for consumption.

Serious question on this point: how concerned should we be with these sort of social or political issues? And where does it end? Every car you drive wastes water, electricity, metal, glass, and fossil fuels because vehicles are an inefficient use of resources but are necessary because of the commercial part of Satan's world. Ever been to a movie theater? That celluloid film uses more water than some villages use in a year just to produce one movie! Did you pay sales tax today? A portion of those revenues were used by your local or state government to fund some very unchristian activities.

 

My point is that this world is completely wicked through and through and well-intentioned as we might be, our choices will not put a dent in the problem or make one bit of difference. Satan's world cannot fix school lunches! And even if we lived off the land in the middle of Alaska in order to save or conserve resources we would still not be at peace with the animals and would still have to possibly take an animal life to defend ourselves.

 

I know I'm using extreme examples but when we start making choices about diet based on solving mankind's problems, I think we walk a slippery slope. Nor do I think Jehovah expects us to go to such extremes. He understands the world we live in. He's not holding us to account for driving to work and creating pollution or paying taxes that is used by the military to bomb innocent people. Are we personally throwing litter on the ground? Or torturing animals? Then we'll have to answer for our actions. Besides that, a little balance is important as is remembering that all our efforts to fix global warming and industrial mistreatment of animals is folly. Only God's kingdom can fix these things.

 

Having said all of this, if your conscience truly bothers you by driving a car, eating a chicken, or using Styrofoam then go forth and avoid those things. Never go to bed with a bad conscience. And in the end, you may all be right.

Edited June 22, 2019 by ZDR

[Myew]

On 6/17/2019 at 7:17 AM, ZDR said:

This, from the Insight book on animals:

 

"God-fearing men see in animals part of God’s generous provision for human welfare. Animals have served man as burden bearers, as sources of food and clothing, as sanitation agents, and as helpers in the vital activities of plowing and harvesting. Their variety of form and color has delighted his eye; their habits and instincts have been and still are an extensive field for inquiry into the marvels of God’s creative work." https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000281#h=1:0-16:626

 

There is another quote I remember that says ostensibly the same thing, but I can't find it right now.

 

My main point in making my previous statements was to illustrate the imbalance between what vegans believe versus the dignity Jehovah expects us to afford his animal creation. I quoted earlier from the official vegan website that admits the stated reason for eating vegan is to promote equality among all living things and to treat them all equally. But Jehovah does not give animals the same elevated status as humans. Veganism (as an ideology) seeks to exalt animals in this way.

I apologize for having argued over semantics. I often struggle with reading things in a literal way as well. While I agree with your view on the ideology of veganism that puts humans on the same level as other "evolved" animals to be wrong, after more reading on the subject I still disagree that animals were created for the express purpose of promoting human enjoyment or welfare and that Jehovah doesn't feel deeply for them as individual creations. Jesus rejoiced over the inhabitable earth long before becoming 'especially' fond of men. I see animals created by Jehovah being able to lead content and independent lives completely separate from humans, for millions of years before humans even existed. Of course, I see animals as being very enjoyable companions and even as friends because they were designed by Jehovah to reflect specific qualities of his and the ability to benefit from working alongside us humans, but I can't see them as being created solely for human enjoyment or use. They are made subject to humans, but I see their creation being for the furthering of Jehovah's purposes and to direct mankind to glorify Him. He holds us responsible for how we treat them because they belong to him, just as we and everything in the earth belong to him. But, that is just my flawed way of seeing things, and I am making efforts to try and learn how to show better respect for others viewpoints.

 

11 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

those of use who went vegan for health reasons would still like to eat foods like burgers and pizza without subjecting ourselves to the risk of heart disease, hypertension, and type 2 diabetes since they are healthier options

I would kindly ask that you please take note of this nutritional science. These videos and their references explain far better than I can how scientific studies have proven that refined carbohydrates and vegetable/seed oils like margarine lead directly to inflammation, which is the root cause of heart disease and much of obesity and diabetes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S6-v37nOtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8BGYhreaco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofq-8ToY2fc I am all for using temporary transitional foods if it helps people to break bad habits and find healthier alternatives. It took me several years of making transitions to find what diets work best for my health conditions. However, even though I was eating slightly healthier nutritionally, what I was eating was still causing a great deal of inflammation and contributing to chronic illness. I'm even still suffering now from permanent damage caused by chronic illness when my diseases were more severe, but it's become easier to manage. Again, my intent is not to discourage people from eating in a vegan diet template, but to educate people with the facts of what they are eating so that they can make sound choices. Here are some Awake articles that may apply. https://jwtalk.net/topic/36933-1970-awakes-warn-of-coming-changes-in-food/
(Ecclesiastes 7:12) For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner.

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Myew

[Cushi]

10 hours ago, Thesauron said:

It is a mistake, though, to think that vegan food automatically is healthier or more environmentally friendly. You still need to do research. Is it better to transport cassava from South America to Canada to produce a substitute than raising and using produce from a locally raised goat?

