Vegan and vegetarian brothers and sisters

[Naturale]

.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Naturale

[Naturale]

47 minutes ago, ZDR said:

 Certain species can be invasive if left with no natural predators. Isn’t it possible (even likely) that Jehovah designed every creature with a specific role to fulfill but ALSO to serve as food for another animal further up the food chain? Just taking the example with the mongoose, what if the cobras had nothing to control their population? Wouldn’t that affect the rodent population substantially? And wouldn’t that have a further effect?

 

My point is that “unity and peace will reign among all his creatures” does not preclude the need for everything living to eat, not to mention the need for scavengers to clean up animals that die from natural causes. I find it very interesting that humans were perfectly willing to accept the “natural order” of human superiority to animals and accepting that certain behaviors seen by animals are not “vicious” but natural, and that it was only in the last century that a kind of “hippie” mentality of peace and love started to muddy that distinction. I see this in my state where bear hunts have become necessary to cull the population. People protest this out of concern for the bear’s feelings. But I promise that bear would have no problem eating that protester if it got hungry enough. Our compassion for animals has to have limits.

We do know and we go out and teach people that there will be huge changes under Kingdom rule and there will be peace between humans and animals and that animals will be at peace with one another. No more dangerous animals.  Animals at peace with one another don't prey on one another.  Instead wild and domestic animals will feed together. Even a little child will have nothing to fear from animals that are now dangerous.  Isaiah 11:6-9 -

 6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,+

And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,

And the calf and the lion* and the fattened animal will all be together;*+

And a little boy will lead them.

 7 The cow and the bear will feed together,

And their young will lie down together.

The lion will eat straw like the bull.+

 8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,

And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.

 9 They will not cause any harm+

Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,+

Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah

As the waters cover the sea.+

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Naturale

[McKay]

5 minutes ago, Naturale said:

We do know and we go out and teach people that there will be huge changes under Kingdom rule .  There will be peace between humans and animals and that animals will be at peace with one another. No more dangerous animals.  Animals at peace with one another don't prey on one another.  Instead wild and domestic animals will feed together. Even a little child will have nothing to fear from animals that are now dangerous.  isaiah 11:6-9

 6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,+

And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,

And the calf and the lion* and the fattened animal will all be together;*+

And a little boy will lead them.

 7 The cow and the bear will feed together,

And their young will lie down together.

The lion will eat straw like the bull.+

 8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,

And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.

 9 They will not cause any harm+

Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,+

Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah

As the waters cover the sea.+

 

Question then: According to our video last summer, the mongoose has a layer of fur designed to be resistant against the bite of a cobra. Why did Jehovah design the mongoose this way if those two creatures were never intended to attack each other in the first place? Or do you think this was an ability animals adapted to after Adam’s rebellion?

[Naturale]

9 minutes ago, ZDR said:

Question then: According to our video last summer, the mongoose has a layer of fur designed to be resistant against the bite of a cobra. Why did Jehovah design the mongoose this way if those two creatures were never intended to attack each other in the first place? Or do you think this was an ability animals adapted to after Adam’s rebellion?

Yes the thing is in this system  everything preys on something else.   It is one of the things that prevents some people from believing in a loving God or in God at all because they see "nature" as being so cruel.   But Jehovah is saying there will be peace and there won't be dangerous animals and predators.  Therefore nothing is as it should be according to Jehovahs purpose at this time.  Maybe  the fur of the mongoose will be useful in protecting it against something else in the future - some prickle bushes that it it will be eating.  We will have to wait and see

[McKay]

9 minutes ago, Naturale said:

Yes the thing is in this system  everything preys on something else.   It is one of the things that prevents some people from believing in a loving God or in God at all because they see "nature" as being so cruel.   But Jehovah is saying there will be peace and there won't be dangerous animals and predators.  Therefore nothing is as it should be according to Jehovahs purpose at this time.  Maybe  the fur of the mongoose will be useful in protecting it against something else in the future - some prickle bushes that it it will be eating.  We will have to wait and see

I gotcha. You bring up an interesting point, about people who have a hard time believing in God because nature is “cruel.” Says who? Who says it’s cruel? Humans? Why do we think that? Is it because we’re anthropomorphizing? As I said, humans in centuries past didn’t think this way. They didn’t see a lion hunting gazelle as “carnage.” It just was natural. So what changed? For my part, I think generations of children growing up watching cartoons of talking animals has changed the way we look at animals. That sounds ridiculous, I know, but if you think about it, we’re brought up in an environment where animals are often given human characteristics, feelings, and endeavors. It’s not too much of a stretch to start viewing treatment between animals as the same as treatment among humans. And if one human killing another is cruel, then so is one animal killing another. 

 

Then again, I’m an over thinker.

[Hope]

I think what humans consider "cruel" regarding nature and what Jehovah does could be very different concepts (shucks, it's even very different depending on various human cultures).  It is unthinkable that Jehovah wouldn't do the right thing, have the correct view on what is appropriate on His planet, right?  He is not cruel or unjust. 

 

Simply because humans- whom many view pets as more valuable than other human- think certain aspects of nature are "cruel", despite how things were obviously created, does not mean it is. Perhaps it's our way that is not adjusted right, not Jehovah's. 

 

I believe our attitude towards animals (both what's perceived to be positive and negative) will be greatly readjusted in future times.

6 minutes ago, ZDR said:

I gotcha. You bring up an interesting point, about people who have a hard time believing in God because nature is “cruel.” Says who? Who says it’s cruel? Humans? Why do we think that? Is it because we’re anthropomorphizing? As I said, humans in centuries past didn’t think this way. They didn’t see a lion hunting gazelle as “carnage.” It just was natural. So what changed? For my part, I think generations of children growing up watching cartoons of talking animals has changed the way we look at animals. That sounds ridiculous, I know, but if you think about it, we’re brought up in an environment where animals are often given human characteristics, feelings, and endeavors. It’s not too much of a stretch to start viewing treatment between animals as the same as treatment among humans. And if one human killing another is cruel, then so is one animal killing another. 

 

Then again, I’m an over thinker.

I saw this just after I hit submit! 😃

 

I agree with you. 

[Meditate!]

52 minutes ago, Hope said:

I think what humans consider "cruel" regarding nature and what Jehovah does could be very different concepts (shucks, it's even very different depending on various human cultures).  It is unthinkable that Jehovah wouldn't do the right thing, have the correct view on what is appropriate on His planet, right?  He is not cruel or unjust. 

 

Simply because humans- whom many view pets as more valuable than other human- think certain aspects of nature are "cruel", despite how things were obviously created, does not mean it is. Perhaps it's our way that is not adjusted right, not Jehovah's. 

 

I believe our attitude towards animals (both what's perceived to be positive and negative) will be greatly readjusted in future times.

I saw this just after I hit submit! 😃

 

I agree with you. 

Yes we are skewed in our thinking..

It does seem to be that the 'bigger' the animal.. The more emotional people can get. Many insects/spiders are predatory. Not many think the fly caught in a Web deserves a right to not be preyed upon. Or should be released by the spider. Will a spider not be predatory in the NS? Where do you draw the line on what is OK to be considered prey in the food chain? Larger animals do seem to evoke more concern for their welfare for some reason. 

Could be what has been said.. The media. Satan does has control over it to skew our minds away from reality. 

[Old]

10 minutes ago, Alan said:

Yes we are skewed in our thinking..

It does seem to be that the 'bigger' the animal.. The more emotional people can get. Many insects/spiders are predatory. Not many think the fly caught in a Web deserves a right to not be preyed upon. Or should be released by the spider. Will a spider not be predatory in the NS? Where do you draw the line on what is OK to be considered prey in the food chain? Larger animals do seem to evoke more concern for their welfare for some reason. 

Could be what has been said.. ..

And since Jehovah saw that it is good, who are we to argue?

Dust mites need to live too!