Dude, not again...  I forgot to put in my comment that vegan junk/comfort foods are not always 100% healthy but are usually healthier than meat comfort foods just for you 😉 I know that not all vegan food is healthy. It’s still possible to be vegan and have a bad diet... but a hamburger from McDonald’s is more likely to be more unhealthy than a veggie burger from a vegan restaurant. Just google meats large water footprint. It takes 1,800 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of beef and 576 gallons of water to produce a pound of pork. One study suggested that  ‘veganism is the single biggest way to reduce our environmental impact on the planet.’ The study said that ‘meat and dairy production is responsible for 60 percent of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions, while the products themselves provide just 18 percent of calories and 37 percent of protein levels around the world.’

The study found that if everyone stopped eating meat, global farmland could be reduced by 75 percent, and area equivalent to the US, China, Australia and the EU combined. It also said that “it would free up wild land lost to agriculture, one of the primary causes of mass wildlife extinction.” 

I’m not saying everyone should stop eating meat and go vegan. These are just the facts when it comes to the environmental impact meat production has. 

And trust me, I have done research. I don’t make lifestyle changes, especially ones this big without doing research first. 

[Cushi]

21 minutes ago, ZDR said:

Serious question on this point: how concerned should we be with these sort of social or political issues? And where does it end? Every car you drive wastes water, electricity, metal, glass, and fossil fuels because vehicles are an inefficient use of resources but are necessary because of the commercial part of Satan's world. Ever been to a movie theater? That celluloid film uses more water than some villages use in a year just to produce one movie! Did you pay sales tax today? A portion of those revenues were used by your local or state government to fund some very unchristian activities.

 

My point is that this world is completely wicked through and through and well-intentioned as we might be, our choices will not put a dent in the problem or make one bit of difference. Satan's world cannot fix school lunches! And even if we lived off the land in the middle of Alaska in order to save or conserve resources we would still not be at peace with the animals and would still have to possibly take an animal life to defend ourselves.

 

I know I'm using extreme examples but when we start making choices about diet based on solving mankind's problems, I think we walk a slippery slope. Nor do I think Jehovah expects us to go to such extremes. He understands the world we live in. He's not holding us to account for driving to work and creating pollution or paying taxes that is used by the military to bomb innocent people. Are we personally throwing litter on the ground? Or torturing animals? Then we'll have to answer for our actions. Besides that, a little balance is important as is remembering that all our efforts to fix global warming and industrial mistreatment of animals is folly. Only God's kingdom can fix these things.

 

Having said all of this, if your conscience truly bothers you by driving a car, eating a chicken, or using Styrofoam then go forth and avoid those things. Never go to bed with a bad conscience. And in the end, you may all be right.

Read my post carefully. I never said I was vegan for environmental reasons. I said “us who went vegan for health reasons.” I did it for my health. I was simply speaking on why some who actually do go vegan for environmental reasons eat vegan food designed to taste like meat. I care about the environment, but I’m reasonable. I still have to have transportation, fly etc.

[Thesauron]

Dude, not again...  I forgot to put in my comment that vegan junk/comfort foods are not always 100% healthy but are usually healthier than meat comfort foods just for you  I know that not all vegan food is healthy. It’s still possible to be vegan and have a bad diet... but a hamburger from McDonald’s is more likely to be more unhealthy than a veggie burger from a vegan restaurant. Just google meats large water footprint. It takes 1,800 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of beef and 576 gallons of water to produce a pound of pork. One study suggested that  ‘veganism is the single biggest way to reduce our environmental impact on the planet.’ The study said that ‘meat and dairy production is responsible for 60 percent of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions, while the products themselves provide just 18 percent of calories and 37 percent of protein levels around the world.’
The study found that if everyone stopped eating meat, global farmland could be reduced by 75 percent, and area equivalent to the US, China, Australia and the EU combined. It also said that “it would free up wild land lost to agriculture, one of the primary causes of mass wildlife extinction.” 
I’m not saying everyone should stop eating meat and go vegan. These are just the facts when it comes to the environmental impact meat production has. 
And trust me, I have done research. I don’t make lifestyle changes, especially ones this big without doing research first. 

It depends on what you switch to. Do they have to transport your vegetables across the globe? How are they transported? How are they produced? What is the result for the people where they are produced? If you try to eat locally grown according to season, you will soon find out how difficult it is in many countries. People talk about a ‘hunger gap’.

I am sure you make an educated choice. Not everyone does.

[Naturale]

20 hours ago, Thesauron said:

That’s good! Don’t pin yourself down with rigid rules about what you can and cannot eat. Eat well, eat less meat, eat more locally sourced. Everything in moderation.

For some of us though it isn't about choices.  I have to follow a non meat ant-inflammatory way of eating.  I have to avoid highly processed and refined foods so definitely no white wheat bread etc.  If I do this and am strict with myself I can function normally and have lots of energy. I actually excel in health now but  If I don't eat like this then I don't have energy and at worst am in pain and don't want to get out of bed in the morning.  Therefore I have no choice.

[McKay]

2 hours ago, Naturale said:

For some of us though it isn't about choices.  I have to follow a non meat ant-inflammatory way of eating.  I have to avoid highly processed and refined foods so definitely no white wheat bread etc.  If I do this and am strict with myself I can function normally and have lots of energy. I actually excel in health now but  If I don't eat like this then I don't have energy and at worst am in pain and don't want to get out of bed in the morning.  Therefore I have no choice.

This is why I eat keto, mostly carnivore. Insulin resistance makes eating carbs very difficult if I want to lose weight. If I went vegan the doctors would probably have to remove a foot!