[McKay]

15 minutes ago, Alan said:

Yes we are skewed in our thinking..

It does seem to be that the 'bigger' the animal.. The more emotional people can get. Many insects/spiders are predatory. Not many think the fly caught in a Web deserves a right to not be preyed upon. Or should be released by the spider. Will a spider not be predatory in the NS? Where do you draw the line on what is OK to be considered prey in the food chain? Larger animals do seem to evoke more concern for their welfare for some reason. 

Could be what has been said.. The media. Satan does has control over it to skew our minds away from reality. 

Additionally, we have to remember that each of these creatures serve a purpose. You mentioned spiders. Each one eats about a pound of insects a year. Without spiders to control the insect population, the air could become too thick to breathe without choking. Couldn’t the same be said about other animals too? Can the earth really sustain endless animals reproducing forever and ever without any sort of culling in their population? New scrolls will likely answer this, and I’m sure it will be in a way that complements the prophecy @Naturale quoted from Isaiah. Will the “bull and lion lying together” be the norm with occasional or seasonal hunting tolerated that we’ll just get used to? Will we be able to eat meat during those times? Would be nice for the variation in diet. Only Jehovah can say and we’ll find out eventually.

[BenJepthah]

45 minutes ago, Old said:

And since Jehovah saw that it is good, who are we to argue?

Dust mites need to live too!

Recently I had a slight crisis of conscience in this regard.  The recent hot weather has resulted in something of a home insect invasion for me. Mud dobbers (a type of spider hunting wasp that builds nests of mud ) began building nests in my dining room behind some wall art. 

     I couldn’t bring myself to just spray them . Mud dobbers never hurt anyone. So I applied the scriptural approach and waited for the adults to leave then closed all the windows for a day. Then removed the nests.   Like driving away the hen to harvest the eggs. Allowing the adults to build nests elsewhere. Sorry this is so off topic.

Edited July 19, 2019 by BenJepthah

[McKay]

I respect your conscience on this. I faced a similar situation when I worked as a cable TV installer. I often had to go into outside enclosures where wasps would build nests. Now, they’re just doing their job on this planet. Was it fair that in order for the people living in that house to watch TV and for the corporation I worked for to make money I had to spray to death all those insects? No, it was not fair. Did I do it anyway? Yes. Why? Because animal life is not as valuable as human life. Do me a favor. Scratch your nose....There was bacteria in your skin pores that you just killed by scratching. What about gut bacteria? Drinking a soda could kill them. Every time you walk on grass (or even pavement for that matter) you squash some tiny insect your eye didn’t see.

 

I know I’m going toward the extreme here, but let me ask you this: Is Jehovah going to ask back from you the “blood” you shed because you killed these helpless insects? Is he going to say, “Yes you preached to PEOPLE faithfully in order to save their lives, but because you inadvertently were responsible for the deaths of millions of bacteria, germs, and insects I just can’t let you into my new earth”? (Hint: Everyone reading that should be laughing at that very idea.) Here’s the thing, and let’s bring this full circle with veganism: Unless we are slaughtering non-human life for the thrill, sport, or joy of it, we are not offending our God by using animals as a resource.  We are simply using them the same as he did with Adam and Eve, Noah and his family, and the nation of Israel as clothing, food, and sacrifice, respectively (that means in the order that I said them). So, basically, go forth and eat what you want, wear whatever clothes that you want, or kill mosquitos all you want....but don’t get any sort of thrill or joy from any of those things and you should be fine.

 

(This post and the ridiculous statements made therein other than the very first sentence are facetious.) 

[Naturale]

I am stunned at some of the comments really.  The bible makes it so clear that peace and harmony will exist on every level in the new system including between animals.  Vicious beasts will be a thing of the past.  Hence why our artwork depicts peaceful scenes of paradise with a tiger or lion playing with a child next to the likes of a sheep.

[Naturale]

18 hours ago, ZDR said:

I gotcha. You bring up an interesting point, about people who have a hard time believing in God because nature is “cruel.” Says who? Who says it’s cruel? Humans? Why do we think that? Is it because we’re anthropomorphizing? As I said, humans in centuries past didn’t think this way. They didn’t see a lion hunting gazelle as “carnage.” It just was natural. So what changed? For my part, I think generations of children growing up watching cartoons of talking animals has changed the way we look at animals. That sounds ridiculous, I know, but if you think about it, we’re brought up in an environment where animals are often given human characteristics, feelings, and endeavors. It’s not too much of a stretch to start viewing treatment between animals as the same as treatment among humans. And if one human killing another is cruel, then so is one animal killing another. 

 

• g82 10/8 pp. 9-13
• When All Nature Will Be in Harmony

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Naturale

[McKay]

6 hours ago, Naturale said:

• g82 10/8 pp. 9-13
• When All Nature Will Be in Harmony

 

 

I appreciate you for sharing this with me. My previous comments are clearly in the wrong according to thus article. I think it's safe to say that I've allowed some of the world's thinking to affect my reasoning on this issue. Thank you for helping me bringing my thoughts more closely in line with Jehovah's.

[Hope]

6 hours ago, Naturale said:

I am stunned at some of the comments really.  The bible makes it so clear that peace and harmony will exist on every level in the new system including between animals.  Vicious beasts will be a thing of the past.  Hence why our artwork depicts peaceful scenes of paradise with a tiger or lion playing with a child next to the likes of a sheep.

Those are artistic depictions, not photographs of real scenes of the future. There will be peace between animals, humans, wild and domestic- but we never see a lion resting with a wildebeest in those illustrations. 

 

The scripture in Isaiah is most applicable to beasty personalities, I've always heard- not a blanket description of all animal behavior.

[Naturale]

1 hour ago, ZDR said:

 

You are welcome bro

[Naturale]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

Those are artistic depictions, not photographs of real scenes of the future. There will be peace between animals, humans, wild and domestic- but we never see a lion resting with a wildebeest in those illustrations. 

 

The scripture in Isaiah is most applicable to beasty personalities, I've always heard- not a blanket description of all animal behavior.

Yes the pictures in our publications are not photographs of the future as that would not be possible but they are not made up by the artist either.  They are based on what the bible teaches so it is what we teach our students and our children.  For eg the Teach your children brochure states "animals will be friends with one another and with us"

 

Most prophecies in the bible have  more than one meaning and fulfillment including literal ones.  It is more than reasonable to conclude that that in the restored Paradise Isaiah’s prophecy will have a further  literal fulfillment as well.

 

After all  according to Ephesians 1:8-10 Jehovah’s is to provide a righteous administration for all creation where everything will be brought back into full harmony with Jehovah according to his purpose.   Unity and peace will reign among all his creatures in heaven and on earth. 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Naturale

[Hope]

I suppose we'll see- if our attitudes gets changed or if the physical makeup and needs of millions of animals and their ecology gets changed.  🤷‍♀️  There is documented proof that grazing animals without their usual predators cause incredible damage to ecosystems (see: Yellowstone Park without wolves. )  It was working great 'til man stepped in with "better ideas".

https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with carnivores doing their thing- animals or human.  As long as humans aren't under attack, it's all good.

 

No problem with vegans/vegetarians either! 😎

[Naturale]

9 hours ago, Hope said:

 

 The proof you are talking about is in this system though according to how it is now.  What exists today is not what it was like in the paradise of Eden.  The bible teaches  the “restoration of all things.”   (Acts 3:21)  It isn't a problem for Jehovah to bring about peace and harmony according to His purpose.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Naturale

[Witness1970]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:49 AM, Hope said:

many view pets as more valuable than other human-

I have seen this also. Some people seriously put the value of animals above humans.

 

As Christians, we have to train our own conscience so that it lets us know what to do. If someone else has a different opinion on some subject, we should not be upset by what their conscience tells them is right. It is faith in God and faith in Jesus' and Jehovah's sacrifice that is important. We all can have different views of what the new system might be like but the truth is we just need to wait and see. We may all get some surprises. Some people say they don't like surprises, but what Jehovah does that might surprise us will be the perfect thing.

[Old]

I have had  trouble wrapping my mind around this: man sinned and for that reason animals started eating each other.

Apparently I have never realised how simple the truth can be when we are enlightened by God's Word.

Speaking of God's word, I could use the chapter and verse, so I can spoof this to others.

[McKay]

14 hours ago, Old said:

I have had  trouble wrapping my mind around this: man sinned and for that reason animals started eating each other.

I suppose the reason is two-fold: Man’s imperfection would mean greediness and violence and so the animals needed to be protected from horrible people, and also that the instability caused by human rebellion would necessitate predatory instincts to manage animal populations because couldn’t. We’ve seen that when certain species overwhelm an environment it can have a completely destabilizing affect on the people there as well as the ecosystem. Perhaps Jehovah modified animal behavior post-Flood so that the “ruining of the earth” didn’t happen ahead of His timeline and purpose? In my mind, all of this makes sense when we remember what Paul said about “all creation groaning together.” Just as much as we feel frustrated with our place in this system working soul-crushing cubicle jobs instead of fulfilling our original purpose (ie. gardening lol) all animal life must likewise “feel” frustrated at the abnormal lives they’re forced to live too. 

[Hope]

I guess I've never seen most animals' lives as abnormal.  As long as man isn't fooling around with them, it's all pretty good.  I have no problem with a predator/ prey situation. 

 

Again, when you consider how these animals were built, what else are they supposed to do. What about hawks, raptors, crocodiles, sharks, orcas, etc?  I just don't see them grazing..

[McKay]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

I guess I've never seen most animals' lives as abnormal.  As long as man isn't fooling around with them, it's all pretty good.  I have no problem with a predator/ prey situation. 

 

Again, when you consider how these animals were built, what else are they supposed to do. What about hawks, raptors, crocodiles, sharks, orcas, etc?  I just don't see them grazing..

I don't personally have a problem with it either. I often wonder how we often refer to the natural "balance" in nature -- even now. If things are already balanced, how can it be balanced further? Isn't balanced....balanced?

 

Yes, every organism is eventually eaten by something else, even plants and bacteria. But questions arise. Will spiders still eat mosquitos? Will possums still eat ticks? Certain animals seem perfectly adept -- dare I say designed -- to keep other animals in check. (I don't think this conflicts with Jehovah being a God of love anymore than Him telling the Israelites to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of animals, and sacrifices that didn't actually take away the sins of the one offering them! You might argue that sacrificing animals to cover human sins would be one matter, but the blood of animals was just to foreshadow Christ so those sacrifices and all those animal lives were just illustrative. Again, I have no problem with any of it. Jehovah is the Creator of all those things; he can do with them as he pleases.)

 

Either way, I'm looking forward to just how things get fixed and just how amazed I'll be when I see it. I'm sure I'll say, just like I do today when Jehovah answers one of my prayers, "Huh. I didn't even think of THAT!"

[ijsvogel]

22 hours ago, Hope said:

Again, when you consider how these animals were built, what else are they supposed to do. What about hawks, raptors, crocodiles, sharks, orcas, etc?  I just don't see them grazing..

In a wonderful conversation between Jehovah and Job, our Creator tells this about his own creations: Can you hunt prey for a lion Or satisfy the appetites of young lions 40 When they crouch in their lairs Or lie in ambush in their dens? (Job 38:39,40). And what about  the eagle? Job 39:30 Its young sip up blood;And wherever the slain are, there it is.”

 

Would this conversation be logical if Jehovah did create a lion just to eat grass? Or an eagle to eat some leaves? 

 

Even when a lion should eat meat in paradise doesn't mean there is no peace in paradise. There will be peace between people and between people and animals. The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;And a little boy will lead them. So when a wild animal is nearby people and their domestic animals, he isn't a wild animal for a while. Maybe he will hunt for prey after that visit to us 😊.